Flying Spaghettit Monsters and Invisible Pink Unicorns
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Nice. The fallacy, that I wouldn't expect any atheist to see, is of course that we have a speaking God who has revealed himself and his character. When you've met someone then, no matter how impossible it might be to prove or disprove their existence, the fact that someone else hasn't met him is never going to persuade you he doesn't exist. You can try this for yourself, see if your friends can persuade you that someone you've met and they haven't is really a figment of your imagination. They can surely persuade you that's it's possible, plausible, explicable, useful, benficial, but not that it's true. Of course even if they pulled the full Orwell on you and 'really' persuaded you that the person in question didn't exist all that would happen is you'd be joing them in a collective delusion. It still wouldn't make it true.:laugh: There are many things that the scientific method can discover and many things that it can't. Those who insist that all the questions science cannot in priciple answer therefore don't exist are simply proclaiming the limits of their own understanding to be the defining limits of reality. A very foolish mistake indeed as every time they discover anything new they're repeatedly proved wrong. He who "sits enthroned above the circle of the earth" is not subject to the mind of man or to any of his creations. He reveals himself to whom he will and cannot be reached. Rather he reaches out to those who are willing to recieve him and reveals to them only what their puny minds can comprehend. Now we see "as through a glass darkly". One day "we will know even as we are known". This is revelation and holds a place above all the words of man.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
The fallacy, that I wouldn't expect any atheist to see, is of course that we have a speaking God who has revealed himself and his character.
Yeah, he's a regular fucking chatterbox.
Compassionate Conservatism is an Oxymoron. Bush is just a Moron.
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The bible actually mentions Unicorns and Dragons too. Of course Red says these parts should not be taken literally though. :rolleyes: This is off topic, but check out the Universe Today site for October 12th. http://www.universetoday.com/2007/10/12/astrosphere-for-october-12th-2008/
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This is great[^] - fabulous music (wait for it...) For those of you who don't get the theology, you may wish to start with Flying Spaghetti Monster[^] and Invisible Pink Unicorn[^] Sorry if it's a repost...(but it's worth it!) Fred
In terms of fantasy worlds, FSM is closest to Beholders, which kick the ass of unicorns.
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!|FoldWithUs! | sighist -
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Creation myth != historical text.
Except in this case.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
At least as reliable as Odin, Zeus, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
The difference being they don't exist, are the fictional creations of men. Not the creators of everything.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
You should examine at some point a metaphorical interpretation of the biblical creation myth. You might find it interesting.
Why do you assume that I haven't. The word is bilge.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Talk to a theologian, talk to a bible scholar...hell, fire up Google and search for "biblical contradictions". Then explain away. It is a book, written by many men, and, while it may contain truth, is not without flaw.
It is beyond the complete understanding of all of these so how would they, or you, or I, know. "All scripture is God breathed", not subjectively but objectively and historically. Who can testify to this but God himself and so he does. Who is able to qualify, to interpret, to evaluate scripture, only God.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Thus, by your own assertions, the Bible is flawed.
Don't put words in my mouth and certainly not blasphemy. Utter unmitigated nonsense. You have have no concept of what divine inspiration is.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
And failing to recognize the vast commonalities disqualifies you from reasoned discourse on the subject.
You see only the commonalities because they are all the unimportant, false, insignficant, man-made fluff, whereas you don't know, understand, or see, the things that are important sadly.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Except in this case...
Because...?
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
The difference being they don't exist, are the fictional creations of men. Not the creators of everything.
Funny thing is, if you had said that to someone who believed in Odin or Zeus, they might have disagreed.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Why do you assume that I haven't. The word is bilge.
Um...because you give no indication of having done so?
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
It is beyond the complete understanding of all of these so how would they, or you, or I, know. "All scripture is God breathed", not subjectively but objectively and historically. Who can testify to this but God himself and so he does. Who is able to qualify, to interpret, to evaluate scripture, only God.
So only God can say what the scripture means? Don't you think an omnipotent Creator would be capable of dictating with a bit more clarity, perhaps not leaving quite so much open for interpretation?
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Don't put words in my mouth and certainly not blasphemy. Utter unmitigated nonsense. You have have no concept of what divine inspiration is.
Your words, Matthew. You, yourself, put them in your mouth. Not enjoying the taste?
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
You see only the commonalities because they are all the unimportant, false, insignficant, man-made fluff, whereas you don't know, understand, or see, the things that are important sadly.
Once you recognize the commonality, you can begin to see the truth. But I don't expect you to understand that, as you are, on this subject, without further qualification, an absolute raving nutbag, with a closed-minded antipathy to perspective that surpasses even that of the charming Mr. Stateler. One wonders how you found your way to a programming site, as it seems that the words "and" and "or" have never entered your vocabulary. You seem to be fine, however, with "not". I have enjoyed our talk, but believe it is sadly at an end.
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Good shot, Kyle. I mean the picture of Mars. :laugh:
Compassionate Conservatism is an Oxymoron. Bush is just a Moron.
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Except in this case...
Because...?
