Georgia has won the PR war

[Gary Kirkham]

I am amazed that you are amazed.

Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. Me blog, You read

[Oakman]

Gary Kirkham wrote:

I am amazed that you are amazed.

Maybe you have to have raised kids before "He started it!" stops being justification for any and all escalations of violence.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Nikolay Denisov]

Yeah, I remember that you have some problems with logic, so I am ready to help you understand why it's very unlikely for someone to vote within a minute after the reply was posted when you fully rely on email notifications. Even if we assume that it does not take long for the codeproject server to send a notification and for the notification itself to arrive, we also have to take into account, that typical email client checks for new mail as often as once in a few minutes, not every second. And yes, I have just asked my wife, which is originally from Moscow, and she has confirmed me that people there are normally also asleep when it's 3:00 am outside, even if there is an email notification from the codeproject waiting them in inbox.

Regards, Nikolay

[Oakman]

I do note than in all of your protestations, you never actually denied 1-voting. Is that some leftover bourgeois morality? :-D

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Nikolay Denisov]

Your words would probably worth something if only you were smart and objective enough to blame the US for similar actions. Otherwise it's simply cheap rhetoric.

Regards, Nikolay

[Nikolay Denisov]

Oh, shit, you caugth me, stranger! Looks like it was me who voted "1" all the time. Shame on me!

Regards, Nikolay

[Oakman]

Nikolay Denisov wrote:

Your words would probably worth something if only you were smart and objective enough to blame the US for similar actions. Otherwise it's simply cheap rhetoric.

My concern about the death of civilians in both South Osettia and Georgia is "simply cheap rhetoric?" Putin couldn't have said it any better.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Nikolay Denisov]

Seems like you have one-sided concerns...

Regards, Nikolay

[Mladen Jankovic]

Exactly

[Genetic Algorithm Library]

[Oakman]

Nikolay Denisov wrote:

Seems like you have one-sided concerns...

Perhaps it does - to a Russian. Here's how it "seems" to me. 1. I thought at the time, and think now, that the US/NATO intervention in Yugoslavia was a bad idea. The reports of what the Serbs were doing sickened me, but that kind of behavior appears to be endemic to that part of the world and I didn't think it made sense to try to fix one piece of the problem. As it turned out, all we did was give the Kosovars a chance to get even. 2. I was unhappy beyond belief with the idea the the US was going to conduct a peremptory strike on Iraq. Only the concept of almost functional WMDs justified it at all. I have been a consistent critic of Bush for at least six years for fighting a stupid war, stupidly. As to nation-building - all we did was give the Shia a chance to get even. 3. I find NATO a ridiculously supperannuated organization. What the hell are we doing with Turkey in an alliance supposedly built around the Atlantic Ocean??? It should have been disbanded ten years ago and Europe left to defend itself and manage it's own concerns. That is, after all, what the EU is for, isn't it? It's time they stood up on their own. 4. I find the over-reaction of Russia repugnant and the unprovoked destruction of civilian infrastructure and murder of unarmed civilians after the Georgian army had been defeated and fled to be despicable and the lies told to justify it, disingenuous and a return to the dark days of the USSR. Any questions?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Mike Gaskey]

Oakman wrote:

I am amazed at the number of supposedly adult people in this forum who have felt that what Georgia did justifies what Russia did.

useful idiots - far from a new concept, merely a new generation.[^]

Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.

[Nikolay Denisov]

OK, let's just compare points 1 and 4. In 1 you are very concerned whether NATO intervation had any practical meaning. But I see NO concern about how it was made; nothing is said about innocent victims among Serbian civilians, cluster bombs, etc. But as soon as you turn to Georgia, all this CHEAP rhetoric is coming out! Why?

