The next time...
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Le Centriste wrote:
they say that the overall system is lousy
Yet take advantage of it when needed. :|
Le Centriste wrote:
Be careful with this figure. It does not mean that 1 out of 7 Canadians go to the U.S. for healthcare.
My reading comprehension skills are fine. ;)
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Yet take advantage of it when needed
You object to Canadians pumping money in to your health system ? The US system is broken because it only treats those who can pay. The Canadian system is broken because it insists on not providing a better level of care than what they can offer for free.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Yet take advantage of it when needed
You object to Canadians pumping money in to your health system ? The US system is broken because it only treats those who can pay. The Canadian system is broken because it insists on not providing a better level of care than what they can offer for free.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Not if there's any truth to the content of a recent email forwarded to me, supposedly from a resident of Canada to relatives in the USA. The email (obviously I can't vouch for the accuracy) First of all: 1) The health care plan in Canada is not free. We pay a premium every month of $96. for Shirley and I to be covered. Sounds great eh? What they don't tell you is how much we pay in taxes to keep the health care system afloat. I am personally in the 55% tax bracket. Yes 55% of my earnings go to taxes. A large portion of that and I am not sure of the exact amount goes directly to health care - our #1 expense. 2) I would not classify what we have as health care plan, it is more like a health diagnosis system. You can get into to see a doctor quick enough so he can tell you "yes indeed you are sick or you need an operation" but now the challenge becomes getting treated or operated on. We have waiting lists out the ying yang some as much as 2 years down the road. 3) Rather than fix what is wrong with you the usual tactic in Canada is to prescribe drugs. Have a pain - here is a drug to take - not what is causing the pain and why. No time for checking you out because it is more important to move as many patients thru as possible each hour for Government reimbursement 4) Many Canadians do not have a family Doctor. 5) Don't require emergency treatment as you may wait for hours in the emergency room waiting for treatment. 6) Shirley's dad cut his hand on a power saw a few weeks back and it required that his hand be put in a splint - to our surprise we had to pay $125. for a splint because it is not covered under health care plus we have to pay $60 for each visit for him to check it out each week. 7) Shirley's cousin was diagnosed with a heart blockage. Put on a waiting list. Died before he could get treatment. 8) Government allots so many operations per year. When that is done no more operations, unless you go to your local newspaper and plead your case and embarrass the government then money suddenly appears. 9) The Government takes great pride in telling us how much more they are increasing the funding for health care but waiting lists never get shorter. Government just keeps throwing money at the problem but it never goes away. But they are good at finding new ways to tax us, but they don't call it a tax anymore it is now a user fee. 10) My mother needs an operation for a blockage in her leg but because she is a smoker they will not do it. Despite her and my fathe
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Yet take advantage of it when needed
You object to Canadians pumping money in to your health system ? The US system is broken because it only treats those who can pay. The Canadian system is broken because it insists on not providing a better level of care than what they can offer for free.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
The US system is broken because it only treats those who can pay
Doctors in Australia work without pay?
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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...a Canadian starts up about how wonderful their healthcare system is and how lousy the US system is. Canada's Expectant Moms Heading to U.S. to Deliver[^] "The Canadian healthcare system has used the United States as a safety net for years," said Michael Turner of the Cato Institute. "In fact, overall about one out of every seven Canadian physicians sends someone to the United States every year for treatment." :doh:
From the article: "is one of at least 40 mothers or their babies who've been airlifted from British Columbia to the U.S. this year" WOW! 40 mothers in a year? That's huge, it's an invasion! They're going to occupy the whole United States this way! Call the border patrol! :laugh: "FOX News" Need to say more?:rolleyes: -- modified at 19:57 Wednesday 10th October, 2007 There have been more than 40 000 births per year in British Columbia per year since 2002[^]. 40 in 40000 is a huge percentage, indeed. :)
Of all forms of sexual aberration, the most unnatural is abstinence.
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Yet take advantage of it when needed.
They don't take advantage of the "system", they just pay to get treated, so they put money in the "system", they don't take advantage of it. They would if they did not pay to get treated.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
My reading comprehension skills are fine.
