Solution for terrorism
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Talk about having a mixed heritage. My Arab side of the family don't think of me as a full Arab and my Canadian side of the family don't think of me as a full Canadian (bear in mind my first name is Steve-Mustafa and not Mustafa alone, but it becomes tiresome explaining that all the time).
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Talk about having a mixed heritage. My Arab side of the family don't think of me as a full Arab and my Canadian side of the family don't think of me as a full Canadian
Wow! We're on the same boat. My father and mother are from two different states in India and they ran their business on a different state and now are living in another one. I've been traveling all over the country (attended school, lived, worked in pretty much all the metros). I speak 4 Indian languages, and can understand 8. When someone asks me "Hi, where are you from?" or "You are a native of which state?" I'll just be tired explaining. Now all I need to do is to marry a girl from a completely different state who speaks a language that is not spoken in my family. Then my son will be even more troubled with the "Where are you from?" question. :laugh: But if you see, the world needs more babies of that kind. That is a way to abolish fights based on color, race, language, origin, etc., We'll spread the word.
It is a crappy thing, but it's life -^ Carlo Pallini
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Talk about having a mixed heritage. My Arab side of the family don't think of me as a full Arab and my Canadian side of the family don't think of me as a full Canadian
Wow! We're on the same boat. My father and mother are from two different states in India and they ran their business on a different state and now are living in another one. I've been traveling all over the country (attended school, lived, worked in pretty much all the metros). I speak 4 Indian languages, and can understand 8. When someone asks me "Hi, where are you from?" or "You are a native of which state?" I'll just be tired explaining. Now all I need to do is to marry a girl from a completely different state who speaks a language that is not spoken in my family. Then my son will be even more troubled with the "Where are you from?" question. :laugh: But if you see, the world needs more babies of that kind. That is a way to abolish fights based on color, race, language, origin, etc., We'll spread the word.
It is a crappy thing, but it's life -^ Carlo Pallini
Rajesh R Subramanian wrote:
But if you see, the world needs more babies of that kind. That is a way to abolish fights based on color, racism, language, origin, etc., We'll spread the word.
I wish. People, in general try to focus on the differences that separate us instead of what should be bringing us together.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
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Excellently put
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
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Stan Shannon wrote:
That cannot possibly be true. If it were, there would be no difficulty for muslim countries to control them
Which is, of course, why we aren't worried about Muslim extremists entering the U.S. and doing us damage. There are so few of them and so many of us that we would control them seconds after they showed up. Only in countries where they are encouraged to walk down the street wearing signs that say, "I am a terrorist," while firing their rifles in the air and drooling spittle out of their mouths, could a terrorist possibly not be controlled. Any efforts at concealment by terrorists are always unsuccesful because of Uncle Stan's terrost-finder - available to all non-Marxist governments for ten cents and two wheaties boxtops.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Jon, the reason there are not KKK guys blowing black churches is not because of some kind of government policing program, it is because we as a people finally refused to tolerate it, the underlieing social attitudes from which it grew dried up. If there is active terrorism in a society the fault does not lie primarily with an ineffective government, the fault lies with the people of that society itself. If a billion muslims really wanted the terrorism to end - it would end.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Save it Jon, he's beyond our help now, scorn and wit are useless on his thick rhino hide...
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Save it Jon, he's beyond our help now, scorn and wit are useless on his thick rhino hide...
Stan's always struck me as more of a hippo than a rhino. Most of his nuttiness stays submerged most of the time.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Yup fairly good definition there, would you say the USA has been responsible for terrorist actions?
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Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
I didn't expect to see my name here
You're famous, far and wide. :-D
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Specifically, in that post.
Cheers, Vıkram.
Stand up to be seen. Speak up to be heard. Shut up to be appreciated.
