Good Old Professor Dawkins [modified]
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73Zeppelin wrote:
you don't invoke invisible objects and then argue they exist as truth until your opponent disproves them.
You're right I don't. There is no matter or concept of disproving God less even than of disproving yourself.
73Zeppelin wrote:
That's idiocy.
Your opinion. I'll takes God's opinion over yours, and mine for that matter, any day. He after all does have all the authority.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
Are you in God's good graces?
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I cannot help the delusional fools who believe in mumbo jumbo written by bronze age shepherds, I can, however, offer psychological help and deprogramming of the mind washing you have been subjected to. The teaching of religious dogma to children is Child Abuse of the worst kind, it hides under the veneer of respectability and yet inculcates obscenities in the form of acceptable behaviour. All major religions teach that women are less than men. That a belief system treats over half the worlds people as less than human, is obscene. They all teach that theirs is the true way and have killed those who disbelieve. Many teach that certain foods or practices are inherently evil. Dim, very dim! Religion is all about control, but if you are to be truly free you must throw off the shackles of Dogma and wear the mantle of Humanity!
------------------------------------ "October: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks in." - Mark Twain
OK, accepting that the man who wrote this had no idea what he was talking about here is never the less a hasty demolition.
Dalek Dave wrote:
cannot help the delusional fools who believe in mumbo jumbo written by bronze age shepherds,
I've never met these people but I probably couldn't help them either.
Dalek Dave wrote:
I can, however, offer psychological help and deprogramming of the mind washing you have been subjected to.
Doubtful from someone who is clearly so ignorant.
Dalek Dave wrote:
The teaching of religious dogma to children is Child Abuse of the worst kind
Only if the dogma is wrong. What about if it's right?
Dalek Dave wrote:
inculcates obscenities in the form of acceptable behaviour.
We must take the authority of the author the he can judge what is acceptable and what is obscenity. Of course he cannot because he only has his flawed human understanding on which to base his judgement. The judge of the universe may not agree with him, tough.
Dalek Dave wrote:
All major religions teach that women are less than men
Straight forwardly false.
Dalek Dave wrote:
That a belief system treats over half the worlds people as less than human
What belief system, unspecific conflation that refers to a non definition.
Dalek Dave wrote:
They all teach that theirs is the true way
:doh: and clearly you don't.
Dalek Dave wrote:
and have killed those who disbelieve.
as well as those that do, those that believe differently and those that lie and claim they don't believe anything. Your point being?
Dalek Dave wrote:
Many teach that certain foods or practices are inherently evil
Which you have just done a few lines previous, prat, unless you're implying that religious indocrination of children is obscene but that doesn't equate to it being an evil practice, a satanist religious point of view but not one I'm about to countenance.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Religion is all about control
No it isn't or it wou
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I cannot help the delusional fools who believe in mumbo jumbo written by bronze age shepherds, I can, however, offer psychological help and deprogramming of the mind washing you have been subjected to. The teaching of religious dogma to children is Child Abuse of the worst kind, it hides under the veneer of respectability and yet inculcates obscenities in the form of acceptable behaviour. All major religions teach that women are less than men. That a belief system treats over half the worlds people as less than human, is obscene. They all teach that theirs is the true way and have killed those who disbelieve. Many teach that certain foods or practices are inherently evil. Dim, very dim! Religion is all about control, but if you are to be truly free you must throw off the shackles of Dogma and wear the mantle of Humanity!
------------------------------------ "October: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks in." - Mark Twain
Dalek Dave wrote:
Many teach that certain foods or practices are inherently evil. Dim, very dim!
That's a bit of an "issue" of mine at the moment - where is PETA when we permit Hallal and Kosher meat to be prepared in the most barbaric method possible, with the insistence that the animal involved must not be anaethetised in any way? Frankly, I don't care if I offend anyone, but Muslims and Jews should be ashamed of themselves for permitting it to continue.
C# has already designed away most of the tedium of C++.
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The historical fact of the ressurection of Jesus Christ from the dead is the full and final proof. In this he showed his supremecy over sin and death and demonstrated that the power of God is sufficient to save each and every one of us. These are not words of comfort to those who do not believe for if you accepted them it would mean the end of your world and your life as it now is. Those who think 'religion' or more specifically Christianity is a crutch are ignorant to the point of idiocy. Did he not say, 'Take up your cross and follow me'. But the ressurection is comfort indeed to those who do believe. It is the great victory that secures our inheritance. Though we may bear a cross in this life we are gaurenteed an eternity with God. What can separate us from the love of God? Neither height nor depth, not the powers of this world or of heaven or hell, not even sin and death. This is the absolute security of the redeemed, won at the cross. Can science speak to these things? Can it engage with such concepts much less pronounce on them? No, not without ceasing to be science and so denying itself. Let the scientists study what may be observed and propose their theories in the full humility of the knowledge that we at best are only ever thinking God's thoughts after him. A proper perspective will not harm science but God willing will redeem it.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
The historical fact of the ressurection of Jesus Christ from the dead is the full and final proof.
Codswallop - utter, unabashed, unadulterated codswallop....what a tool...