I have no doubt. I wrote that so people like Red don't jump on the bandwagon and say that 1 out of 7 physicians send all their patients to the U.S. ;) Btw, I heard the other day that some people are now going to India to get treated because they cannot afford American doctors. They say that even with the hospital, doctor, operation, hotel, and plane fees, they can get treated for a fraction of the price they would have to pay in America. The story does not say if they get an equal quality treatment, though.
----- You seem eager to impose your preference of preventing others from imposing their preferences on others. -- Red Stateler, Master of Circular Reasoning and other fallacies If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. -- Unknown God is the only being who, to rule, does not need to exist. -- Charles Baudelaire
Le Centriste wrote:
They don't take advantage of the "system", they just pay to get treated
No - the system is incapable of providing the required services and uses the US as an outlet. The reports of various Canadian mothers going to the US for delivery all state that there is no available space in the Canadian system and they are sent to the US. The Canadian system is picking up the tab for these stays - not the patients. So in a very real sense the US system is the safety valve on our system.
I'm pretty sure I would not like to live in a world in which I would never be offended. I am absolutely certain I don't want to live in a world in which you would never be offended. Dave
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Le Centriste wrote:
They don't take advantage of the "system", they just pay to get treated
No - the system is incapable of providing the required services and uses the US as an outlet. The reports of various Canadian mothers going to the US for delivery all state that there is no available space in the Canadian system and they are sent to the US. The Canadian system is picking up the tab for these stays - not the patients. So in a very real sense the US system is the safety valve on our system.
I'm pretty sure I would not like to live in a world in which I would never be offended. I am absolutely certain I don't want to live in a world in which you would never be offended. Dave
But we are not exploiting the U.S. healthcare system. And if the U.S. was not there, we would go elsewhere. We go to U.S. because they are at hand. And they don't give it for free.
----- You seem eager to impose your preference of preventing others from imposing their preferences on others. -- Red Stateler, Master of Circular Reasoning and other fallacies If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. -- Unknown God is the only being who, to rule, does not need to exist. -- Charles Baudelaire
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Not if there's any truth to the content of a recent email forwarded to me, supposedly from a resident of Canada to relatives in the USA. The email (obviously I can't vouch for the accuracy) First of all: 1) The health care plan in Canada is not free. We pay a premium every month of $96. for Shirley and I to be covered. Sounds great eh? What they don't tell you is how much we pay in taxes to keep the health care system afloat. I am personally in the 55% tax bracket. Yes 55% of my earnings go to taxes. A large portion of that and I am not sure of the exact amount goes directly to health care - our #1 expense. 2) I would not classify what we have as health care plan, it is more like a health diagnosis system. You can get into to see a doctor quick enough so he can tell you "yes indeed you are sick or you need an operation" but now the challenge becomes getting treated or operated on. We have waiting lists out the ying yang some as much as 2 years down the road. 3) Rather than fix what is wrong with you the usual tactic in Canada is to prescribe drugs. Have a pain - here is a drug to take - not what is causing the pain and why. No time for checking you out because it is more important to move as many patients thru as possible each hour for Government reimbursement 4) Many Canadians do not have a family Doctor. 5) Don't require emergency treatment as you may wait for hours in the emergency room waiting for treatment. 6) Shirley's dad cut his hand on a power saw a few weeks back and it required that his hand be put in a splint - to our surprise we had to pay $125. for a splint because it is not covered under health care plus we have to pay $60 for each visit for him to check it out each week. 7) Shirley's cousin was diagnosed with a heart blockage. Put on a waiting list. Died before he could get treatment. 8) Government allots so many operations per year. When that is done no more operations, unless you go to your local newspaper and plead your case and embarrass the government then money suddenly appears. 9) The Government takes great pride in telling us how much more they are increasing the funding for health care but waiting lists never get shorter. Government just keeps throwing money at the problem but it never goes away. But they are good at finding new ways to tax us, but they don't call it a tax anymore it is now a user fee. 10) My mother needs an operation for a blockage in her leg but because she is a smoker they will not do it. Despite her and my fathe
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Sounds great eh?