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Yes, but in Israel, most Palestinians are destitute and they git kicked when their down. A farmer working a relatively small plot of land doesn't have money that would go very far in a modern economy. Israel is an extremely expensive place to live in by their standards, now imagine when the IDF comes along and takes their land or destroys his farm with a bulldozer? Why? This is the injustice part that I mentioned in my earlier post, its not just poverty. But the whole Israel/Palestine issue is twisted beyond anything after 60 years of hate and grudges, atrocities have been committed by both sides and nothing sanctions that. But sadly, its being justified by both sides through anger and perceived righteousness.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Sorry, my point here was that there is more to terrorism than being poor and having injustice waged against you. There is the requirement that you have enough knowledge to understand that there can be something more than what is now, and a belief that what you do can impact the situation. In this case I only brought up the Israel because it has better available data on the terrorists than other examples.
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Sorry, my point here was that there is more to terrorism than being poor and having injustice waged against you. There is the requirement that you have enough knowledge to understand that there can be something more than what is now, and a belief that what you do can impact the situation. In this case I only brought up the Israel because it has better available data on the terrorists than other examples.
Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
RichardM1 wrote:
my point here was that there is more to terrorism than being poor and having injustice waged against you.
Certainly, its an extremely complicated issue, I agree with you 100% on that point. It was like I was telling Stan, they're not the only points, but they are major players.
RichardM1 wrote:
There is the requirement that you have enough knowledge to understand that there can be something more than what is now, and a belief that what you do can impact the situation.
This is exactly what terrorists think. They believe that by what they're doing, they're changing things to the better, their better which could be cowing the other party through terror.
RichardM1 wrote:
In this case I only brought up the Israel because it has better available data on the terrorists than other examples.
Yes, but that case is fraught with twists and turns. Terrorism could be interpreted both ways, Hamas & other factions vs Israel and easily the other way around.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
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RichardM1 wrote:
Jordanians (you know, the country most of Palestine belonged to before Israel took it over)
Where the hell did you get that idea from? Yes, the so called camps you talk about which are mentioned in the news are actually sprawling "cities" and not something rigged up in tents. You cannot compare this injustice with whats being meted out by the Israeli governemt/army to the Palestinians, particularly in the Gaza strip and the West Bank. How is destroying farmland, or bringing down a house atop the resident's roofs justice? How is being incarcerated for an indefinite period of time for no stated reason? How's having the shit being beaten out of you nearly every day for no obvious reason while in jail? How is fighting a tank with stones a crime punishable by death? Explain these to me: Clickety[^] and Clickety 2[^] and Clickety 3[^] Explain the hatred that existed during the time of the Haganah, when atrocities such as shooting a pregnant woman, making bets on whether the fetus inside is male or female and then ripping her corpse (sometimes, she's kept alive) to see who wins the bet? Explain why many IDF personnel would actively stop an ambulance from reaching a victim so that no medical aid may be provided? Why is the aid ship that was coming to Gaza these past few days turned back? Like I said, there's a lot of hate going on there and there's a ton of injustice from the Israeli side. That's not to say that a fraction of what you're saying is true about the way neighboring countries are dealing with Palestinian refugees, but your claim that most of Palestine was a part of Jordan before it was taken over, that is just laughable. I'd love to see citations regarding that one.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Fo
Sorry I did not respond earlier, but I have had some long days at work, and I knew this would take a while.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
How is fighting a tank with stones a crime punishable by death?
LOL! Are you kidding me? Have you ever been hit by a rock? 1) Rocks are effing lethal force. 2) When you use lethal force against an armed adversary, expect lethal force to be used back at you. 3) Attacking a tank with anything less than an anti tank weapon is a crime against nature, punishable by Darwin's best award, removal from the gene pool. So you might not like that answer, but yes, it is a crime punishable by death. You may think it is 'uncivilized', but so is getting killed from being hit in the head with a rock. Just because rocks are not as accurate does not make it any less of an attack with a deadly weapon. Palestinian Arabs are lucky that that the modern Western civilization has convinced the Israelis not to treat all rock attacks as lethal force attacks.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
RichardM1 wrote: Jordanians (you know, the country most of Palestine belonged to before Israel took it over) Where the hell did you get that idea from?