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
The difference being they don't exist, are the fictional creations of men. Not the creators of everything.
Funny thing is, if you had said that to someone who believed in Odin or Zeus, they might have disagreed.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Why do you assume that I haven't. The word is bilge.
Um...because you give no indication of having done so?
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
It is beyond the complete understanding of all of these so how would they, or you, or I, know. "All scripture is God breathed", not subjectively but objectively and historically. Who can testify to this but God himself and so he does. Who is able to qualify, to interpret, to evaluate scripture, only God.
So only God can say what the scripture means? Don't you think an omnipotent Creator would be capable of dictating with a bit more clarity, perhaps not leaving quite so much open for interpretation?
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Don't put words in my mouth and certainly not blasphemy. Utter unmitigated nonsense. You have have no concept of what divine inspiration is.
Your words, Matthew. You, yourself, put them in your mouth. Not enjoying the taste?
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
You see only the commonalities because they are all the unimportant, false, insignficant, man-made fluff, whereas you don't know, understand, or see, the things that are important sadly.
Once you recognize the commonality, you can begin to see the truth. But I don't expect you to understand that, as you are, on this subject, without further qualification, an absolute raving nutbag, with a closed-minded antipathy to perspective that surpasses even that of the charming Mr. Stateler. One wonders how you found your way to a programming site, as it seems that the words "and" and "or" have never entered your vocabulary. You seem to be fine, however, with "not". I have enjoyed our talk, but believe it is sadly at an end.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Because...?
The original cause has no because.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Funny thing is, if you had said that to someone who believed in Odin or Zeus, they might have disagreed.
They would have and their disagreement would be as invalid and baseless as your disbelief. Rooted in placing their own mind above all. Putting themselves and the limitations of their own minds at the centre of their concept of the universe, the original sin.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Um...because you give no indication of having done so?
I gave no indication of previous pet ownership, or having read the Qu'ran either, so what?
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
So only God can say what the scripture means? Don't you think an omnipotent Creator would be capable of dictating with a bit more clarity, perhaps not leaving quite so much open for interpretation?
There is plenty that is plain, clear, simple and straight forward. There are also many who deliberately try to come up with obscure interpretations for things they don't like and want to avoid having to take at face value. Read the Bible yourself and you will see, or sadly and more probably you will totally fail to see. Worth a try though.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Your words, Matthew.
Lieing will get you nowhere. I have clearly stated the the Word of God is infallible, my words are not. You cannot conflate the two without deception.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Once you recognize the commonality, you can begin to see the truth. But I don't expect you to understand that
:laugh:You presume to talk about the truth but cannot recognise it right in front of you. That I surpass Mr Stateler in many ways is without question. That you fail to comprehend much of what I've said and so have to resort to assuming I'm insane simply puts you in his league. If you wish to understand how I came to be on a programming site check out my posts and my articles or you could just make something up and choose to believe it. No that would not surprise me, your escape from reason is nearly complete and I pity you almost as much as poor Kaiser.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can b
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Because...?
The original cause has no because.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Funny thing is, if you had said that to someone who believed in Odin or Zeus, they might have disagreed.
They would have and their disagreement would be as invalid and baseless as your disbelief. Rooted in placing their own mind above all. Putting themselves and the limitations of their own minds at the centre of their concept of the universe, the original sin.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Um...because you give no indication of having done so?
I gave no indication of previous pet ownership, or having read the Qu'ran either, so what?
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
So only God can say what the scripture means? Don't you think an omnipotent Creator would be capable of dictating with a bit more clarity, perhaps not leaving quite so much open for interpretation?
There is plenty that is plain, clear, simple and straight forward. There are also many who deliberately try to come up with obscure interpretations for things they don't like and want to avoid having to take at face value. Read the Bible yourself and you will see, or sadly and more probably you will totally fail to see. Worth a try though.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Your words, Matthew.
Lieing will get you nowhere. I have clearly stated the the Word of God is infallible, my words are not. You cannot conflate the two without deception.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Once you recognize the commonality, you can begin to see the truth. But I don't expect you to understand that
:laugh:You presume to talk about the truth but cannot recognise it right in front of you. That I surpass Mr Stateler in many ways is without question. That you fail to comprehend much of what I've said and so have to resort to assuming I'm insane simply puts you in his league. If you wish to understand how I came to be on a programming site check out my posts and my articles or you could just make something up and choose to believe it. No that would not surprise me, your escape from reason is nearly complete and I pity you almost as much as poor Kaiser.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can b
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
The original cause has no because.
I am now applauding you with one hand.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
They would have and their disagreement would be as invalid and baseless as your disbelief. Rooted in placing their own mind above all. Putting themselves and the limitations of their own minds at the centre of their concept of the universe, the original sin.
Their disagreement would be as invalid and baseless as yours. When you realize that, you will be one step closer to the truth. You know little of my philosophy, but suffice it to say that I am a Christian, albeit not by your small definition, and as far from -- and near to -- being the center of the universe as any other man. Gandhi once said, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." Gandhi was a wise man.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
I gave no indication of previous pet ownership, or having read the Qu'ran either, so what?