Regards, Nikolay

[Oakman]

When I said that all we did was give the Kosovars a chance to get even, did you twist that around to mean approbation - or is it just your language problem? Since apparently you don't have any ability to extrapolate, I felt great sympathy for the Serbian civilians that were hit by the bombs. I know what its like and don't wish it on anyone. Since I lived with a girl whose grandparents had come from Serbia, it was more personal to me than it probably was to you. But, Nicolai, since you are so good at dredging up the past, I wonder if you'd like to talk about Chechnya. It appears to me that Putin is trying to pull a repeat. Would you agree? How do you feel about the Chechnyans who were killed, tortured, bombed and made homeless by the thousands? Proud of your country's behavior?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Oakman]

Mike Gaskey wrote:

far from a new concept, merely a new generation.[^]

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement, reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam." ~ Bruce C. Thornton You think he's met Ka?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Nikolay Denisov]

Oakman wrote:

When I said that all we did was give the Kosovars a chance to get even, did you twist that around to mean approbation - or is it just your language problem?

Kosovars should be compared with South Ossetians. And just like Kosovars they simply try to get even with Georgians now. But have I ever said I approve it???

Oakman wrote:

I felt great sympathy for the Serbian civilians that were hit by the bombs.

Hey, don't you intentionally pretend not to understand what I am talking about? I did not ask whether you feel any sympathy for Serbs hit by NATO bombs. I did ask why the hell you do NOT blame Americans for that bombs? Why don't you say something like: "Oh, damn bloody Americans! They rolled in with overwhelming force! They killed innocent civilians there! They bombed refugees! Mr Bush is a thug! He must pay for this!" Where all this emotional loud words that you so like to use when it regards Russia?

Oakman wrote:

But, Nicolai, since you are so good at dredging up the past, I wonder if you'd like to talk about Chechnya. It appears to me that Putin is trying to pull a repeat. Would you agree? How do you feel about the Chechnyans who were killed, tortured, bombed and made homeless by the thousands? Proud of your country's behavior?

Not a problem, my fellow! I DO blame the Russian government for the war in Chechnya. I DO blame Mr Yeltsin, who was so loved by the West, for the First and most bloody Chechnya war. I DO blame Mr Putin for the Second Chechnya war. And I am NOT proud of Russia's behavior in Chechnya by any means. Still any questions?

Regards, Nikolay

[Oakman]

Nikolay Denisov wrote:

Why don't you say something like: "Oh, damn bloody Americans! They rolled in with overwhelming force! They killed innocent civilians there! They bombed refugees! Mr Bush is a thug! He must pay for this!"

Well: the main reason I don't, is they never targeted civilians. That there were some killed, I have no doubt. Just as I have no doubt that the Serbs killed thousands and thousands of Kosovars. Oh by the way: At the time Clinton was president. George Bush was govenor of Texas. :laugh:

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Nikolay Denisov]

Oakman wrote:

Well: the main reason I don't, is they never targeted civilians. That there were some killed, I have no doubt.

Do you really believe that the Russian troops were ordered to kill civilians in Georgia??? Give me a break!

Oakman wrote:

Just as I have no doubt that the Serbs killed thousands and thousands of Kosovars.

Like there is no doubt that hundreds and hundreds of South Ossetian civilians were killed in Tskhinvali along with a dozen of Russian peacekeepers. So what?

Oakman wrote:

Oh by the way: At the time Clinton was president. George Bush was govenor of Texas.

You are right. They both are thugs anyway. :)

Regards, Nikolay

[Oakman]

Nikolay Denisov wrote:

Do you really believe that the Russian troops were ordered to kill civilians in Georgia??? Give me a break!

Yes. There have been verified reports of tanks firing on civilian refugees.

Nikolay Denisov wrote:

Like there is no doubt that hundreds and hundreds of South Ossetian civilians were killed in Tskhinvali

Sorry, Human Rights Watch looked into those insanely inflated casualty figures and found them to be false. IIRC, 45 South Ossetians were killed.

Nikolay Denisov wrote:

a dozen of Russian peacekeepers.

I must admit that the use of the name "peacekeepers" is brilliantly Orwellian.

Nikolay Denisov wrote:

They both are thugs anyway

I am sure that the Russians know far more about having crime bosses as heads of state. I bow to your superior knowledge.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Nikolay Denisov]

Oakman wrote:

Yes. There have been verified reports of tanks firing on civilian refugees.