My first question to you is, what would it take for you to believe it? I will support what I said, and I will use the UN and Jordan to justify my statements, but you need to ask yourself: "Will these facts matter to me?" From the pre-67 border to now, the vast majority of land taken from Arabs was from Jordan: the West Bank. In 1988, Jordan ceded the West Bank to the PLO. [Jordanian Link] How did they get it? Well, at the time, they didn't have it, Israel did. They took it from Jordan. (Do you need a link?) In 1950 Jordan annexed the West Bank (at least Jordan thought so, Arab League did not). Annexed from who? Well, best I can tell from the UN, Britain. How did the Brits get it? They stole it fair and square (according to the LoN) from the Ottoman Empire after WWI, called it the Palestinian Mandate, planned to plop a Jewish state there from the very beginning. [UN link][
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Sorry I did not respond earlier, but I have had some long days at work, and I knew this would take a while.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
How is fighting a tank with stones a crime punishable by death?
LOL! Are you kidding me? Have you ever been hit by a rock? 1) Rocks are effing lethal force. 2) When you use lethal force against an armed adversary, expect lethal force to be used back at you. 3) Attacking a tank with anything less than an anti tank weapon is a crime against nature, punishable by Darwin's best award, removal from the gene pool. So you might not like that answer, but yes, it is a crime punishable by death. You may think it is 'uncivilized', but so is getting killed from being hit in the head with a rock. Just because rocks are not as accurate does not make it any less of an attack with a deadly weapon. Palestinian Arabs are lucky that that the modern Western civilization has convinced the Israelis not to treat all rock attacks as lethal force attacks.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
RichardM1 wrote: Jordanians (you know, the country most of Palestine belonged to before Israel took it over) Where the hell did you get that idea from?
My first question to you is, what would it take for you to believe it? I will support what I said, and I will use the UN and Jordan to justify my statements, but you need to ask yourself: "Will these facts matter to me?" From the pre-67 border to now, the vast majority of land taken from Arabs was from Jordan: the West Bank. In 1988, Jordan ceded the West Bank to the PLO. [Jordanian Link] How did they get it? Well, at the time, they didn't have it, Israel did. They took it from Jordan. (Do you need a link?) In 1950 Jordan annexed the West Bank (at least Jordan thought so, Arab League did not). Annexed from who? Well, best I can tell from the UN, Britain. How did the Brits get it? They stole it fair and square (according to the LoN) from the Ottoman Empire after WWI, called it the Palestinian Mandate, planned to plop a Jewish state there from the very beginning. [UN link][
RichardM1 wrote:
Sorry I did not respond earlier, but I have had some long days at work, and I knew this would take a while.
No worries, I know what that is like.
RichardM1 wrote:
LOL! Are you kidding me? Have you ever been hit by a rock?
Yes I have, my nose was broken by a rock that was hurled at me.
RichardM1 wrote:
- Rocks are effing lethal force. 2) When you use lethal force against an armed adversary, expect lethal force to be used back at you. 3) Attacking a tank with anything less than an anti tank weapon is a crime against nature, punishable by Darwin's best award, removal from the gene pool. So you might not like that answer, but yes, it is a crime punishable by death. You may think it is 'uncivilized', but so is getting killed from being hit in the head with a rock. Just because rocks are not as accurate does not make it any less of an attack with a deadly weapon. Palestinian Arabs are lucky that that the modern Western civilization has convinced the Israelis not to treat all rock attacks as lethal force attacks.
That is the most ludicrous thing I've heard/read all day. I think you don't realize that its retaliation with rocks against and armored Merkava tank. If someone is attacking you with a tank and all you have is a nearby rock or even shoes then I'm pretty damned sure you'll be fighting back with those. Keywords: fighting back. After the numerous massacres and completely unwarranted attacks that were conducted by the so called Israeli "Defense" Force, they do have the right to fight back. I find it amusing that you automatically assume that the youth in the video was "arrested" because he was firing a salvo of rockets against Israel. I also find it funny that you chose to completely ignore my other claims, such as those of terror groups like the Haganah or why a women in labor is considered a terrorist attack warranting her detention at a military check post instead of being allowed to go to a hospital for proper care (this has happened numerous times, not just once or twice). Yes, 1988, Jordan ceded the West Bank back to the Palestinian people. The British Mandate simply carved out territory that was arrested during an Arab revolt to finally rid themselves of Ottoman oppressors(as they were viewed at the time), this Anglo-Arab alliance produced the well known Lawrence of Arabi
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RichardM1 wrote:
Sorry I did not respond earlier, but I have had some long days at work, and I knew this would take a while.
