The next time...
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_Damian S_ wrote:
Yeah, you mentioned that a week or two back in another thread... something about receiving handouts from your neighbours but not from the government...
Precisely, the very concept of being being an American is defined by being independent of government in your personal life.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
So you have to live next to a surgeon ? I agree in principle that govermnet involvement encourages waste, I said as much. It's just not that simple IMO.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Stan Shannon wrote:
all medical spending go directly to the mdeical industry via free market principles
I don't think this is a good starting premise for designing a health system and I suspect that this is one of the failings of the current US system. The free market works to maximize profit, you make profit in the medical industry by providing services and selling drugs, so I suspect that those that can afford health care in the US are over serviced and over prescribed. (I can't prove this - anecdotal evidence only). To make the free market system work you need to tie profit to health - no-one seems to have done this to date. I'm not saying any other system is particularly better at this - simply pointing out that the free market alone has never delivered health.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
cp9876 wrote:
The free market works to maximize profit, you make profit in the medical industry by providing services and selling drugs, so I suspect that those that can afford health care in the US are over serviced and over prescribed.
I'm actually pretty sure that purposefully making someone sick in order to increase profits would be considered extortion of some kind and therefore covered by any number of perfectly reasonable laws. Otherwise, a person should be free to purchase all the care they personally deem necessary. In fact, that would be an excellent way to provide care for the 'weakest members' of society. The more profit the medical industry makes, the more easily and efficiently it could provide care for those with less means to pay. If rich hypocondriacts want to waste their money, why should that be a concern?
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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I love watching soapbox reasoning - find the worst example of something with a similar name and tear it to pieces, therefore proving your point. Using this 'reasoning' one can 'prove' many things: Republics are bad (Saddam led the Republic of Iraq) Republicans are bad (insert your favourite Republican loon here) Democrats are bad (insert your favourite Democrat loon here) Prescription Drugs are bad (insert your favourite fatal side effect / drug interaction story here) 1=2 (I'm sure I saw it on a website somewhere) ... Where is true American innovation. Why don't folks try to identify the faults in the current system and see if it could be improved? Why would Americans even consider adopting a failed system? All I see here is bigotry and selfishness - a stubborn refusal to help those without health insurance. You happily allow your taxes be spent to build infrastructure to help power your economy, to educate the masses as this helps the economy, has anyone here even considered that a healthy, educated population may bring even more economic benefits. Of course you don't have to follow any other model, but why don't you see what you can come up with? Of course, some would say that looking after those who can't help themselves should be rewarding in itself.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
cp9876 wrote:
All I see here is bigotry and selfishness - a stubborn refusal to help those without health insurance. You happily allow your taxes be spent to build infrastructure to help power your economy, to educate the masses as this helps the economy, has anyone here even considered that a healthy, educated population may bring even more economic benefits.
You'll be banned from the SB if you continue to make sensible points such as the one above... ;P Fantastic post.
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Yet take advantage of it when needed
You object to Canadians pumping money in to your health system ? The US system is broken because it only treats those who can pay. The Canadian system is broken because it insists on not providing a better level of care than what they can offer for free.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
You object to Canadians pumping money in to your health system ?
Where did I say I objected? I merely pointed out that our "broken" system is being used by the same people who criticize it.
Christian Graus wrote:
what they can offer for free.
Free, huh? :laugh:
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I love watching soapbox reasoning - find the worst example of something with a similar name and tear it to pieces, therefore proving your point. Using this 'reasoning' one can 'prove' many things: Republics are bad (Saddam led the Republic of Iraq) Republicans are bad (insert your favourite Republican loon here) Democrats are bad (insert your favourite Democrat loon here) Prescription Drugs are bad (insert your favourite fatal side effect / drug interaction story here) 1=2 (I'm sure I saw it on a website somewhere) ... Where is true American innovation. Why don't folks try to identify the faults in the current system and see if it could be improved? Why would Americans even consider adopting a failed system? All I see here is bigotry and selfishness - a stubborn refusal to help those without health insurance. You happily allow your taxes be spent to build infrastructure to help power your economy, to educate the masses as this helps the economy, has anyone here even considered that a healthy, educated population may bring even more economic benefits. Of course you don't have to follow any other model, but why don't you see what you can come up with? Of course, some would say that looking after those who can't help themselves should be rewarding in itself.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
cp9876 wrote:
Where is true American innovation. Why don't folks try to identify the faults in the current system and see if it could be improved? Why would Americans even consider adopting a failed system?
Everyone's too busy wearing flag pins and being "more patriotic than you are" while laughing about Britney Spears and talking about how OJ didn't do it. Oh, and there's that war thing. That's not as important as Britney Spears though. [/end rant]
The early bird who catches the worm works for someone who comes in late and owns the worm farm. -- Travis McGee
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_Damian S_ wrote:
Yeah, you mentioned that a week or two back in another thread... something about receiving handouts from your neighbours but not from the government...