C# has already designed away most of the tedium of C++.
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Dalek Dave wrote:
Forum:The Soapbox - off-topic rants Subject:Re: Good Old Professor Dawkins Sender:Dalek Dave Date:Tuesday, October 21, 2008 12:13 PM His signiture states that Happiness is Freedom.
Incorrect, it states that Thucydides said as much.
Dalek Dave wrote:
He cannot be happy, for he is not free,
You speak of what you do not know, having never been free yourself how can you say I am not. What
Dalek Dave wrote:
religious observances
do you think I am bound by? What religious observances was Jesus bound by? Name one if you can. :)
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
What religious observances was Jesus bound by? Name one if you can.
Jesus was a Jew....you need a specific example?
C# has already designed away most of the tedium of C++.
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You seem to live in a state of persistent confusion Matthew. I'm not arguing for the existence of magikal sky-beings and fairies like you are. Indeed, I'm not arguing the existence of anything. I forgive you for misunderstanding this easily overlooked point because you seem to have a long and established record on that front. You see, it's you that is trying to claim the existence of 'god' - I don't need to argue anything at all. If you are trying to present 'god' as 'truth' than you have to show 'truth' without taking the existence of 'god' a priori. That's what you don't seem to understand. I'm not making an a priori claim for anything. And I don't have to - it's you and you alone that has to make the case in favour of your belief and not me that has to demonstrate that it's false. Invoking fictitious beings as 'truth' and then saying I have to demonstrate their non-existence in order to disprove them is idiocy of the highest order. Sorry, but nice try - unfortunately it's all I've come to expect from you and Ilion.
"If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name in a Swiss bank."
73Zeppelin wrote:
I'm not arguing for the existence of magikal sky-beings and fairies like you are.
No, I'm not, read your bible.
73Zeppelin wrote:
it's you that is trying to claim the existence of 'god'
No, It's God who proclaims his own existence, my opinion on the subject is entirely derivative and can as you say be easily dismissed. His on the other hand cannot.
73Zeppelin wrote:
you are trying to present 'god' as 'truth' than you have to show 'truth' without taking the existence of 'god' a priori.
Says who? you state that I must but you lack the authority. God says that you must believe in him first for this is the beginning of wisdom. Then you can understand the rest. His authority trumps yours.
73Zeppelin wrote:
you and you alone that has to make the case in favour of your belief and not me that has to demonstrate that it's false
You'll note that this is contrary to the scientific method, not that that's particularly relevant here.
73Zeppelin wrote:
Invoking fictitious beings
Something you have talked about but I have not done.
73Zeppelin wrote:
I have to demonstrate their non-existence in order to disprove them
Is not what I said. There is no possible disproof of the truth so why would I ask you for one?
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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The 'egregious proffessor for the public misunderstanding of science' Richard Dawkins is an idiot interfering in things he knows little and understands nothing about. All this campaign will achieve is to publicize that fact to a larger number of people and bring science as a whole into disrepute as a result.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
While it certainly is easy to react with a knee-jerk to Prof. Dawkins rhetoric, I think you're doing yourself a disservice by calling him an idiot. It would have been more interesting to hear you pick apart his text or his delivery of said text using reason. I do not understand what you mean by bringing “science” into disrepute. The scientific method is not a movement, and it most certainly does not have prophets or leaders that can tarnish the results and understandings of the universe it has brought us so far. Are you saying that people will start to distrust their microwave ovens or question the validity of the theory of gravity because of this advertisment? If you have the time, I suggest you watch the ‘Beyond Belief’ discussions on the science network[^], they are well worth the time. As a teaser, Prof. Dawkins gets called on for his ‘attacks’ on religion by both Prof. Lawrence Krauss and Prof. Scott Atran. You might enjoy that even though they both use reason in stead of name calling. Cheers!
--- "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest". -- Denis Diderot
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Jesus healed Lazarus using supernatural powers. I'm pretty sure that there's a slight rift between science and religion...
Interesting. My Bibles don't say how he did it, only what he did. Do you know more?
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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OK I will take your argument. I KNOW there is no god, Prove me wrong.
------------------------------------ "October: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks in." - Mark Twain
You have already proved yourself wrong by claiming knowledge that you cannot have. No further proof or in fact other proof can be obtained. It is impossible to KNOW for certain what is not true.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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73Zeppelin wrote:
I'm not arguing for the existence of magikal sky-beings and fairies like you are.
No, I'm not, read your bible.
73Zeppelin wrote:
it's you that is trying to claim the existence of 'god'
No, It's God who proclaims his own existence, my opinion on the subject is entirely derivative and can as you say be easily dismissed. His on the other hand cannot.
73Zeppelin wrote:
you are trying to present 'god' as 'truth' than you have to show 'truth' without taking the existence of 'god' a priori.
Says who? you state that I must but you lack the authority. God says that you must believe in him first for this is the beginning of wisdom. Then you can understand the rest. His authority trumps yours.
73Zeppelin wrote:
you and you alone that has to make the case in favour of your belief and not me that has to demonstrate that it's false
You'll note that this is contrary to the scientific method, not that that's particularly relevant here.