No worries, I know what that is like.
RichardM1 wrote:
LOL! Are you kidding me? Have you ever been hit by a rock?
Yes I have, my nose was broken by a rock that was hurled at me.
RichardM1 wrote:
- Rocks are effing lethal force. 2) When you use lethal force against an armed adversary, expect lethal force to be used back at you. 3) Attacking a tank with anything less than an anti tank weapon is a crime against nature, punishable by Darwin's best award, removal from the gene pool. So you might not like that answer, but yes, it is a crime punishable by death. You may think it is 'uncivilized', but so is getting killed from being hit in the head with a rock. Just because rocks are not as accurate does not make it any less of an attack with a deadly weapon. Palestinian Arabs are lucky that that the modern Western civilization has convinced the Israelis not to treat all rock attacks as lethal force attacks.
That is the most ludicrous thing I've heard/read all day. I think you don't realize that its retaliation with rocks against and armored Merkava tank. If someone is attacking you with a tank and all you have is a nearby rock or even shoes then I'm pretty damned sure you'll be fighting back with those. Keywords: fighting back. After the numerous massacres and completely unwarranted attacks that were conducted by the so called Israeli "Defense" Force, they do have the right to fight back. I find it amusing that you automatically assume that the youth in the video was "arrested" because he was firing a salvo of rockets against Israel. I also find it funny that you chose to completely ignore my other claims, such as those of terror groups like the Haganah or why a women in labor is considered a terrorist attack warranting her detention at a military check post instead of being allowed to go to a hospital for proper care (this has happened numerous times, not just once or twice). Yes, 1988, Jordan ceded the West Bank back to the Palestinian people. The British Mandate simply carved out territory that was arrested during an Arab revolt to finally rid themselves of Ottoman oppressors(as they were viewed at the time), this Anglo-Arab alliance produced the well known Lawrence of Arabi
You are reading my words, but I don't think you are hearing what I am saying. :sigh: I don't really care if it was against a merkava, a T-90, an M1A2 or a datsun pickup with a m-60 on the back! If you employ aggressive methods against people with weapons, expect them to use deadly force back at you. Now, if they are already attacking you with a tank, then there should be even more expectation of a violent response from them. If that seems ludicrous to you, then you need to re-think your mental rule book of things to do and things not to do. :doh:
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I find it amusing that you automatically assume that the youth in the video was "arrested" because he was firing a salvo of rockets against Israel. :confused:
Is that what you inferred from it? I did not imply that he had, and referred to him as a 'protester'. I was pointing out that 'atrocity' that you showed is purposefully less lethal than firing free flight, unguided rockets, towards civilian settlements. It was a bad choice of issues to use to prove how horrible the Israelis are, compared to the likes of Hamas.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Jordan ceded the West Bank back to the Palestinian people
Nice try, but to further quote King Hussein;
In November 1974 King Hussein stated:
Read "no longer Jordan" as "It was Jordan's, we annexed it, the Israelis took it, and we don't have a snowball's chance of getting it back, so lets make it the PLO's problem, since we love Arafat so much." :-\ So 'ceded to', not 'ceded back to', is correct.
Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
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You are reading my words, but I don't think you are hearing what I am saying. :sigh: I don't really care if it was against a merkava, a T-90, an M1A2 or a datsun pickup with a m-60 on the back! If you employ aggressive methods against people with weapons, expect them to use deadly force back at you. Now, if they are already attacking you with a tank, then there should be even more expectation of a violent response from them. If that seems ludicrous to you, then you need to re-think your mental rule book of things to do and things not to do. :doh:
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I find it amusing that you automatically assume that the youth in the video was "arrested" because he was firing a salvo of rockets against Israel. :confused:
Is that what you inferred from it? I did not imply that he had, and referred to him as a 'protester'. I was pointing out that 'atrocity' that you showed is purposefully less lethal than firing free flight, unguided rockets, towards civilian settlements. It was a bad choice of issues to use to prove how horrible the Israelis are, compared to the likes of Hamas.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Jordan ceded the West Bank back to the Palestinian people
Nice try, but to further quote King Hussein;
In November 1974 King Hussein stated:
Read "no longer Jordan" as "It was Jordan's, we annexed it, the Israelis took it, and we don't have a snowball's chance of getting it back, so lets make it the PLO's problem, since we love Arafat so much." :-\ So 'ceded to', not 'ceded back to', is correct.
Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
Richard, are you even comprehending the intent of my arguments? I'm a Palestinian through my father yes, but I'm one of the new moderates that are showing themselves in the Arab world. Atrocities exist in the history of actions of both sides. You tell me, if some group attacked your person or source of livelihood, would you or would you not fight back? What if they had better weaponry? What if they had guns, machine guns, APCs and Tanks? I'm sure you'd fight back with whatever you can reach, including sticks, stones, slippers, shoes and molotov cocktails. You'd fight back is the point I'm trying to get across.
RichardM1 wrote:
I was pointing out that 'atrocity' that you showed is purposefully less lethal than firing free flight, unguided rockets, towards civilian settlements.
You picked one out of the three videos, and the one that can be construed as weak, if you assume that shooting/abusing an arrested protester is perfectly acceptable behavior that is. Explain the third video where they smashed the youth's elbow? Explain the Haganah? I am comparing the IDF and its policies to Hamas. In fact, I'm saying that they are both assholes and that their policies are certainly detriment in creating a lasting peace in the region. Of course, you can add several other factions with a vested interest in maintaining this horrible dispute such as Hezbollah. By the way, don't be naive in assuming that Israelis and Palestinians are the only ones that are being hurt by this dragged out turmoil. The whole region is in particular and Arabs & Muslims in general are. I still will get back to you on the whole land issue and I promise I will, I just need to reference someone who knows more about this than I do so that I can get you some proper citations that would carry some proper weight. I hate to argue about something that I'm not an expert in. But you will have to be a bit patient Richard, today is the start of the Eid Holidays and the work crunch is still with me, so that along with the requisite social obligations that exist are taxing and I apologize for that. Incidentally, have you been to the region? You'd certainly see things under a different light and by that I don't mean that you'll take either side, you'd just see things differently. Very much so.
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Richard, are you even comprehending the intent of my arguments? I'm a Palestinian through my father yes, but I'm one of the new moderates that are showing themselves in the Arab world. Atrocities exist in the history of actions of both sides. You tell me, if some group attacked your person or source of livelihood, would you or would you not fight back? What if they had better weaponry? What if they had guns, machine guns, APCs and Tanks? I'm sure you'd fight back with whatever you can reach, including sticks, stones, slippers, shoes and molotov cocktails. You'd fight back is the point I'm trying to get across.
RichardM1 wrote:
I was pointing out that 'atrocity' that you showed is purposefully less lethal than firing free flight, unguided rockets, towards civilian settlements.
You picked one out of the three videos, and the one that can be construed as weak, if you assume that shooting/abusing an arrested protester is perfectly acceptable behavior that is. Explain the third video where they smashed the youth's elbow? Explain the Haganah? I am comparing the IDF and its policies to Hamas. In fact, I'm saying that they are both assholes and that their policies are certainly detriment in creating a lasting peace in the region. Of course, you can add several other factions with a vested interest in maintaining this horrible dispute such as Hezbollah. By the way, don't be naive in assuming that Israelis and Palestinians are the only ones that are being hurt by this dragged out turmoil. The whole region is in particular and Arabs & Muslims in general are. I still will get back to you on the whole land issue and I promise I will, I just need to reference someone who knows more about this than I do so that I can get you some proper citations that would carry some proper weight. I hate to argue about something that I'm not an expert in. But you will have to be a bit patient Richard, today is the start of the Eid Holidays and the work crunch is still with me, so that along with the requisite social obligations that exist are taxing and I apologize for that. Incidentally, have you been to the region? You'd certainly see things under a different light and by that I don't mean that you'll take either side, you'd just see things differently. Very much so.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
You tell me, if some group attacked your person or source of livelihood, would you or would you not fight back? What if they had better weaponry? What if they had guns, machine guns, APCs and Tanks? I'm sure you'd fight back with whatever you can reach, including sticks, stones, slippers, shoes and molotov cocktails. You'd fight back is the point I'm trying to get across.