Precisely, the very concept of being being an American is defined by being independent of government in your personal life.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
Stan Shannon wrote:
independent of government in your personal life
It scares me a little that you truly believe your interpretation of that statement... I prefer to run with this version - the government shouldn't be able to control my personal life, but if they are willing to use the taxes that I pay to provide services to the citizens, then that's fine with me!!
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
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I love watching soapbox reasoning - find the worst example of something with a similar name and tear it to pieces, therefore proving your point. Using this 'reasoning' one can 'prove' many things: Republics are bad (Saddam led the Republic of Iraq) Republicans are bad (insert your favourite Republican loon here) Democrats are bad (insert your favourite Democrat loon here) Prescription Drugs are bad (insert your favourite fatal side effect / drug interaction story here) 1=2 (I'm sure I saw it on a website somewhere) ... Where is true American innovation. Why don't folks try to identify the faults in the current system and see if it could be improved? Why would Americans even consider adopting a failed system? All I see here is bigotry and selfishness - a stubborn refusal to help those without health insurance. You happily allow your taxes be spent to build infrastructure to help power your economy, to educate the masses as this helps the economy, has anyone here even considered that a healthy, educated population may bring even more economic benefits. Of course you don't have to follow any other model, but why don't you see what you can come up with? Of course, some would say that looking after those who can't help themselves should be rewarding in itself.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
cp9876 wrote:
You happily allow your taxes be spent to build infrastructure to help power your economy, to educate the masses as this helps the economy,
Actually, our education system is a better argument for not allowing our government to control our health care, and our infrastructure is largely built by lowest bid private contractors. I'm pretty sure I don't want my health care to be provided by the lowest bidder or a union of government bureaucrats.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
independent of government in your personal life
It scares me a little that you truly believe your interpretation of that statement... I prefer to run with this version - the government shouldn't be able to control my personal life, but if they are willing to use the taxes that I pay to provide services to the citizens, then that's fine with me!!
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
_Damian S_ wrote:
It scares me a little that you truly believe your interpretation of that statement...
Than don't live in my country. Problem solved.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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I love watching soapbox reasoning - find the worst example of something with a similar name and tear it to pieces, therefore proving your point. Using this 'reasoning' one can 'prove' many things: Republics are bad (Saddam led the Republic of Iraq) Republicans are bad (insert your favourite Republican loon here) Democrats are bad (insert your favourite Democrat loon here) Prescription Drugs are bad (insert your favourite fatal side effect / drug interaction story here) 1=2 (I'm sure I saw it on a website somewhere) ... Where is true American innovation. Why don't folks try to identify the faults in the current system and see if it could be improved? Why would Americans even consider adopting a failed system? All I see here is bigotry and selfishness - a stubborn refusal to help those without health insurance. You happily allow your taxes be spent to build infrastructure to help power your economy, to educate the masses as this helps the economy, has anyone here even considered that a healthy, educated population may bring even more economic benefits. Of course you don't have to follow any other model, but why don't you see what you can come up with? Of course, some would say that looking after those who can't help themselves should be rewarding in itself.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
cp9876 wrote:
All I see here is bigotry and selfishness - a stubborn refusal to help those without health insurance.
Then open your eyes! None of us refuse to help Americans without health insurance. We simply believe that the federal government is not the best tool for the job. Sheesh! Why are you Australians so arrogant to think your way is the only way to do anything?
cp9876 wrote:
Of course you don't have to follow any other model, but why don't you see what you can come up with?
Why can't you just let us follow our own path without crying about it?
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_Damian S_ wrote:
It scares me a little that you truly believe your interpretation of that statement...
Than don't live in my country. Problem solved.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Than don't live in my country. Problem solved.
:ignores obvious grammatical error: I don't, and I don't plan to either!! I'm still reeling from your attitude that you'd rather someone with cancer die than have your taxes pay for medical treatment for them... Are there many more that think like this where you live?
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
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From the article: "is one of at least 40 mothers or their babies who've been airlifted from British Columbia to the U.S. this year" WOW! 40 mothers in a year? That's huge, it's an invasion! They're going to occupy the whole United States this way! Call the border patrol! :laugh: "FOX News" Need to say more?:rolleyes: -- modified at 19:57 Wednesday 10th October, 2007 There have been more than 40 000 births per year in British Columbia per year since 2002[^]. 40 in 40000 is a huge percentage, indeed. :)
Of all forms of sexual aberration, the most unnatural is abstinence.
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cp9876 wrote:
All I see here is bigotry and selfishness - a stubborn refusal to help those without health insurance.
Then open your eyes! None of us refuse to help Americans without health insurance. We simply believe that the federal government is not the best tool for the job. Sheesh! Why are you Australians so arrogant to think your way is the only way to do anything?
cp9876 wrote:
Of course you don't have to follow any other model, but why don't you see what you can come up with?
Why can't you just let us follow our own path without crying about it?
Mike Mullikin wrote:
None of us refuse to help Americans without health insurance.
Your mate Stan is on record saying he'd rather people with cancer die than be supplied with treatment by the government... sounds a lot like a refusal to me...
