Offshore Collaboration
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We're thinking pretty seriously about giving a substantial piece of a new development project to an offshore development group. I've heard a lot of plusses and minuses about working 100% online with an offshore group. There are plenty of appealing groups, at least at first glance, working out of India and Eastern Europe. Does anybody here have an experience with this kind of setup? If so, I'd be interested in learning about the kind of problems you've had, and the best way, in retrospect, that they can be avoided. Also, what kind of collaboration tools do you use, Internet-based or otherwise, to integrate the offshore people into the larger group? We're pretty interested in trying this out, but it also seems a little scary. All and any insights would be appreciated. Lori
Lori, I have worked for the last two years as what you might be calling an "offshore developer", plus I have recontracted out work to others are "offshore". So possibly I have seen both sides of the problems. Whoever you deal with you must have an appreciation of there culture. And also human language differences and misinterpratation are a major problem. Also timezones are a problem when requiring direct contact. And you must modify your accounting system for payments, or the developers will quickly loose interest. I realise thes don't sound like programming/systems problems but human problems, However all the real problems are human. Solutions. 1. Learn a little about the people and culture you are working with. 2. Have a person in your team work as an English to English translator/interprator, (What is slightly ambiguous in English for a native English speaker can be have a total different meaning to a non USA English speaker. 3. Learn the Timezone differences, and setup a mutually acceptable daily contact time. 4. Get your accounting department to set up a "swift" payment system. (sending a surface-mail US cheque may take up to 3 months to be cleared, and the developers have to eat also). Tools, Sorry, I only work with finished classes,dll's,ocx's, and libs' thus I have never required any. It also saves on hassles. Regardz Colin Davies
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We're thinking pretty seriously about giving a substantial piece of a new development project to an offshore development group. I've heard a lot of plusses and minuses about working 100% online with an offshore group. There are plenty of appealing groups, at least at first glance, working out of India and Eastern Europe. Does anybody here have an experience with this kind of setup? If so, I'd be interested in learning about the kind of problems you've had, and the best way, in retrospect, that they can be avoided. Also, what kind of collaboration tools do you use, Internet-based or otherwise, to integrate the offshore people into the larger group? We're pretty interested in trying this out, but it also seems a little scary. All and any insights would be appreciated. Lori
Lori, I have also seen the two sides of offshore. I worked in France and we have a sub-contractor in Tunisia (Africa). But 5 years ago I decided to besome an "offshore" developer and moved to Tunis. So I lead an offshore development team. We use a leased line to access a "sub" LAN of our client. I agree with Colin but I think that the major problem is : When the client decide on minor changes of his specification sometimes forgot to mention it to us or he did it with some delay. So some troubles happen when we have to support some modification because of a “missing E-Mail”. So the key of success is to consider that the offshore team must be informed off all decision (even the minor ones) to be in phase and minimize delays and surprises. Feel free to contact me for more information. Regards Mouez MEMMI
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We're thinking pretty seriously about giving a substantial piece of a new development project to an offshore development group. I've heard a lot of plusses and minuses about working 100% online with an offshore group. There are plenty of appealing groups, at least at first glance, working out of India and Eastern Europe. Does anybody here have an experience with this kind of setup? If so, I'd be interested in learning about the kind of problems you've had, and the best way, in retrospect, that they can be avoided. Also, what kind of collaboration tools do you use, Internet-based or otherwise, to integrate the offshore people into the larger group? We're pretty interested in trying this out, but it also seems a little scary. All and any insights would be appreciated. Lori
Dear Lorrie, Hi !! I have never participated in this form of communication over internet and also this is the first time I am writing to somebody over a forum. But I am writing becoz I thought that I can be of some help to you. First of all, sub-contracting as an Idea itself is scary on thoeretical terms. I mean how can u give money, time and ur own work to somebody else to do. What if somebody sitting in Asia screws it off. That's is the question that pops up in the mind of anybody who is doing it for the first time. But when somebody, especially one who is sitting in America subcontracts a part or the whole of his work to some company in India and he gets amazing results both in terms of time and money..the experience is highly satisfying. I mean the results could be startling, believe me !! There is a very different work culture in India..especially the work-culture in software industry is very very different. I am talking in terms of India only because I am an Indian and I also have a good exposure to how a typical US company works becasue I am living in US for last 2 years and working for a matured US professinal company. I think there are a very very few chances that a US co. ever had a totally unsatisfying (disastrous) experience working with an Indian offshore setup. It worked perfectly when I sitting here worked for my Indian co, for an American co. It worked well when i was in Delhi a couple of years ago and worked for NEC Japan. And why won't it work well if u guys meet once after every major mile-stone is achieved and confidence is there. Everybody is a human and educated people are anyway on a sync. to start with !! Write to me if u want some more insight or any way I can be of some help to you. --Murty nmkmurty@hotmail.co