Yes I would fight back, it is how I was brought up, and how I was trained. Where did I ever give you or anyone else a hard time for fighting back? What I said was that if you attack a military force, expect them to react in the manner a military force acts. If you attack them, they fight back. That usually means they try and kill you. I would never attack a tank with rocks. It might scare the people inside, and it does not have a chance of hurting them. If I were to attack a tank, it would be with flame weapons or explosives. But if I attacked it, I would expect it to fight back, whether I am using an anti-tank mine, or a rock. If you think it is OK to fight back, why don't you think it is ok for them to fight back? Would you fight with one hand tied behind your back? When it is life or death, it is not a question of fair, it is a question of winning.
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Richard, are you even comprehending the intent of my arguments? I'm a Palestinian through my father yes, but I'm one of the new moderates that are showing themselves in the Arab world. Atrocities exist in the history of actions of both sides. You tell me, if some group attacked your person or source of livelihood, would you or would you not fight back? What if they had better weaponry? What if they had guns, machine guns, APCs and Tanks? I'm sure you'd fight back with whatever you can reach, including sticks, stones, slippers, shoes and molotov cocktails. You'd fight back is the point I'm trying to get across.
RichardM1 wrote:
I was pointing out that 'atrocity' that you showed is purposefully less lethal than firing free flight, unguided rockets, towards civilian settlements.
You picked one out of the three videos, and the one that can be construed as weak, if you assume that shooting/abusing an arrested protester is perfectly acceptable behavior that is. Explain the third video where they smashed the youth's elbow? Explain the Haganah? I am comparing the IDF and its policies to Hamas. In fact, I'm saying that they are both assholes and that their policies are certainly detriment in creating a lasting peace in the region. Of course, you can add several other factions with a vested interest in maintaining this horrible dispute such as Hezbollah. By the way, don't be naive in assuming that Israelis and Palestinians are the only ones that are being hurt by this dragged out turmoil. The whole region is in particular and Arabs & Muslims in general are. I still will get back to you on the whole land issue and I promise I will, I just need to reference someone who knows more about this than I do so that I can get you some proper citations that would carry some proper weight. I hate to argue about something that I'm not an expert in. But you will have to be a bit patient Richard, today is the start of the Eid Holidays and the work crunch is still with me, so that along with the requisite social obligations that exist are taxing and I apologize for that. Incidentally, have you been to the region? You'd certainly see things under a different light and by that I don't mean that you'll take either side, you'd just see things differently. Very much so.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
You picked one out of the three videos, and the one that can be construed as weak, if you assume that shooting/abusing an arrested protester is perfectly acceptable behavior that is. Explain the third video where they smashed the youth's elbow? Explain the Haganah?
You want me to explain terrorism to you? You may need to back out past you affiliations and try and look at the objective picture. Terror is not right when ANYONE does it, the oppressor, or the oppressed. The Haganah was no different than the PLO, except they are no longer around. It stated goal was even the same: drive out the X and create a Y state. Only for them, X was British, not Jews, and Y was Jewish, not Palestinian I never said that torture by the IDF was right, I said it was not reasonable to respond by firing indiscriminately at civilian targets. If it is considered a victory and a blow for 'freedom' every time Hamas, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades or Fatah kills civilians, it is hard for them to complain about the IDF causing some civilian casualties when prosecuting a military target. It is hard to complain about the IDF breaking someones elbows when the Palestinian response is blowing up a bus full of civilians.
