Evolution works in mysterious ways

DemonPossessed

Matthew Faithfull wrote:

If your code doesn't contain a DrawLine Function that can handle differing screen resolutions you're not going to get one by waving a magnet over your hard disk, not even if you wave it for a million years over a billion hard disks simultaneously, even if you do throw away a random selection of those that don't work every now and again.

This is a typical creationist error. And one of the most ridiculous misunderstandings of evolution. Evolution does not deal with impossibly improbable single step changes. It deals with cumulative small changes over an extremely long time frame. Extremely small random changes in the offspring of each generation, such as the ones in bacteria that give them resistance to antibiotics allow natural selection to "select" the best suited ones to survive and produce the next generation of offspring. And over an extremely long time scale, this produces big changes, but in a small time scale, it produces small changes.

I'm a Christian: I *know* that I'm perverted. - Ilion

Matthew Faithfull

So you agree that the Logos referred to is the Christ as verse 17 clearly implies. Now in order to then reject the divinity of Christ you must tear apart the entire new Testament, writing off all the bits you don't agree with, reattributing parts to different times and authors and coming up with complex justification for choosing far out interpretations in one place and orthodox ones in another where this choice seem entirely arbitrary. :sigh: Everyone form the Gnostics to the JW's to Steve Chalke has been there before. It all amounts to 'I don't like what the Bible says so I'll write my own'. Which in turn amounts to 'I know better than God', hardly original and its kind of obvious where that road leads. Just for fun why don't you tell me how you take apart ' I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except by me' using 16 different translations, 3 language, 9.5 feet of rope and a fish hook to empty it of meaning and cast doubt on where the comma should go. I can't say I look forward to it fire away.

"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)

leckey 0

All arguments I have heard against evolution end up revolving in a higher being and religion. So if I can find someone who does not believe in a higher being and they can disprove evolution, then I would consider hearing the argument.

I have a blog for those with a sense of humor. The codeword is "scuttlebutt." http://craptasticnation.blogspot.com/[^]

eggsovereasy

Your mom is an infant...

Al Beback

Oakman wrote:

Al, Adam and Eve didn't have any daughters.

:omg: Does that mean Eve got busy with her own sons? (I don't care enough to look it up.)

- Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. - Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. - Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil? - Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? Epicurus

Matthew Faithfull

That if I may say so is a typical pseduo scientific error. Firstly I am not a typical creationist, secondly I'm well aware of the how the theory of evolution is supposed to work i.e. not coming form a position of ignorance as you assume so no need to preach its tennets to me and thirdly as discussed elsewhere in this thread it's wrong. As in, does not work.

"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)

Patrick Etc

I don't understand why you don't just give up. You're the unarmed savage against a well-equipped, advanced Roman army. What is your professional training that might give you even the slightest bit of knowledge in the fields of chemistry and evolutionary biology? It's getting kind of pathetic watching this go on. You're talking about things you know absolutely nothing about, against someone who does this for a living and has extensive education on the subject. First year biology students know more about this subject than you are demonstrating. You believe all sorts of things about how genes behave, except all of them are demonstrably false by repeated proven experiment. Really, this is getting pathetic.

It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. - Albert Einstein

Matthew Faithfull

Thomas George wrote:

You don't have the right to force it on anyone else.

Pehaps according to your belief system I don't but what about if according to my belief system I do? Then by doing so I'm doing right and by complaining you're wrong by your own measure as you're trying to force your beliefs on me. This is the fundemental insanity inherant in post-modernist thought. It's not up to me to resolve it, I actually believe what I believe and I believe it universally and consistently so it applies equally to you as to me. If your belief system is discontinuous or inconsistent then applying it in a rational universe is going to present you with some challenges. :)

"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)

Paul Watson

She grew up. You should too.

regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa

Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:

At least he achieved immortality for a few years.

DemonPossessed

Matthew Faithfull wrote:

That if I may say so is a typical pseduo scientific error.

Matthew Faithfull wrote:

As in, does not work.

Are you going to provide any support for your statements or just do like Ilion and pretend that you are assumed to be right?

Matthew Faithfull wrote:

I'm well aware of the how the theory of evolution is supposed to work

Obviously you are not or you would not make the gross error of thinking that the improbability of single step change is evidence against evolution, which deals with cumulative change.

I'm a Christian: I *know* that I'm perverted. - Ilion

Matthew Faithfull

So you say and yet not one argument I have made has been shot down, the great mountain of hard evidence for the magic information generating mechanism of evolution has turned out to be non existent, most of those claiming expertise have turned out to know less than I do and I never claimed that was very much. Evolution has been dimissed and we have moved on to more interesting topics. you cling to your primitive beliefs if you wish but they will produce nothing but technical dead ends, philosophical black holes and social disintegration. I understand fully why you post empty insults but it doesn't make you any less wrong.

"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)

Matthew Faithfull

As you're clearly an expert tell me now, if a single step has a probability of X and another subsequent step a probability of Y. How do you calculate the probability of X occuring and then Y occuring. I look forward to seeing how this comes out as more probable than just X occuring Feel free to be as cumulative as you like in your answer if that's the magic you believe in :laugh:

"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)

Tim Craig

73Zeppelin wrote:

I can add you the list of morons on here that aren't worth acknowledging.

You have way too much tolerance, John. :laugh:

2 75 22 6

DemonPossessed

Matthew Faithfull wrote:

As you're clearly an expert tell me

I don't pretend to be an expert in evolution.

Matthew Faithfull wrote:

tell me now, if a single step has a probability of X and another subsequent step a probability of Y. How do you calculate the probability of X occuring and then Y occuring. I look forward to seeing how this comes out as more probable than just X occuring

The way I understand it is this, as the number of genes mutated increases, the number of possible mutations increases exponentially, and only a very small number of these possible mutations is going to give the organism an advantage. Most of the possible mutations will result in lowered chances of survival or death. So given the rate of mutations, it is extremely unlikely that an organism will manage to evolve a very many positive mutations in one generation. But given the exponentially better odds of developing a small change that will be helpful, it is much more likely that this will happen. And by taking small steps this way, one small positive mutation "selected" by natural selection at a time, it is exponentially more likely that X will be reached then by one extremely lucky random mutation.

Matthew Faithfull wrote:

Feel free to be as cumulative as you like in your answer if that's the magic you believe in [Laugh]

Wow, your understanding of evolution is woefully inadequate for you to be trying to argue against it. Applying a principle (natural selection and cumulative change) that we can observe to explain big changes over long time frames is magic, but believing in a creator speaking everything into existence is logical? :laugh:

I'm a Christian: I *know* that I'm perverted. - Ilion

Ilion

leckey wrote:

All arguments I have heard against evolution end up revolving in a higher being and religion. So if I can find someone who does not believe in a higher being and they can disprove evolution, then I would consider hearing the argument.

The assertion shows either that you're intellectually dishonest or that you didn't look very hard. And, since you have no clue what you mean by "evolution," how would you know that you'd ever encountered a "disproof" of it? And, have you ever *really* encountered a proof of "evolution?" Or are you *assuming* it, circularly?

modified on Thursday, May 8, 2008 3:58 PM

Lost User

Matthew Faithfull wrote:

but what about if according to my belief system I do?

Good for you. You defend yours, I will defend mine. But, most democracies are based on the premise that governments must not favor one belief system over the other. Attempting to impose one's belief system on another will cause disharmony that may manifest as violent outbursts.

Matthew Faithfull wrote:

If your belief system is discontinuous or inconsistent then applying it in a rational universe is going to present you with some challenges.

I have not professed my religious beliefs in any of the posts. I have also not denounced your beliefs. I was just pointing out that democratic systems attempt to reconcile conflicting belief systems (atheism and agnostics included) by not favoring one over another and providing space and opportunity for all to profess their beliefs. A basic requirement for that is not to teach any religious belief as fact in public schools (ones that are funded by tax revenues).

Matthew Faithfull

DemonPossessed wrote:

it is extremely unlikely that an organism will manage to evolve a very many positive mutations in one generation.

In fact it is extremely unlikely that an organism will evolve any positive mutations in one generation and then the probability of them surviving is reduced in every generation by the chance of their effect being undone by far more common negative mutations. The chances of two single mutations, both positive and cumulatively positive accumulating in one organism are exponentially less and then even less likely to survive because the target for random damage is now twice as big and so on and so on until you find that the few hundred tiny differences supposed to exist between a pliocence era horse and modern one are so unlikely you're talking 1/number-of-atoms-in-the-universe and then some. In fact so unlikely that spontaneous generation of the whole horse at once through quantum fluctuations is actually more likely. And that just to get a horse form un ugly horse in a hundred million years. To get a full blown mammal even a tiny one from a single celled proto organism, well you'd be writing zero's on every quark in the universe and you'd run out.

DemonPossessed wrote:

but believing in a creator speaking everything into existence is logical?

No its fundamental, which entirely trumps logic which is always derivative

"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)

Matthew Faithfull

On the operation of a peaceful democracy I agree with you. That you haven't let slip a belief is I think doubtful, you just don't acknowledge it as such. "You can't impose your beliefs on others" is not different in its imperative or restrictive nature from "Thou shalt not kill". The main difference is that it is internally contradictory as by stating it you are denying it, clever that. There ought to be a term for statements that explicitly or implicitly deny themselves. :)

"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)

DemonPossessed

Matthew Faithfull wrote:

In fact it is extremely unlikely that an organism will evolve any positive mutations in one generation and then the probability of them surviving is reduced in every generation by the chance of their effect being undone by far more common negative mutations.

This is disproven because we can observe bacteria and insects evolving resistance to pesticides and antibiotics because of evolutionary processes on a small scale.

Matthew Faithfull wrote:

The chances of two single mutations, both positive and cumulatively positive accumulating in one organism are exponentially less and then even less likely to survive because the target for random damage is now twice as big and so on and so on until you find that the few hundred tiny differences supposed to exist between a pliocence era horse and modern one are so unlikely you're talking 1/number-of-atoms-in-the-universe and then some.

Wrong. If organisms with a certain small positive change are more likely to survive then ones without that change, over time organisms with that small mutation will be the norm in a species, then from there organisms with another positive change will be selected by natural selection the same way as before. It is not two random steps in the dark. For instance, using the bacteria example again, if natural selection was truly random, which it is not, what are the odds of bacteria evolving resistance to antibiotics?

Matthew Faithfull wrote:

In fact so unlikely that spontaneous generation of the whole horse at once through quantum fluctuations is actually more likely. And that just to get a horse form un ugly horse in a hundred million years. To get a full blown mammal even a tiny one from a single celled proto organism, well you'd be writing zero's on every quark in the universe and you'd run out.

Once again, you fail to understand that cumulative change by natural selection is not random.

I'm a Christian: I *know* that I'm perverted. - Ilion

Ilion

Paul Watson wrote:

Reason is what we base everything on.

This isn't actually true as a general rule; quite opposite, in fact. And, on a personal level, I've encountered only one atheist trying to be reasonable and rational ... and his fellow 'atheists' would have none of it ... and I encountered him personally precisely because I "went out of my way" to register at Internet Infidels (or, as I like to call it, "Invincible Ignorance") so that I could try to give him a spot of encouragement to act as a counter to the visciousness of his fellow 'atheists.'

Paul Watson wrote:

I do admit atheists can be difficult to reason with however as we tend to have been quoted the Bible as valid points against our arguments. We grow weary with scripture and do not always give enough time and respect to every Jesus freak who comes along.

'Atheists' "can be difficult to reason with" precisely because they tend to be irrational and unreasonable persons. The flaw is within the 'atheists' themselves; it has nothing to do with the local concentration of Jesus Freaks. For example, I *never* throw the Bible at you people ... but you all continuously claim I do. All the arguments and claims I make are drawn entirely on what you people claim to "base everything on" ... and you all still act like vampires encountering garlic. Or crosses.