73Zeppelin wrote:
Invoking fictitious beings
Something you have talked about but I have not done.
73Zeppelin wrote:
I have to demonstrate their non-existence in order to disprove them
Is not what I said. There is no possible disproof of the truth so why would I ask you for one?
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
No, I'm not, read your bible.
I have to STUDY the ridiculous thing! It's compulsory...and probably illegal too. X|
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
No, It's God who proclaims his own existence, my opinion on the subject is entirely derivative and can as you say be easily dismissed. His on the other hand cannot.
My bed-goblin proclaims his own existence. He told me just then.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Says who? you state that I must but you lack the authority. God says that you must believe in him first for this is the beginning of wisdom. Then you can understand the rest. His authority trumps yours.
My bed-goblin says that you have to believe in him. He whispered it in my ear, just then. He has a weird raspy voice, it tickles my neck and sends shivers down my spine.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
You'll note that this is contrary to the scientific method, not that that's particularly relevant here.
Ah, no wonder you have no confidence in the scientific method. You don't understand it.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Is not what I said. There is no possible disproof of the truth so why would I ask you for one?
Not good enough.
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Interesting. My Bibles don't say how he did it, only what he did. Do you know more?
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
He did it through a rock wall when Lazarus was at least four days dead. Either he was a master illusionist, or he used some hitherto unrecognised witchcraft.
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Yet you believe in the the "unprovable negative" of the non-existence of other gods, which is the view atheists have of your own god.
It's not quite that simple. Many of these other gods definitely exist, they are simply not God or not even gods. Do atheists belive that the ancestors of Shinto believers don't exist, in a 4 dimensional universe, a tough one. Do atheists believe the troll rocks venerated by primitive nordic tribes do not exist, many still do. But yes atheist undoubtedly believe that Uhuru Mazda has no existence and fail to recognize the dangerous invocation of a powerful evil spirit.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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You are so conceited.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
I'll takes God's opinion over yours
You claim that god is this all powerful entity then claim to know his opinion. Wow, you ARE connected, hotline straight to god's thoughts! You also claim inability to disprove god. OK so you cannot disprove any god? or No god? It makes any further argument on your part, Spurious to say the least.
------------------------------------ "October: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks in." - Mark Twain
There is only one true God and I have no more of hotline than anyone else who reads his words and lives by his spirit.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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Are you in God's good graces?
Yes, thank God. :-D Grace it is indeed, for by grace we are saved, through faith, and this not of ourselves but a gift from God so than that no one can boast and in all things He may have the supremecy.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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Yes, thank God. :-D Grace it is indeed, for by grace we are saved, through faith, and this not of ourselves but a gift from God so than that no one can boast and in all things He may have the supremecy.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
Congratulations, you've just been burned at the stake for heresy.
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
What religious observances was Jesus bound by? Name one if you can.
Jesus was a Jew....you need a specific example?
C# has already designed away most of the tedium of C++.
A Jew who was attacked ceaselessly for challanging the religiousity and redundant practices of his society. Read your New Testament.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
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It's not quite that simple. Many of these other gods definitely exist, they are simply not God or not even gods. Do atheists belive that the ancestors of Shinto believers don't exist, in a 4 dimensional universe, a tough one. Do atheists believe the troll rocks venerated by primitive nordic tribes do not exist, many still do. But yes atheist undoubtedly believe that Uhuru Mazda has no existence and fail to recognize the dangerous invocation of a powerful evil spirit.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Many of these other gods definitely exist
Uhhh...
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
they are simply not God or not even gods.
Uhhh...
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Do atheists belive that the ancestors of Shinto believers don't exist, in a 4 dimensional universe, a tough one.
...
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Do atheists believe the troll rocks venerated by primitive nordic tribes do not exist, many still do.
...
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
But yes atheist undoubtedly believe that Uhuru Mazda has no existence and fail to recognize the dangerous invocation of a powerful evil spirit.
Yeah...
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It's not quite that simple. Many of these other gods definitely exist, they are simply not God or not even gods. Do atheists belive that the ancestors of Shinto believers don't exist, in a 4 dimensional universe, a tough one. Do atheists believe the troll rocks venerated by primitive nordic tribes do not exist, many still do. But yes atheist undoubtedly believe that Uhuru Mazda has no existence and fail to recognize the dangerous invocation of a powerful evil spirit.
"The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage." Thucydides (B.C. 460-400)
You can't worm out of it by shifting away from gods to other mythical beings. Your "unprovable" disbelief in other gods is the same "unprovable" disbelief that atheists have for your god.
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Jesus healed Lazarus using supernatural powers. I'm pretty sure that there's a slight rift between science and religion...
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
Jesus healed Lazarus using supernatural powers
How do you know that? Were you there? Did you at least read the Greek version of the New Testament? Or are you relying on what you saw in a movie once?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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It is impossible to prove a negative. And since atheists do not require a god to explain the universe, they merely observe and learn, they do not require a god to be believed in. Only people who lack the ability to think for themselves need a god to do the explaining for them. It is enough to believe that a garden is beautiful, without believing there are fairies at the bottom of it!
------------------------------------ "October: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks in." - Mark Twain