Well, you can vouch for the email coming from Canadians, at least.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
I am personally in the 55% tax bracket.
Bloody hell. I complain often about paying 48%, or whatever our top bracket now is, but I'm now paying 40% or so ( they moved the brackets at last ).
Mike Gaskey wrote:
We have waiting lists out the ying yang some as much as 2 years down the road.
Precisely my point. We have waiting list problems too, but they are lessened by people on good incomes ( like me ) electing to pay for health insurance and to use the private system.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Many Canadians do not have a family Doctor.
Whch makes them retards, surely ?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
I can spend what money I have left after taxes on booze, cigarettes, junk food and anything else that could kill me but I am not allowed by law to spend my money on getting an operation I need because that would be jumping the queue.
Again, this is my core complaint about the Canadian system, they seem hell bent on being 'not the US', when they should just do what works. Comments on cost are irrelevant, health care should cost *something*, otherwise it gets clogged with hypocondriacs with nothing to stop them from going. And, of course I pay for Medicare, it's 2% on top of my tax bill. I didn't think the health fairies come to countries with publich health care.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Oh did I mention that immigrants are covered automatically at tax payer expense having never contributed a dollar to the system and pay no premiums?
To immigrate into most countries, you need a job, I know Nish needed to prove he was working while in Canada. Which, by definition, means he contributed to the system. AND a visit to the doctor was costing him $200 or something as he'd not been there long enough to get free care. Makes the rest of this smell like BS as well.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Christian Graus wrote:
The US system is broken because it only treats those who can pay
Doctors in Australia work without pay?
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
You're being deliberately obtuse. As I'm sure you are aware, we have a public health system ( and a private one, too ). I pay an extra 2% Medicare levy on top of my taxes. The doctor gets paid by Medicare out of my visit. I can elect to go to what's called a bulk billing doctor, where I pay nothing, or I can go to a doctor who charges more than the prescribed fee. The Medicare fee is $32, my doctor charges $55 and I get the $32 back from Medicare. Not claiming our system is perfect, but I think we do a better job than the US, or Canada.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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You're being deliberately obtuse. As I'm sure you are aware, we have a public health system ( and a private one, too ). I pay an extra 2% Medicare levy on top of my taxes. The doctor gets paid by Medicare out of my visit. I can elect to go to what's called a bulk billing doctor, where I pay nothing, or I can go to a doctor who charges more than the prescribed fee. The Medicare fee is $32, my doctor charges $55 and I get the $32 back from Medicare. Not claiming our system is perfect, but I think we do a better job than the US, or Canada.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
I would certainly prefer your system over that of Canada's. But my preference to is get both private and public insurance out of the equation and allow all medical spending go directly to the mdeical industry via free market principles, with no intervening bureaucratic infrastructure sucking up health care dollars. I am opposed to any system in which I am expected to pay anyone other than an actual doctor for my health care.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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I would certainly prefer your system over that of Canada's. But my preference to is get both private and public insurance out of the equation and allow all medical spending go directly to the mdeical industry via free market principles, with no intervening bureaucratic infrastructure sucking up health care dollars. I am opposed to any system in which I am expected to pay anyone other than an actual doctor for my health care.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
We have subsidised medicine also, certain medicines are guarenteed not to cost more than $15 or somethng. The government pays the rest. I wonder how much this serves to jack up drug prices, but I also wonder at how many drugs would naturally price themselves in such a way that there would be no advantage in developing them. I essentially pay my doctor, my taxes more than cover my visits to the doctor, and the extra I pay helps provide health care for those who cannot pay themselves. I am in favour of a system that cares for it's weakest members.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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We have subsidised medicine also, certain medicines are guarenteed not to cost more than $15 or somethng. The government pays the rest. I wonder how much this serves to jack up drug prices, but I also wonder at how many drugs would naturally price themselves in such a way that there would be no advantage in developing them. I essentially pay my doctor, my taxes more than cover my visits to the doctor, and the extra I pay helps provide health care for those who cannot pay themselves. I am in favour of a system that cares for it's weakest members.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
I am in favour of a system that cares for it's weakest members.