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Dear Lorrie, Hi !! I have never participated in this form of communication over internet and also this is the first time I am writing to somebody over a forum. But I am writing becoz I thought that I can be of some help to you. First of all, sub-contracting as an Idea itself is scary on thoeretical terms. I mean how can u give money, time and ur own work to somebody else to do. What if somebody sitting in Asia screws it off. That's is the question that pops up in the mind of anybody who is doing it for the first time. But when somebody, especially one who is sitting in America subcontracts a part or the whole of his work to some company in India and he gets amazing results both in terms of time and money..the experience is highly satisfying. I mean the results could be startling, believe me !! There is a very different work culture in India..especially the work-culture in software industry is very very different. I am talking in terms of India only because I am an Indian and I also have a good exposure to how a typical US company works becasue I am living in US for last 2 years and working for a matured US professinal company. I think there are a very very few chances that a US co. ever had a totally unsatisfying (disastrous) experience working with an Indian offshore setup. It worked perfectly when I sitting here worked for my Indian co, for an American co. It worked well when i was in Delhi a couple of years ago and worked for NEC Japan. And why won't it work well if u guys meet once after every major mile-stone is achieved and confidence is there. Everybody is a human and educated people are anyway on a sync. to start with !! Write to me if u want some more insight or any way I can be of some help to you. --Murty nmkmurty@hotmail.co
Picked up on this thread by accident. I will agree that overseas consulting has more upsides the down sides to it. This opinion is based on the fact that I am a consultant and I have worked with contractors and sub contractors for 3 years now. The main obstacle to some deals I encountered was culture. Specifically with India. I have had code; concepts and business sold (stole) out the back door by India programmers that I had NDA's and Non Competes signed with. The basic response I received when confronting the programmer(s) "Don't take it personally. Its just business." Every time, I was aghast at how removed these individuals were with regards to regret or apologies. In fact, they were anything but that. It was their god given spiritual right to exercise business away from me and over to them...regardless of legal contracts signed to prevent this. Bottom line, India produces great programmers but keep in mind that their culture provides for a different approach to business ethics. It's the old adage actually. If you have something that's valuable, try as best you can to protect your interest. With coding, that can be difficult at times and I have personally enjoyed my business relationships with Americans, Australians, Canadians and Germans. This letter may be skewed because I have been burnt several times in relationships I have had with India programmers but there was that same comment at the end of the road every time and it was always the same: "Don't take it personally, its only business". I take my business very personally. I am extremely selective on a persona by person basis. One other thought. The usage of under paid overseas programmers will inevitably have a negative effect on the industry. Just as with a countries import/export business and how it effects the GNP...a certain % of the programs being sold in any particular country should ideally be created in that country. With poverty level wages being paid for good programming, I have a feeling over a 25 years period that there will be some negative residual effects with the development of new technology. There will eventually be a lack of encouragement of the programming profession in world class economies and subsequently some of the worlds finest minds may be passed by. Assembly line production (in my opinion) will have a different effect of the programming industry then it did with the automobile. Massive 24 hour programming factories in countries where wages are compar
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Picked up on this thread by accident. I will agree that overseas consulting has more upsides the down sides to it. This opinion is based on the fact that I am a consultant and I have worked with contractors and sub contractors for 3 years now. The main obstacle to some deals I encountered was culture. Specifically with India. I have had code; concepts and business sold (stole) out the back door by India programmers that I had NDA's and Non Competes signed with. The basic response I received when confronting the programmer(s) "Don't take it personally. Its just business." Every time, I was aghast at how removed these individuals were with regards to regret or apologies. In fact, they were anything but that. It was their god given spiritual right to exercise business away from me and over to them...regardless of legal contracts signed to prevent this. Bottom line, India produces great programmers but keep in mind that their culture provides for a different approach to business ethics. It's the old adage actually. If you have something that's valuable, try as best you can to protect your interest. With coding, that can be difficult at times and I have personally enjoyed my business relationships with Americans, Australians, Canadians and Germans. This letter may be skewed because I have been burnt several times in relationships I have had with India programmers but there was that same comment at the end of the road every time and it was always the same: "Don't take it personally, its only business". I take my business very personally. I am extremely selective on a persona by person basis. One other thought. The usage of under paid overseas programmers will inevitably have a negative effect on the industry. Just as with a countries import/export business and how it effects the GNP...a certain % of the programs being sold in any particular country should ideally be created in that country. With poverty level wages being paid for good programming, I have a feeling over a 25 years period that there will be some negative residual effects with the development of new technology. There will eventually be a lack of encouragement of the programming profession in world class economies and subsequently some of the worlds finest minds may be passed by. Assembly line production (in my opinion) will have a different effect of the programming industry then it did with the automobile. Massive 24 hour programming factories in countries where wages are compar
