Can you build a life from $25?
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oilFactotum wrote:
What about Barbara Ehrenreich's experiment? The other one mentioned in the story.
Actually, that one is also pretty good proof that attitude is the determining factor as well. Ehrenrich failed because she had a crappy attitude: a quote from the Wikipedia article on her book: "The author, a Ph.D. educated journalist, found manual labor taxing, uninteresting and degrading." More: Bringing funds all for unexpected expenses, approximately $1300, she leaves her home and her middle-class existence, with a few personal items and her car, for a few months of low wage work. Starting off in her backyard, Ehrenreich searches for lodging and a job in neighboring Key West, Florida. Securing jobs at two restaurants, "Jerry's" and "Hearthside", fictitiously named, in consonance with other locations and people throughout the book, and a one-day housekeeping stint, she works for one month before succumbing to an extremely busy night at Jerry's; after walking out mid-shift, Ehrenreich heads to Portland, Maine, without an automobile, for a fresh start. Beginning anew, Ehrenreich lands two more jobs after a four day search, one as an assistant at a nursing home and another as a maid at a cleaning franchise. Worn down by her work-load and work-related stress, she travels to her final destination, Minneapolis, Minnesota, where she is employed in the women's department at a Wal-Mart before ultimately ending her investigation. Even with the odds stacked on her side -- a car, no dependents (other than herself), and initial funds -- Ehrenreich fails to achieve a sustainable lifestyle
Interesting how you actually spend a little time trying to dispute her, but you have no problem accepting Adam's story at face value. You see what you want to see.
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The notion is your believe that your personal experience can be applied to the rest of the world.
The real question to me is why could a young kid with $25 do what Ehrenreich, a supposedly educated and experienced adult, could not with $1300.00. I think she went into the experiment without an expectation of success and this kid went into it with nothing but success on his mind. She whined, he worked. She walked out on a job, he kept working and found other people that shared a similar attitude. She wasn't prepared to do what it took and he was.
oilFactotum wrote:
The notion is your believe that your personal experience can be applied to the rest of the world.
I belive that anybody who plans their work and works their plan will eventuly be sucessfull.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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"A former college athlete with a bachelor's degree," :laugh::laugh: I guess "starting from scratch" didn't mean what I thought it did! :laugh::laugh:
led mike
led mike wrote:
I guess "starting from scratch" didn't mean what I thought it did!
You forgot the part about only having $25 to his name.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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oilFactotum wrote:
But more seriously - Do you really believe a college educated rich-kid's experiment really means anything?
Sure. It's confirmed what I have lived. When I was a kid I was extremely poor. There were times when my parents couldn't afford to buy shoes for me and my sisters let alone pay the electric bill. Once we got out on our own and stopped living with the belief that we would always be poor we were able to not only pull ourselves out of the rut but our mother as well. It's 100 percent attitude. When people take responsibility for their situation they can learn to plan their lives.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
Chris Austin wrote:
It's 100 percent attitude.
I don't buy the 100% attitude part but no doubt it's practically impossible without the attitude. Well done by the way. :beer: I certainly wasn't poor as you but by the time I was a junior in high school my father had passed and I had to work to help our mother pay the bills.
led mike
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Rob Graham wrote:
ound manual labor taxing, uninteresting and degrading.
That there makes me want to shake people like her. I was laying fucking pavement in Phoenix in the middle of summer as a day laborer on the weekends to pay for school and housing. At the same time I was working as a bouncer and a teaching assistant during the week. She wants to talk about taxing and degrading, try teaching students physics after they see you bouncing at a popular nightclub.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
Yep. Barbara Ehrenreich didn't fail, she gave up. There's a huge difference. One could certainly argue thet the current honorary co-chair of Democratic Socialists of America really just set out to confirm her preconceptions...
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Chris Austin wrote:
It's 100 percent attitude.
I don't buy the 100% attitude part but no doubt it's practically impossible without the attitude. Well done by the way. :beer: I certainly wasn't poor as you but by the time I was a junior in high school my father had passed and I had to work to help our mother pay the bills.
led mike
led mike wrote:
I don't buy the 100% attitude
Sorry to hear that. For me its a key to life.
led mike wrote:
by the time I was a junior in high school my father had passed and I had to work to help our mother pay the bills.
Sorry to hear that. My dad passed pretty early as well the bastard :). I really needed him when I was a senior in HS.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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led mike wrote:
I guess "starting from scratch" didn't mean what I thought it did!
You forgot the part about only having $25 to his name.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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Interesting how you actually spend a little time trying to dispute her, but you have no problem accepting Adam's story at face value. You see what you want to see.
oilFactotum wrote:
You see what you want to see.
Wait a damn minute. You started this by disputing the validity of the "experiment' in Al's link, and threw out Barbara Ehrenreich's experiment as counter example. When i challenge your counter-example you fall back on accusing me of "seeing what I want to see". Unable to counter the logic, you attack the person. What a poor loser you are.
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The real question to me is why could a young kid with $25 do what Ehrenreich, a supposedly educated and experienced adult, could not with $1300.00. I think she went into the experiment without an expectation of success and this kid went into it with nothing but success on his mind. She whined, he worked. She walked out on a job, he kept working and found other people that shared a similar attitude. She wasn't prepared to do what it took and he was.
oilFactotum wrote:
The notion is your believe that your personal experience can be applied to the rest of the world.