As am I. But I don't think that translates into government bureaucracies. I think the more efficiently the medical system operates (which means minimizing bureaucratic overhead of any kind) the higher the probability of caring for the weakest members simply by means of human compassion.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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...a Canadian starts up about how wonderful their healthcare system is and how lousy the US system is. Canada's Expectant Moms Heading to U.S. to Deliver[^] "The Canadian healthcare system has used the United States as a safety net for years," said Michael Turner of the Cato Institute. "In fact, overall about one out of every seven Canadian physicians sends someone to the United States every year for treatment." :doh:
I love watching soapbox reasoning - find the worst example of something with a similar name and tear it to pieces, therefore proving your point. Using this 'reasoning' one can 'prove' many things: Republics are bad (Saddam led the Republic of Iraq) Republicans are bad (insert your favourite Republican loon here) Democrats are bad (insert your favourite Democrat loon here) Prescription Drugs are bad (insert your favourite fatal side effect / drug interaction story here) 1=2 (I'm sure I saw it on a website somewhere) ... Where is true American innovation. Why don't folks try to identify the faults in the current system and see if it could be improved? Why would Americans even consider adopting a failed system? All I see here is bigotry and selfishness - a stubborn refusal to help those without health insurance. You happily allow your taxes be spent to build infrastructure to help power your economy, to educate the masses as this helps the economy, has anyone here even considered that a healthy, educated population may bring even more economic benefits. Of course you don't have to follow any other model, but why don't you see what you can come up with? Of course, some would say that looking after those who can't help themselves should be rewarding in itself.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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Christian Graus wrote:
I am in favour of a system that cares for it's weakest members.
As am I. But I don't think that translates into government bureaucracies. I think the more efficiently the medical system operates (which means minimizing bureaucratic overhead of any kind) the higher the probability of caring for the weakest members simply by means of human compassion.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
Stan Shannon wrote:
caring for the weakest members simply by means of human compassion
Yeah, you mentioned that a week or two back in another thread... something about receiving handouts from your neighbours but not from the government...
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
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I would certainly prefer your system over that of Canada's. But my preference to is get both private and public insurance out of the equation and allow all medical spending go directly to the mdeical industry via free market principles, with no intervening bureaucratic infrastructure sucking up health care dollars. I am opposed to any system in which I am expected to pay anyone other than an actual doctor for my health care.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
Stan Shannon wrote:
all medical spending go directly to the mdeical industry via free market principles
I don't think this is a good starting premise for designing a health system and I suspect that this is one of the failings of the current US system. The free market works to maximize profit, you make profit in the medical industry by providing services and selling drugs, so I suspect that those that can afford health care in the US are over serviced and over prescribed. (I can't prove this - anecdotal evidence only). To make the free market system work you need to tie profit to health - no-one seems to have done this to date. I'm not saying any other system is particularly better at this - simply pointing out that the free market alone has never delivered health.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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Stan Shannon wrote:
caring for the weakest members simply by means of human compassion
Yeah, you mentioned that a week or two back in another thread... something about receiving handouts from your neighbours but not from the government...
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
_Damian S_ wrote:
Yeah, you mentioned that a week or two back in another thread... something about receiving handouts from your neighbours but not from the government...
Precisely, the very concept of being being an American is defined by being independent of government in your personal life.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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_Damian S_ wrote:
Yeah, you mentioned that a week or two back in another thread... something about receiving handouts from your neighbours but not from the government...
Precisely, the very concept of being being an American is defined by being independent of government in your personal life.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
So you have to live next to a surgeon ? I agree in principle that govermnet involvement encourages waste, I said as much. It's just not that simple IMO.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Yet take advantage of it when needed
You object to Canadians pumping money in to your health system ? The US system is broken because it only treats those who can pay. The Canadian system is broken because it insists on not providing a better level of care than what they can offer for free.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
You object to Canadians pumping money in to your health system ?
Where did I say I objected? I merely pointed out that our "broken" system is being used by the same people who criticize it.