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Richard, are you even comprehending the intent of my arguments? I'm a Palestinian through my father yes, but I'm one of the new moderates that are showing themselves in the Arab world. Atrocities exist in the history of actions of both sides. You tell me, if some group attacked your person or source of livelihood, would you or would you not fight back? What if they had better weaponry? What if they had guns, machine guns, APCs and Tanks? I'm sure you'd fight back with whatever you can reach, including sticks, stones, slippers, shoes and molotov cocktails. You'd fight back is the point I'm trying to get across.
RichardM1 wrote:
I was pointing out that 'atrocity' that you showed is purposefully less lethal than firing free flight, unguided rockets, towards civilian settlements.
You picked one out of the three videos, and the one that can be construed as weak, if you assume that shooting/abusing an arrested protester is perfectly acceptable behavior that is. Explain the third video where they smashed the youth's elbow? Explain the Haganah? I am comparing the IDF and its policies to Hamas. In fact, I'm saying that they are both assholes and that their policies are certainly detriment in creating a lasting peace in the region. Of course, you can add several other factions with a vested interest in maintaining this horrible dispute such as Hezbollah. By the way, don't be naive in assuming that Israelis and Palestinians are the only ones that are being hurt by this dragged out turmoil. The whole region is in particular and Arabs & Muslims in general are. I still will get back to you on the whole land issue and I promise I will, I just need to reference someone who knows more about this than I do so that I can get you some proper citations that would carry some proper weight. I hate to argue about something that I'm not an expert in. But you will have to be a bit patient Richard, today is the start of the Eid Holidays and the work crunch is still with me, so that along with the requisite social obligations that exist are taxing and I apologize for that. Incidentally, have you been to the region? You'd certainly see things under a different light and by that I don't mean that you'll take either side, you'd just see things differently. Very much so.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
By the way, don't be naive in assuming that Israelis and Palestinians are the only ones that are being hurt by this dragged out turmoil. The whole region is in particular and Arabs & Muslims in general are.
Where did you see me assume this? I particularly pointed out that the Arab dictatorships use this to keep power. The more problems there are between Israel and the Palestinians, the longer they can keep up their jingoistic propaganda and shore up their poorly run and corrupt governments.
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Richard, are you even comprehending the intent of my arguments? I'm a Palestinian through my father yes, but I'm one of the new moderates that are showing themselves in the Arab world. Atrocities exist in the history of actions of both sides. You tell me, if some group attacked your person or source of livelihood, would you or would you not fight back? What if they had better weaponry? What if they had guns, machine guns, APCs and Tanks? I'm sure you'd fight back with whatever you can reach, including sticks, stones, slippers, shoes and molotov cocktails. You'd fight back is the point I'm trying to get across.
RichardM1 wrote:
I was pointing out that 'atrocity' that you showed is purposefully less lethal than firing free flight, unguided rockets, towards civilian settlements.
You picked one out of the three videos, and the one that can be construed as weak, if you assume that shooting/abusing an arrested protester is perfectly acceptable behavior that is. Explain the third video where they smashed the youth's elbow? Explain the Haganah? I am comparing the IDF and its policies to Hamas. In fact, I'm saying that they are both assholes and that their policies are certainly detriment in creating a lasting peace in the region. Of course, you can add several other factions with a vested interest in maintaining this horrible dispute such as Hezbollah. By the way, don't be naive in assuming that Israelis and Palestinians are the only ones that are being hurt by this dragged out turmoil. The whole region is in particular and Arabs & Muslims in general are. I still will get back to you on the whole land issue and I promise I will, I just need to reference someone who knows more about this than I do so that I can get you some proper citations that would carry some proper weight. I hate to argue about something that I'm not an expert in. But you will have to be a bit patient Richard, today is the start of the Eid Holidays and the work crunch is still with me, so that along with the requisite social obligations that exist are taxing and I apologize for that. Incidentally, have you been to the region? You'd certainly see things under a different light and by that I don't mean that you'll take either side, you'd just see things differently. Very much so.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I still will get back to you on the whole land issue and I promise I will, I just need to reference someone who knows more about this than I do so that I can get you some proper citations that would carry some proper weight. I hate to argue about something that I'm not an expert in. But you will have to be a bit patient Richard, today is the start of the Eid Holidays and the work crunch is still with me, so that along with the requisite social obligations that exist are taxing and I apologize for that.