Was it casual? Or were this tanks really ORDERED to fire refugees? Any links to documented reports? By the way, as far as I see you like to refer to HRW. Well, that's something. Let's just see what we can learn about Civilian Deaths in the NATO Air Compaign[^] from that source: ...Human Rights Watch concludes that as few as 489 and as many as 528 Yugoslav civilians were killed in the ninety separate incidents in Operation Allied Force... ...Almost half of the incidents (forty-three) resulted from attacks during daylight hours, when civilians could have been expected to be on the roads and bridges or in public buildings which may have been targeted... ...In three cases-the bombing of Serb Radio and Television headquarters in Belgrade (incident no. 30), the bombing of the "Marshal Tito" Petrovaradin (Varadinski) Bridge in Novi Sad (incident no. 2), and the bombing of the Belgrade Heating Plant (incident no. 7)-Human Rights Watch questions the legitimacy of the target... ...The attacks on the Novi Sad bridge and six other bridges in which civilian deaths occurred (Ostruznica, incident no. 37; Trstenik, incident no. 39; Nis, incident no. 51; Vladicin Han, incident no. 55; Pertate, incident no. 71; and Varvarin, incident no. 81) also were of questionable military effect. All are road bridges. Most are urban or town bridges that are not major routes of communications. Human Rights Watch questions individual target selection in the case of these bridges... ...On April 14, during daylight hours, NATO aircraft repeatedly bombed refugee movements over a twelve-mile stretch of road between Djakovica and Decane in western Kosovo, killing seventy-three civilians and injuring thirty-six-deaths Human Rights Watch could document. The attack began at 1:30 p.m. and persisted for about two hours, causing civilian deaths in numerous locations on the convoy route near the villages of Bistrazin, Gradis, Madanaj, and Meja... ...Cluster bomb use can be positively determined in seven incidents (another five are possible but unconfirmed)... ...Altogether, some ninety to 150 civilians died from cluster bomb use... Any comments on this? Should I continue quoting from the report?

[Oakman]

to my mind the most important statement in the HRW report you cited was this: Operation Allied Force began on March 24, 1999 after more than a year of effort by the international community led by NATO to find a negotiated solution in Kosovo. After more than a year. The Serbs raped, murdered, and terrorised the Kosovars for more than a year while NATO tried to come to a peaceful solution. Russia on the other waited waited what, more than an hour? Mor than a sixth of a day? Then there's this: one month into the air war, alliance leaders decided to intensify the air campaign by expanding the target set to include military-industrial infrastructure, news media, and othertargets considered to be of a strategic nature. For one entire month after hostilities began the Serbs refused to pull out of Kosovo. Was it really a surprise to anyone that the ante was upped? Then there's this: Though a couple of dozen incidents would dog NATO throughout the war in its press and propaganda battles with the Yugoslav government, from another perspective, the limitation of "collateral damage" was a political imperative to successful conclusion of an alliance war. And when reporting on the number of deaths, you left out: But between 279 and 318 of the dead-between 56 and 60 percent of the total number of deaths-were in Kosovo. 3/5ths of the civilian deaths occurred in Kosovar, not in Serbia! You also skipped over: Human Rights Watch was able to determine the intended target in sixty-two of the ninety incidents (68 percent). Of these, the greater number of incidents was caused as a result of attacks on military barracks, headquarters, and depots; thirteen were a result of attacks on bridges (and one tunnel); six resulted from attacks on telecommunications and air defense facilities; five each resulted from attacks on industrial facilities, oil installations, and airfields; and seven were as a result of attacks on convoys or on what were perceived to be military forces in the field. In other words seven out of ten of the civilians who were killed were in military targets at the time. To have ignored this statistic show either a level of stupidity or a level of duplicity that shows you to be a true son of Mother Russia. And of course, this was not considered important by you: The incident at Korisa (incident no. 57) also raises important questions of Yugoslav responsibility for some civilian deaths attributed to NATO bombing. In this case, NATO did not apply