The point, Matthew, was that you give no indication of ever, in any way, even for a picosecond, considering any other viewpoint than the one you hold right now.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
There is plenty that is plain, clear, simple and straight forward. There are also many who deliberately try to come up with obscure interpretations for things they don't like and want to avoid having to take at face value. Read the Bible yourself and you will see, or sadly and more probably you will totally fail to see. Worth a try though.
I have read many versions, some several times. It is a wonderful book, full of truth. I have also read many other religious texts. To determine what the truth is, one must only pay close attention to the words of the Christ.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Lieing will get you nowhere. I have clearly stated the the Word of God is infallible, my words are not. You cannot conflate the two without deception.
I conflated nothing. I simply applied logic to your words. As a programmer, you should understand that. Perhaps you misspoke. You presume to talk about absolute truth, and yet are blind to...well, just about everything outside your tunnel-vision view of Christianity. That frustrates me in rational discourse, and that frustration resulted in the rath
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
The original cause has no because.
I am now applauding you with one hand.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
They would have and their disagreement would be as invalid and baseless as your disbelief. Rooted in placing their own mind above all. Putting themselves and the limitations of their own minds at the centre of their concept of the universe, the original sin.
Their disagreement would be as invalid and baseless as yours. When you realize that, you will be one step closer to the truth. You know little of my philosophy, but suffice it to say that I am a Christian, albeit not by your small definition, and as far from -- and near to -- being the center of the universe as any other man. Gandhi once said, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." Gandhi was a wise man.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
I gave no indication of previous pet ownership, or having read the Qu'ran either, so what?
The point, Matthew, was that you give no indication of ever, in any way, even for a picosecond, considering any other viewpoint than the one you hold right now.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
There is plenty that is plain, clear, simple and straight forward. There are also many who deliberately try to come up with obscure interpretations for things they don't like and want to avoid having to take at face value. Read the Bible yourself and you will see, or sadly and more probably you will totally fail to see. Worth a try though.
I have read many versions, some several times. It is a wonderful book, full of truth. I have also read many other religious texts. To determine what the truth is, one must only pay close attention to the words of the Christ.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Lieing will get you nowhere. I have clearly stated the the Word of God is infallible, my words are not. You cannot conflate the two without deception.
I conflated nothing. I simply applied logic to your words. As a programmer, you should understand that. Perhaps you misspoke. You presume to talk about absolute truth, and yet are blind to...well, just about everything outside your tunnel-vision view of Christianity. That frustrates me in rational discourse, and that frustration resulted in the rath
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
The point, Matthew, was that you give no indication of ever, in any way, even for a picosecond, considering any other viewpoint than the one you hold right now.
I think what you mean is that I don't hold all opinions equal. Quite so. I am not a post modernist. Anyway my opinion is quite irrelevant, God's opinion is the only one that matters in the end.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
I have read many versions, some several times. It is a wonderful book, full of truth. I have also read many other religious texts. To determine what the truth is, one must only pay close attention to the words of the Christ.
Quite so, "I am the way, the truth and the life." Leaves no room for Buddha, Mr Spaghetti or anyone else. The words of Christ are exactly what you need to pay close attention to. "I and the Father are one.", "If you have seen me you have seen the Father.". You have read these words but clearly don't accept them. Know the truth and he will make you free.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
The point, Matthew, was that you give no indication of ever, in any way, even for a picosecond, considering any other viewpoint than the one you hold right now.
I think what you mean is that I don't hold all opinions equal. Quite so. I am not a post modernist. Anyway my opinion is quite irrelevant, God's opinion is the only one that matters in the end.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
I have read many versions, some several times. It is a wonderful book, full of truth. I have also read many other religious texts. To determine what the truth is, one must only pay close attention to the words of the Christ.
Quite so, "I am the way, the truth and the life." Leaves no room for Buddha, Mr Spaghetti or anyone else. The words of Christ are exactly what you need to pay close attention to. "I and the Father are one.", "If you have seen me you have seen the Father.". You have read these words but clearly don't accept them. Know the truth and he will make you free.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
I think what you mean is that I don't hold all opinions equal. Quite so. I am not a post modernist. Anyway my opinion is quite irrelevant, God's opinion is the only one that matters in the end.
But aren't you created in His image and likeness? Why would God create something that is irrelevant?
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Quite so, "I am the way, the truth and the life." Leaves no room for Buddha, Mr Spaghetti or anyone else. The words of Christ are exactly what you need to pay close attention to. "I and the Father are one.", "If you have seen me you have seen the Father.". You have read these words but clearly don't accept them. Know the truth and he will make you free.
I understand. I just disagree -- strongly -- that the Bible (which version, again?) is the only religious book that represents truth. You see me as not accepting those words, and thus blind to the only truth. I see you as accepting no other words, and thus blind to a larger truth. I will never be saved, you will never be enlightened. And life goes on. It's been a pleasure talking. Perhaps we'll continue over a pint someday.