I belive that anybody who plans their work and works their plan will eventuly be sucessfull.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
Chris Austin wrote:
The real question to me
A question that cannot be answered. Because Adam, unlike Ehrenreich, provides no information about what he actually did(like, perhaps cheat).
Chris Austin wrote:
I think she went
That's what you think, but it is based on no information at all. You haven't read the book.
Chris Austin wrote:
I belive that anybody who plans their work and works their plan will eventuly be sucessfull.
Yes, that is your notion.
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led mike wrote:
I don't buy the 100% attitude
Sorry to hear that. For me its a key to life.
led mike wrote:
by the time I was a junior in high school my father had passed and I had to work to help our mother pay the bills.
Sorry to hear that. My dad passed pretty early as well the bastard :). I really needed him when I was a senior in HS.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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Chris Austin wrote:
You forgot the part about only having $25 to his name.
How does that effect the fact that being a former college athlete with a bachelors degree does not qualify as "starting from scratch"?
led mike
I'm looking at it that he left every of that behind. And, I never seen a university teach the ethics and benefits of a hards day work. Also, I don't see how attending school helps him as a day laborer. Admittedly, being a former athlete probably helps in my opinion, most of the good athletes I know have developed a great work ethic.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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Chris Austin wrote:
The real question to me
A question that cannot be answered. Because Adam, unlike Ehrenreich, provides no information about what he actually did(like, perhaps cheat).
Chris Austin wrote:
I think she went
That's what you think, but it is based on no information at all. You haven't read the book.
Chris Austin wrote:
I belive that anybody who plans their work and works their plan will eventuly be sucessfull.
Yes, that is your notion.
oilFactotum wrote:
That's what you think, but it is based on no information at all. You haven't read the book.
Enlighten me then. Why did she walk out on her work? Did she fail to plan? Did she even have a goal?
oilFactotum wrote:
Yes, that is your notion.
Certainly, one that I've seen proven time and time again.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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Don't worry, I think this is one of the things Obama plans to change.
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization
Stan Shannon wrote:
Don't worry, I think this is one of the things Obama plans to change.
I don't normally do predictions but I would be willing to bet like a dinner that rich people will still be able to pretend to be poor after attending college and receiving a bachelors degree regardless of who is elected president.
led mike
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I'm looking at it that he left every of that behind. And, I never seen a university teach the ethics and benefits of a hards day work. Also, I don't see how attending school helps him as a day laborer. Admittedly, being a former athlete probably helps in my opinion, most of the good athletes I know have developed a great work ethic.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
Chris Austin wrote:
I'm looking at it that he left every of that behind.
You can look at it however you like, that doesn't make it true. How do you leave behind all the lessons learned the abilities gained the wisdom grown from experience. No way that story qualifies as "starting from scratch", period. No way.
led mike
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Chris Austin wrote:
I'm looking at it that he left every of that behind.
You can look at it however you like, that doesn't make it true. How do you leave behind all the lessons learned the abilities gained the wisdom grown from experience. No way that story qualifies as "starting from scratch", period. No way.
led mike
Ok, I'll accept your point for the sake of the argument. :) But, this really makes me wonder about Ehrenreich and her failure.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Don't worry, I think this is one of the things Obama plans to change.
I don't normally do predictions but I would be willing to bet like a dinner that rich people will still be able to pretend to be poor after attending college and receiving a bachelors degree regardless of who is elected president.
led mike
No, I'm actually pretty sure that is what "change" means. Otherwise, why Obama?
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization
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Rob Graham wrote:
you're about to vote for Obama
Sure am!
Rob Graham wrote:
why should his background or education invalidate the experiment?
Didn't say that, did I?
oilFactotum wrote:
Sure am!
Me too!
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization
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oilFactotum wrote:
You see what you want to see.
Wait a damn minute. You started this by disputing the validity of the "experiment' in Al's link, and threw out Barbara Ehrenreich's experiment as counter example. When i challenge your counter-example you fall back on accusing me of "seeing what I want to see". Unable to counter the logic, you attack the person. What a poor loser you are.
Rob Graham wrote:
When i challenge your counter-example
No, what you did is cherry pick a few items from a wiki and drew some unsupported conclusions. That is "seeing what you want to see".
Rob Graham wrote:
Unable to counter the logic
Sorry, logic wasn't involved.
Rob Graham wrote:
What a poor loser you are.
Can't say that I've lost anything. A rich boy's lark doesn't prove a thing about the life of the homeless or the working poor.
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oilFactotum wrote:
That's what you think, but it is based on no information at all. You haven't read the book.
Enlighten me then. Why did she walk out on her work? Did she fail to plan? Did she even have a goal?
oilFactotum wrote:
Yes, that is your notion.
Certainly, one that I've seen proven time and time again.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
Chris Austin wrote:
Enlighten me
Read the book, broaden your horizons.
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No, I'm actually pretty sure that is what "change" means. Otherwise, why Obama?
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization