Are the Russians justified in attacking Georgia?
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Rob Caldecott wrote:
How is this different to Kosovo
Lets talk timeline Milosevic sent troops into Kosovo in February; In March (but not one month but thirteen months later)after repeated peace talks are held in Paris and in Serbia but which lead no-where because the Serb parliament refuses to permit NATO peacekeepers in Kosovo, NATO authorised air-strikes -- but no repeat NO invasion of Yugoslavia. As soon as Yugoslavia begins the withdrawal of their troops from Kosovo, the air-strike are ended. So let me ask: Except to a blind, deaf, and dumb bleeding heart, How the fuck are they similar?!!!
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Kosovo is different, the Russians HAVE gone into Georgia as a whole on foot. However, they are limiting their actions to destroying military hardware in order to stop the Georgians causing more bloodshed in Ossetia, and perhaps the state on the coast, whose name I forget. But the US DID bomb the capitol of Serbia, military targets only, and did destroy bridges in Serbia propper.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Does Georgia's action justify Russia's reaction? Do two wrongs ever make a right?
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Looking just at the facts you're mostly right. But let's not be naive: Putin provoked and the Georgian president took the bait. Russia was feeding the insurgency in Ossetia and it was Putin plan to seek this conflict. Putin is a gangster but, precisely because of that, is also a very smart politician.
Of all forms of sexual aberration, the most unnatural is abstinence.
South Ossetia was made Georgian after the first Russian revolution, even if they refused and rebelled and started a war. They consider themselves as different people, with a different culture, a different language, and they don't want to be part of Georgia. Why should they be denied the right to self-determination?
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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Kosovo is different, the Russians HAVE gone into Georgia as a whole on foot. However, they are limiting their actions to destroying military hardware in order to stop the Georgians causing more bloodshed in Ossetia, and perhaps the state on the coast, whose name I forget. But the US DID bomb the capitol of Serbia, military targets only, and did destroy bridges in Serbia propper.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
However, they are limiting their actions to destroying military hardware
Either TF1 is censoring its coverage or you are not watching. I have seen footage of Russian armored vehicles crushing civilian and police cars in the center of towns. There are report that, even today long after first a cese fire and then a withdrawal treaty were signed, the Russians continue to move into unprotected towns.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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To be frank, yes. And the West can't really complain. How is this different to Kosovo? The attack by Georgia that prompted the Russian invasion killed 1,500 people - they shelled a city for f*cks sake - and many of the dead were effectively Russian citizens. The US or UK would of acted exactly the same as Russia has if their citizens were massacred. And did the Georgian president really think that the US would defend his country, starting WWIII in the process? What a tool. He's sold his country down the river - and for what?
Rob Caldecott wrote:
To be frank
I thoroughly enjoy blaming the victim, don't you?
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Yes, as long as war can be justified (as if it wasn't something immoral by itself) I don't know if Saakashvili hoped to take Moscow, but his attacks against South Ossetia was ill prepared, militarily and politically. I don't know if he had this idea by himself or was helped in taking that decision, but IMHO it was a huge, huge mistake. And now Russia wll play its game in Georgia, trying to get the most from the situation. I find also it's very funny that the US and UK play the outraged ones, as if the invasion of Iraq was peanuts.
How do you own disorder? Fold with us! ¤ flickr
Ka?l wrote:
I find also it's very funny that the US and UK play the outraged ones
and in typical French fashion we find a way to surrender.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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fat_boy wrote:
However, they are limiting their actions to destroying military hardware
Either TF1 is censoring its coverage or you are not watching. I have seen footage of Russian armored vehicles crushing civilian and police cars in the center of towns. There are report that, even today long after first a cese fire and then a withdrawal treaty were signed, the Russians continue to move into unprotected towns.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
There are report that, even today long after first a cese fire and then a withdrawal treaty were signed, the Russians continue to move into unprotected towns
and take prisnors.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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South Ossetia was made Georgian after the first Russian revolution, even if they refused and rebelled and started a war. They consider themselves as different people, with a different culture, a different language, and they don't want to be part of Georgia. Why should they be denied the right to self-determination?
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread Fold with us! ¤ flickr
Ka?l wrote:
Why should they be denied the right to self-determination?
They shouldn't be. However that does not justify Russia's violation of the national sovereignty of Georgia, the destruction of its military and civilian infrastructure and the creation of ovr 100,000 Georgian refugees.
Ka?l wrote:
They consider themselves as different people, with a different culture, a different language
Any thoughts on when France will sign the Council of Europe's Framework Convention on National Minorities and allow the Germans in Alsace Lorraine self-determination - or at least the right to speak German in their homes?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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South Ossetia was made Georgian after the first Russian revolution, even if they refused and rebelled and started a war. They consider themselves as different people, with a different culture, a different language, and they don't want to be part of Georgia. Why should they be denied the right to self-determination?
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread Fold with us! ¤ flickr
Ka?l wrote:
Why should they be denied the right to self-determination?
They shouldn't. My point is that Putin used them as bait, but this doesn't make their wish less legitimate. However, as a side comment: is there anything more typically Caucasian, Middle Eastern and Balkan than "consider themselves as different people"? I mean in the western side of the world (the Americas) different people can get along very well. In the Balkans, Caucasus and Middle East they seem to be always on the verge of cutting their neighbors throat just because they have a different language, religion or ethnicity. I think the "Old World" of Europe, Caucasus, Central Asia and Middle East has a lot to learn from us in the "New World", from Canada to Argentina.
Of all forms of sexual aberration, the most unnatural is abstinence.