Weird, But in my other post where I mentioned Culture, I was in particular thinking of India, and for the particular reason you mentioned . "Don't take it personally. Its just business." I don't contract work out to India anymore. Actually HR I never wished to name India as I thought it was only Myself that continually had bad experiences there. Good countries to deal with I've found are Thailand and China. China in particular seems to be strting more cooperative type programmers groups. I like this as I believe the programmers will recieve a better share of the returns than in a sweatshop type environment
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Weird, But in my other post where I mentioned Culture, I was in particular thinking of India, and for the particular reason you mentioned . "Don't take it personally. Its just business." I don't contract work out to India anymore. Actually HR I never wished to name India as I thought it was only Myself that continually had bad experiences there. Good countries to deal with I've found are Thailand and China. China in particular seems to be strting more cooperative type programmers groups. I like this as I believe the programmers will recieve a better share of the returns than in a sweatshop type environment
Wow.... Thats something. Yes. It is apparent that India is burning many bridges. By the way, just curious. Do you get bombed with solicitations for programmers in India as much as I do? The word culture is really just another way of saying, They "F_ck you hard as soon as the door of possibility opens." I am a tad resentfull too that major corporations such as Citigroup have these sweat shops writing their programs. Its weird. They try and Pump up the stock by spending money over seas. Something seems inherintly wrong with that formula. Ya know?? Id love to get some contacts in China and Thailand. Australia really is stuffed with talent too. A US dollar over there is almost twice their dollar. How do the people in China and Thailand work regarding $$$$. Are your deals all based on US currency?
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Wow.... Thats something. Yes. It is apparent that India is burning many bridges. By the way, just curious. Do you get bombed with solicitations for programmers in India as much as I do? The word culture is really just another way of saying, They "F_ck you hard as soon as the door of possibility opens." I am a tad resentfull too that major corporations such as Citigroup have these sweat shops writing their programs. Its weird. They try and Pump up the stock by spending money over seas. Something seems inherintly wrong with that formula. Ya know?? Id love to get some contacts in China and Thailand. Australia really is stuffed with talent too. A US dollar over there is almost twice their dollar. How do the people in China and Thailand work regarding $$$$. Are your deals all based on US currency?
HR, I'm not sure your making the Aussie's happy by saying they're "Stuffed with talent" ;) Chris will certainly be the definitive judge of this though.
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Wow.... Thats something. Yes. It is apparent that India is burning many bridges. By the way, just curious. Do you get bombed with solicitations for programmers in India as much as I do? The word culture is really just another way of saying, They "F_ck you hard as soon as the door of possibility opens." I am a tad resentfull too that major corporations such as Citigroup have these sweat shops writing their programs. Its weird. They try and Pump up the stock by spending money over seas. Something seems inherintly wrong with that formula. Ya know?? Id love to get some contacts in China and Thailand. Australia really is stuffed with talent too. A US dollar over there is almost twice their dollar. How do the people in China and Thailand work regarding $$$$. Are your deals all based on US currency?
HR, yep all deals are based in US dollars. that works out fine as I only seem to work for US companies, I'm actually in New Zealand which has a lower currency rate than Australia. I enjoy getting paid in US $ but I think programmers salaries are relative. As it is getting easier to work across the net , employers have to compete with US salary levels. But there are big taxation advantages for me working in US earned currency as well. No I don't get bombarded from programmers from India looking for work, I actually have a problem with east europeans looking for Artistic Contracts.(Long Story) Most of my contacts were made when CodeGuru had there own Jobs message - board. >>>> How do the people in China and Thailand work regarding $$$$. They are very ecomomical and reliable. I generally ask for a quote and they give me a good price always. It's always difficult with R&D to work out what is "fair". And generally Price isn't the only factor when arranging work as quality and time also equally important. HR, I also suggest if you are contracting piece work out, To consider breaking the work into smaller pieces. Good luck,
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HR, I'm not sure your making the Aussie's happy by saying they're "Stuffed with talent" ;) Chris will certainly be the definitive judge of this though.
?????? I am actually applauding the IQ of Ausie programmers. Theres a perfect translation problem for ya! ;-
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?????? I am actually applauding the IQ of Ausie programmers. Theres a perfect translation problem for ya! ;-
>>I am actually applauding the IQ of Ausie programmers. Oh goodness, don't let Chris read this ..