Christian Graus wrote:
what they can offer for free.
Free, huh? :laugh:
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Stan Shannon wrote:
all medical spending go directly to the mdeical industry via free market principles
I don't think this is a good starting premise for designing a health system and I suspect that this is one of the failings of the current US system. The free market works to maximize profit, you make profit in the medical industry by providing services and selling drugs, so I suspect that those that can afford health care in the US are over serviced and over prescribed. (I can't prove this - anecdotal evidence only). To make the free market system work you need to tie profit to health - no-one seems to have done this to date. I'm not saying any other system is particularly better at this - simply pointing out that the free market alone has never delivered health.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
cp9876 wrote:
The free market works to maximize profit, you make profit in the medical industry by providing services and selling drugs, so I suspect that those that can afford health care in the US are over serviced and over prescribed.
I'm actually pretty sure that purposefully making someone sick in order to increase profits would be considered extortion of some kind and therefore covered by any number of perfectly reasonable laws. Otherwise, a person should be free to purchase all the care they personally deem necessary. In fact, that would be an excellent way to provide care for the 'weakest members' of society. The more profit the medical industry makes, the more easily and efficiently it could provide care for those with less means to pay. If rich hypocondriacts want to waste their money, why should that be a concern?
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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I love watching soapbox reasoning - find the worst example of something with a similar name and tear it to pieces, therefore proving your point. Using this 'reasoning' one can 'prove' many things: Republics are bad (Saddam led the Republic of Iraq) Republicans are bad (insert your favourite Republican loon here) Democrats are bad (insert your favourite Democrat loon here) Prescription Drugs are bad (insert your favourite fatal side effect / drug interaction story here) 1=2 (I'm sure I saw it on a website somewhere) ... Where is true American innovation. Why don't folks try to identify the faults in the current system and see if it could be improved? Why would Americans even consider adopting a failed system? All I see here is bigotry and selfishness - a stubborn refusal to help those without health insurance. You happily allow your taxes be spent to build infrastructure to help power your economy, to educate the masses as this helps the economy, has anyone here even considered that a healthy, educated population may bring even more economic benefits. Of course you don't have to follow any other model, but why don't you see what you can come up with? Of course, some would say that looking after those who can't help themselves should be rewarding in itself.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
cp9876 wrote:
Where is true American innovation. Why don't folks try to identify the faults in the current system and see if it could be improved? Why would Americans even consider adopting a failed system?
Everyone's too busy wearing flag pins and being "more patriotic than you are" while laughing about Britney Spears and talking about how OJ didn't do it. Oh, and there's that war thing. That's not as important as Britney Spears though. [/end rant]
The early bird who catches the worm works for someone who comes in late and owns the worm farm. -- Travis McGee
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I love watching soapbox reasoning - find the worst example of something with a similar name and tear it to pieces, therefore proving your point. Using this 'reasoning' one can 'prove' many things: Republics are bad (Saddam led the Republic of Iraq) Republicans are bad (insert your favourite Republican loon here) Democrats are bad (insert your favourite Democrat loon here) Prescription Drugs are bad (insert your favourite fatal side effect / drug interaction story here) 1=2 (I'm sure I saw it on a website somewhere) ... Where is true American innovation. Why don't folks try to identify the faults in the current system and see if it could be improved? Why would Americans even consider adopting a failed system? All I see here is bigotry and selfishness - a stubborn refusal to help those without health insurance. You happily allow your taxes be spent to build infrastructure to help power your economy, to educate the masses as this helps the economy, has anyone here even considered that a healthy, educated population may bring even more economic benefits. Of course you don't have to follow any other model, but why don't you see what you can come up with? Of course, some would say that looking after those who can't help themselves should be rewarding in itself.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
cp9876 wrote:
All I see here is bigotry and selfishness - a stubborn refusal to help those without health insurance. You happily allow your taxes be spent to build infrastructure to help power your economy, to educate the masses as this helps the economy, has anyone here even considered that a healthy, educated population may bring even more economic benefits.
You'll be banned from the SB if you continue to make sensible points such as the one above... ;P Fantastic post.
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!