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Why are you Australians so arrogant
Because you *think* you live in the greatest country on earth... we *KNOW* we do... ;)
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
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You really need to work on your reading comprehension. Where did I even mention any of the crap your spouting?
I believe he was quoting the article... who is it that needs to work on their reading comprehension?
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
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cp9876 wrote:
The free market works to maximize profit, you make profit in the medical industry by providing services and selling drugs, so I suspect that those that can afford health care in the US are over serviced and over prescribed.
I'm actually pretty sure that purposefully making someone sick in order to increase profits would be considered extortion of some kind and therefore covered by any number of perfectly reasonable laws. Otherwise, a person should be free to purchase all the care they personally deem necessary. In fact, that would be an excellent way to provide care for the 'weakest members' of society. The more profit the medical industry makes, the more easily and efficiently it could provide care for those with less means to pay. If rich hypocondriacts want to waste their money, why should that be a concern?
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
I think your view of the medical industry is fairly naive. Just some examples: We recently had a SB thread about banning ads for formula from maternity wards, and it emerged that rates of breastfeeding in the US were as low as 25%. This is clearly the 'success' of formula marketing campaigns, clearly undertaken to maximise profit when the benefits of breastfeeding are undisputed. These are the same companies that successfully marketed formula to the third world killing countless babies as mothers tried this great health innovation from the west. We now know that 90% of ulcers are caused by a bacteria, helicobacter pylori. Yet some of the biggest selling drugs are the proton pump inhibitors developed earlier. These are great for the drug companies as they are used 'for ever', but the correct antibiotic will cure the ulcer. Why are they even being marketed? There is a great tendency for doctors to prescribe anti-depressants, I don't have the numbers, but I'm sure that the US must be one of the world's largest consumers of anti-depressants. Are you really a depressed country, or simply over-prescribed? -- modified at 22:04 Wednesday 10th October, 2007
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
None of us refuse to help Americans without health insurance.
Your mate Stan is on record saying he'd rather people with cancer die than be supplied with treatment by the government... sounds a lot like a refusal to me...
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Why are you Australians so arrogant
Because you *think* you live in the greatest country on earth... we *KNOW* we do... ;)
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
_Damian S_ wrote:
Your mate Stan is on record saying he'd rather people with cancer die than be supplied with treatment by the government... sounds a lot like a refusal to me...
Stan also speaks about growing up dirt poor and having the community come together to help each other through hard times.
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cp9876 wrote:
All I see here is bigotry and selfishness - a stubborn refusal to help those without health insurance.
Then open your eyes! None of us refuse to help Americans without health insurance. We simply believe that the federal government is not the best tool for the job. Sheesh! Why are you Australians so arrogant to think your way is the only way to do anything?
cp9876 wrote:
Of course you don't have to follow any other model, but why don't you see what you can come up with?
Why can't you just let us follow our own path without crying about it?
Mike Mullikin wrote:
None of us refuse to help Americans without health insurance
So how can this be achieved?
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Why are you Australians so arrogant to think your way is the only way to do anything
I never said that, in fact I think I was quite careful not to say it as I don't believe it.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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cp9876 wrote:
You happily allow your taxes be spent to build infrastructure to help power your economy, to educate the masses as this helps the economy,
Actually, our education system is a better argument for not allowing our government to control our health care, and our infrastructure is largely built by lowest bid private contractors. I'm pretty sure I don't want my health care to be provided by the lowest bidder or a union of government bureaucrats.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
Stan Shannon wrote:
our infrastructure is largely built by lowest bid private contractors.
Paid by your taxes I assume? Does that mean that you would consider a universal health insurance system run by lowest bid private contractors, i.e. government collects taxes and pays for private health insurance for all??
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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I believe he was quoting the article... who is it that needs to work on their reading comprehension?
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Yet take advantage of it when needed
You object to Canadians pumping money in to your health system ? The US system is broken because it only treats those who can pay. The Canadian system is broken because it insists on not providing a better level of care than what they can offer for free.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
The US system is broken because it only treats those who can pay.
That's a completely false myth. Medicaid, a State run program, partially funded by federal tax funds provides free medical care for most of those who cannot pay. Currently, anyone at or below 2X the Federal poverty level qualifies (currently that is about $21K/yr for a single person, $41K/yr for a family of 4, except in Alaska and Hawaii, where the levels are 23-25% higher). Note that all of these are still counted in the statistics as people without Health Insurance coverage.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Than don't live in my country. Problem solved.
:ignores obvious grammatical error: I don't, and I don't plan to either!! I'm still reeling from your attitude that you'd rather someone with cancer die than have your taxes pay for medical treatment for them... Are there many more that think like this where you live?
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
_Damian S_ wrote:
I'm still reeling from your attitude that you'd rather someone with cancer die than have your taxes pay for medical treatment for them...
Thats your interpretation. I believe that government invovlement will ultimately mean more people dieing from cancer rather than fewer. You're the one who would rather see people did from cancer than relent on your political ideologies.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.