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Ka?l wrote:
I find also it's very funny that the US and UK play the outraged ones
and in typical French fashion we find a way to surrender.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Tell that to the the Ten french soldiers who were killed today in Afghanistan fighting the Talibs
Society is composed of two great classes, those that have more dinners than appetite, and those who have more appetite than dinners Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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fat_boy wrote:
However, they are limiting their actions to destroying military hardware
Either TF1 is censoring its coverage or you are not watching. I have seen footage of Russian armored vehicles crushing civilian and police cars in the center of towns. There are report that, even today long after first a cese fire and then a withdrawal treaty were signed, the Russians continue to move into unprotected towns.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
OK, I havent heard that. Putting a soldier in a tank in a foreign country though is likely to produce this kind of behaviour even though it isnt 'policy'. Like wise I am sure the behaviour of some troops in Iraq is not US policy.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Tell that to the the Ten french soldiers who were killed today in Afghanistan fighting the Talibs
Society is composed of two great classes, those that have more dinners than appetite, and those who have more appetite than dinners Fold with us! ¤ flickr
France and some other allies had seemed reluctant to back a U.S. hard line against Moscow before the meeting, but Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner expressed exasperation at Russia's failure to pull back its troops in line with the peace deal brokered last week by French President Nicolas Sarkozy. and of course the Russions are upset by the French "exasperation". It helps the Georgians ever so much. [^]
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Yes, as long as war can be justified (as if it wasn't something immoral by itself) I don't know if Saakashvili hoped to take Moscow, but his attacks against South Ossetia was ill prepared, militarily and politically. I don't know if he had this idea by himself or was helped in taking that decision, but IMHO it was a huge, huge mistake. And now Russia wll play its game in Georgia, trying to get the most from the situation. I find also it's very funny that the US and UK play the outraged ones, as if the invasion of Iraq was peanuts.
How do you own disorder? Fold with us! ¤ flickr
Ka?l wrote:
I find also it's very funny that the US and UK play the outraged ones
Another one who finds the death and destruction going on in Georgia to be hilarious. Here's a clue, while there's a world of difference between the invasion of Iraq and the invasion of Georgia, even if you were right and the US and the UK were dead wrong back in 2003, they are dead right in 2008. Far from being amusements for your delight, they are two of the major powers attempting to peacefully keep Georgia from being dismembered, its citizens run over by tanks and its women raped, without increasing the violence. I suggest you stop laughing at their efforts and start acting like an adult.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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OK, I havent heard that. Putting a soldier in a tank in a foreign country though is likely to produce this kind of behaviour even though it isnt 'policy'. Like wise I am sure the behaviour of some troops in Iraq is not US policy.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
Putting a soldier in a tank in a foreign country
Not if you have given him orders to withdraw, as the Russians have been claiming they were doing for a week.
fat_boy wrote:
Like wise I am sure the behaviour of some troops in Iraq is not US policy.
If I remember correctly, the majority of Iraqis greeted the US and UK as liberators. (Yes, the situation changed because of the idiotic mistakes made by the US.) Have you seem lots of footage of Georgians greeting the Russians with open arms? Perhaps you could point us to a website showing Russian troops handing out candy bars to the kids - as opposed to running them down with their tanks.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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France and some other allies had seemed reluctant to back a U.S. hard line against Moscow before the meeting, but Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner expressed exasperation at Russia's failure to pull back its troops in line with the peace deal brokered last week by French President Nicolas Sarkozy. and of course the Russions are upset by the French "exasperation". It helps the Georgians ever so much. [^]
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
You won't even acknowledge the sacrifice of those French soldiers. What a tool!
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You won't even acknowledge the sacrifice of those French soldiers. What a tool!
oilFactotum wrote:
You won't even acknowledge the sacrifice of those French soldiers. What a tool!
they were ambushed idiot.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Oakman wrote:
How the f*** are they similar?!!!
They're both on the other side of the world?
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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Ka?l wrote:
Why should they be denied the right to self-determination?
They shouldn't. My point is that Putin used them as bait, but this doesn't make their wish less legitimate. However, as a side comment: is there anything more typically Caucasian, Middle Eastern and Balkan than "consider themselves as different people"? I mean in the western side of the world (the Americas) different people can get along very well. In the Balkans, Caucasus and Middle East they seem to be always on the verge of cutting their neighbors throat just because they have a different language, religion or ethnicity. I think the "Old World" of Europe, Caucasus, Central Asia and Middle East has a lot to learn from us in the "New World", from Canada to Argentina.
Of all forms of sexual aberration, the most unnatural is abstinence.
My 5. :rose:
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oilFactotum wrote:
You won't even acknowledge the sacrifice of those French soldiers. What a tool!
they were ambushed idiot.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
So what are you saying? That they were stupid to get ambushed and deserved to die? Do you feel the same way about the 1700 US soldiers who have died by IED in Iraq?
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France and some other allies had seemed reluctant to back a U.S. hard line against Moscow before the meeting, but Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner expressed exasperation at Russia's failure to pull back its troops in line with the peace deal brokered last week by French President Nicolas Sarkozy. and of course the Russions are upset by the French "exasperation". It helps the Georgians ever so much. [^]
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Sarkozy and Kouchner are buffons. That said, I don't see why we should be consider responsible for the incoherences of the US foreign policy, making opposite statements when regarding Kosovo and South Ossetia. Next, why should we help Georgia, a country which deliberately chose to use force and shell civilians?
If you kill a whale, you get Greenpeace and Jacques Cousteau on your back, but wipe out sardines and you get a canning subsidy! Fold with us! ¤ flickr