If you go to someone who 'knows more than you', remember to keep their point of view in mind. Research what they say, and what they don't say. Use them as a tool, but do not let them make up your mind for you. I don't ask you to take what I say at face value, I ask you to research what I say before you try and refute it. I used the words and maps of the UN and the words of King Hussein. I could have gone to a number of sites that supported what I said, but whose point of view would be considered tainted. Consider using the technique when convincing me. If I used quotes from Ben-Gurion, Sharon or Rabin, or links to a pro-Israeli web site, you would dismiss them out of hand. If you want to provide quotes and links to me, don't quote Arafat or link to a pro-Palestinian site.
Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
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Richard, are you even comprehending the intent of my arguments? I'm a Palestinian through my father yes, but I'm one of the new moderates that are showing themselves in the Arab world. Atrocities exist in the history of actions of both sides. You tell me, if some group attacked your person or source of livelihood, would you or would you not fight back? What if they had better weaponry? What if they had guns, machine guns, APCs and Tanks? I'm sure you'd fight back with whatever you can reach, including sticks, stones, slippers, shoes and molotov cocktails. You'd fight back is the point I'm trying to get across.
RichardM1 wrote:
I was pointing out that 'atrocity' that you showed is purposefully less lethal than firing free flight, unguided rockets, towards civilian settlements.
You picked one out of the three videos, and the one that can be construed as weak, if you assume that shooting/abusing an arrested protester is perfectly acceptable behavior that is. Explain the third video where they smashed the youth's elbow? Explain the Haganah? I am comparing the IDF and its policies to Hamas. In fact, I'm saying that they are both assholes and that their policies are certainly detriment in creating a lasting peace in the region. Of course, you can add several other factions with a vested interest in maintaining this horrible dispute such as Hezbollah. By the way, don't be naive in assuming that Israelis and Palestinians are the only ones that are being hurt by this dragged out turmoil. The whole region is in particular and Arabs & Muslims in general are. I still will get back to you on the whole land issue and I promise I will, I just need to reference someone who knows more about this than I do so that I can get you some proper citations that would carry some proper weight. I hate to argue about something that I'm not an expert in. But you will have to be a bit patient Richard, today is the start of the Eid Holidays and the work crunch is still with me, so that along with the requisite social obligations that exist are taxing and I apologize for that. Incidentally, have you been to the region? You'd certainly see things under a different light and by that I don't mean that you'll take either side, you'd just see things differently. Very much so.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Incidentally, have you been to the region? You'd certainly see things under a different light and by that I don't mean that you'll take either side, you'd just see things differently. Very much so
I have seen violence. I have seen what the land in the Middle East looks like. I have worked with both Arabs and Israelis. I understand that if I were to come upon the aftermath of a bus blown up by a Palestinian martyr, I would be very angry at the senseless violence by the Palestinians, and if I came across the IDF beating the crap out of peaceful Palestinian (and Jewish) protesters, I would despise them for their actions. I know both happen, seeing the blood of either first hand does not make the other any more correct.
Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Incidentally, have you been to the region? You'd certainly see things under a different light and by that I don't mean that you'll take either side, you'd just see things differently. Very much so
I have seen violence. I have seen what the land in the Middle East looks like. I have worked with both Arabs and Israelis. I understand that if I were to come upon the aftermath of a bus blown up by a Palestinian martyr, I would be very angry at the senseless violence by the Palestinians, and if I came across the IDF beating the crap out of peaceful Palestinian (and Jewish) protesters, I would despise them for their actions. I know both happen, seeing the blood of either first hand does not make the other any more correct.
Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
RichardM1 wrote:
I know both happen, seeing the blood of either first hand does not make the other any more correct.
Thank you. You've worded it perfectly. Don't worry about the researching, I'm not so naive as to accept anything out of hand. I assure you, it'll be as unbiased as possible [the research regarding anything I'm told].
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib