Israel is certainly breeding a new generation of hate and radicalism

[Oakman]

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

Elected because at the time they were sick of Fatah's corruption

Oh please. Surely you could come up with a better excuse?

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

I'm looking for the citation

Try following mine which takes you a big m-f demonstration about how much Gaza loves Hamas.

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

This automatically renders 99.99% of all Hamas' activities and by extension all the different takfiri groups such as Al-Qaeda and those twits that did the recent Mumbai attacks un-Islamic because the implication of that hadith also adds that he who does not obey these rules is not one of us, meaning a Muslim.

It appears that a great many Muslims don't agree with you.

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

Israel is certainly breeding the new generation by making the younger generation so angry and frustrated and humiliated that they're rushing to the ranks of those who they believe will give them a chance at revenge.

There is no magic wand available to Israel that will give them secure borders AND keep Hamas from attacking. When Hamas announced the end of the ceasefire, Israel was left with no options. If Hamas's Arab brothers wish to, it would be easy enough for Egypt and Saudi Arabia to send in peace-keeping forces, I am sure Israel would be delighted.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Oakman]

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

You really think Hamas would invite civilians to disarm them?

I'm not clear on what you are saying. It's quite easy to find links showing that the population of Gaza supports Hamas, yet you seem to be implying otherwise. You claim that the Hamas are un-Islamic, yet hundreds of Mullahs proclaim their virtue. You blame Israel for bottling up Gaza when it was the Egyptians that closed the checkpoints. You blame Israel for responding to Hamas ending the ceasefire as if they had a choice. (Would Canada accept the US firing a couple of hundred missiles a day into its territory on the grounds that only a few Canadians had been killed?)

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

Oakman wrote:

Oh please. Surely you could come up with a better excuse?

Because its true makes it an excuse?

Oakman wrote:

Try following mine which takes you a big m-f demonstration about how much Gaza loves Hamas.

How about my neighbors who are from Gaza? How about tons of my friends? Some of whom happened to come back to Amman a few days before this whole thing flared up? I'd much rather take it from the people who are there or were there extremely recently. Just because its a huge demonstration, it doesn't mean that everyone is the same. Sure, you could say the same about what I'm saying, but the general population can't stand them now.

Oakman wrote:

It appears that a great many Muslims don't agree with you.

Doesn't make it any less true.

Oakman wrote:

There is no magic wand available to Israel that will give them secure borders AND keep Hamas from attacking. When Hamas announced the end of the ceasefire, Israel was left with no options. If Hamas's Arab brothers wish to, it would be easy enough for Egypt and Saudi Arabia to send in peace-keeping forces, I am sure Israel would be delighted.

I very much doubt that Israel would welcome anyone from the region, the possible exception might be Turkey. But that wouldn't solve it. Israel, whether you like it or not or whether you admit it or not, is committing atrocities that amount to war crimes. Israel certainly has the right to protect its borders, but that doesn't mean it can come close to the annihilation of a people in Gaza. Also, I've been seeing on the news at my parent's place that they're using white phosphorus bombs which from what was broadcast was banned in 1980 by some convention in Geneva. Atop all of that, Israel has a repeated history of attacking humanitarian workers, Red Crescent/Red Cross workers, not permitting ambulances to move with ease and so on. Collectively, all of that, to me, does not describe a nation that is defending itself, far from it, it is more of a nation that is really committing state sanctioned war crimes in the name of self-defense. As always, I maintain that that does not justify what Hamas is doing can be considered right under any light.

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[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

Oakman wrote:

yet you seem to be implying otherwise.

Certainly. I'm not saying that they don't have a power base but they are certainly being hated on a daily basis but at the same time, the people are hating Israel more and more.

Oakman wrote:

You claim that the Hamas are un-Islamic

I claim that their actions are completely un-Islamic, sadly, many think otherwise. Power is an evil thing and it can corrupt anyone. At one point, Hamas was created with the noblest of intentions and they were trying to go the Islamic path, I'm sure of this, but somewhere down the road, this got perverted into a quest for power. Certainly, they're still yelling out the same slogans, repeating their goals, but they have diverted from them.

Oakman wrote:

yet hundreds of Mullahs proclaim their virtue.

And thousands more proclaim their vices. That's not to say that said Mullahs (although Imam or Sheikh is the better word to use) don't cry out for a solution, military or otherwise, for liberating Palestine from Zionism. Notice Zionism, not Judaism. People mistakenly start mixing this as a conflict between religions and it appears to have become that, but what it really is, its a fight between Palestinians and Zionism.

Oakman wrote:

You blame Israel for bottling up Gaza when it was the Egyptians that closed the checkpoints.

Egypt recently closed the checkpoints, how long ago has Israel kept Gaza under a blockade?

Oakman wrote:

couple of hundred missiles a day

the numbers you are posting are seriously exaggerated. I'm not saying that Hamas is right, please keep that in mind because I'm repeating it many many times Jon. But I'm also saying that Israel is not right. I don't blame Israel for responding, I'm blaming Israel for the way its responding.

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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.

I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollsl

[Oakman]

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

Because its true makes it an excuse?

When what you suggest is so rediculously petty as to be meaningless when compared to what you are trying to explain, you bet.

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

Just because its a huge demonstration, it doesn't mean that everyone is the same.

Then your friends and neighbors need to either stand up like men and throw off their chains, or run away. Because too many of their friends and neighbors are supporting Hamas for Israel to allow Gaza to continue to attack it.

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

Israel, whether you like it or not or whether you admit it or not, is committing atrocities that amount to war crimes.

Atrocity has a pretty particular meaning. I'm not sure that even the suicide bombings of cafes and school buses qualifies as atrocities. I am positive that collateral damage does not.

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

Israel certainly has the right to protect its borders, but that doesn't mean it can come close to the annihilation of a people in Gaza.

Nor is it. In two weeks of fighting, less than 1000 citizens of Gaza have lost their lives, and many of them were Hamas foot soldiers. To categorize this as some war of annihilation is laughably exagerated and propagandistic. The sort of BS Adnan likes to spew.

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

Atop all of that, Israel has a repeated history of attacking humanitarian workers, Red Crescent/Red Cross workers, not permitting ambulances to move with ease and so on.

It's war. Which part of that don't you understand? You think the Marquis of Queenbury rules are in effect? Moreover it a war that was declared by your precious Hamas, the elected representative of the people of Gaza. You can dance around this all you want, but you will not be able to explain it away in any sane world.

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

state sanctioned war crimes in the name of self-defense.

Such as what? Shooting at the guys who are shooting rockets at them?

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

As always, I maintain that that does not justify what Hamas is doing can be considered right under any light.

N

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

Oakman wrote:

The sort of BS Adnan likes to spew.

Oakman wrote:

your precious Hamas

Let's not get insulting and keep this civil please. You know very well I'm not like Adnan at all and that I'm certainly not for Hamas or any other "religious" militant group, Islamic or otherwise.

Oakman wrote:

When what you suggest is so rediculously petty as to be meaningless when compared to what you are trying to explain, you bet.

Petty or not, in essence that is exactly what happened. After years of sheer corruption and an insane amount of propaganda and terrorizing, Hamas won. Again, they did have a power base which grew because of the way the Palestinian people viewed the failed way in which Fatah was dealing with the situation. Hamas won by a decent margin and then when they turned out to be even worse, they started losing their popularity and power base after which Abbas dissolved the government which caused their 'coup'.

Oakman wrote:

Then your friends and neighbors need to either stand up like men and throw off their chains, or run away

Hamas, like all other militant groups I know of, are simply armed thugs with their own selfish agenda in mind. I have heard of two incidents where people tried to stand up to them, one of which was when they took over a house to use for some purpose of theirs. When the owner of the house protested, he was killed along with his family as a lesson to other people in the neighborhood. This is certainly not Islamic, nor is it of any religion. People have been cowed. I would wish that they would fight back. What makes it really bad is that knowing all of this, they still have supporters and whats even worse is that their supporters would cheer them on or do the job for them. Twisted is a term that could more or less describe it. Running away is about the only option the majority of the people have.

Oakman wrote:

Nor is it. In two weeks of fighting, less than 1000 citizens of Gaza have lost their lives, and many of them were Hamas foot soldiers. To categorize this as some war of annihilation is laughably exagerated and propagandistic.

Hamas foot soldiers dying is one thing, when the number of civilian casualties and injuries rises, it becomes something else entirely. Just

[Oakman]

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

I'm not saying that they don't have a power base

Then stop painting them as occupiers.

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

but at the same time, the people are hating Israel more and more.

More than what? More than Arafat who said the the Palestinians would drown Israel in Palestinian blood?

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

for liberating Palestine from Zionism. Notice Zionism, not Judaism

code for "push them into the sea." Until and unless these people recognize that Israel does exist and grant that it has the right to exist in the future, these religious leaders are praying while their hands are dipped in blood.

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

Egypt recently closed the checkpoints, how long ago has Israel kept Gaza under a blockade?

Egypt closed the checkpoints in June, 2007. That's 18 months ago. They have occasionally opened the barriers for short periods of time, but so has Israel. You might want to remember that the lockdown started after Hamas attacked an Israeli checkpoint and killed some of the guards while kidnapping others.

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

the numbers you are posting are seriously exaggerated

No, they are not, although to be totally accurate I should say rockets and mortar shells. Sooner or later you need to stop denying the truth.

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

I don't blame Israel for responding, I'm blaming Israel for the way its responding.

What should they have done, said "pretty please?" Their goal is to do what you say the citizens of Gaza want to see done - eliminate Hamas as a viable organization; make it incapable of threatening either Israel or the people you say it holds in thrall.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

Oakman wrote:

Then stop painting them as occupiers.

They certainly are occupiers. They have unlawfully took over Gaza through their para-military actions against the government when Abbas dissolved it. If that is not occupying, I don't know what is.

Oakman wrote:

More than what? More than Arafat who said the the Palestinians would drown Israel in Palestinian blood?

Unfortunately, yes. Israel, by doing what its doing the way its doing it, it is certainly not garnering any advocates. Its making things much, much worse for the future.

Oakman wrote:

code for "push them into the sea." Until and unless these people recognize that Israel does exist and grant that it has the right to exist in the future, these religious leaders are praying while their hands are dipped in blood.

Zionism ( the UN equates it with racism) is the point of the argument, how is this related to what you're saying? Zionism is an ideology and a movement, though related to Judaism its not one and the same. Zionism is creating a major problem for the whole region the way radical-"Islamic" groups are as well. I blame the both of them.

Oakman wrote:

Egypt closed the checkpoints in June, 2007. That's 18 months ago. They have occasionally opened the barriers for short periods of time, but so has Israel. You might want to remember that the lockdown started after Hamas attacked an Israeli checkpoint and killed some of the guards while kidnapping others.

Actually, Egypt closed the borders one way and not the other. I would know this because my father in law is the President of the standing commission of the ICRC and until almost a month back, and he gets reports on the conditions on a daily basis. He's in Egypt now, trying to talk some sense into both sides to ease the humanitarian distress there. He's not politically inclined either way by the way.

Oakman wrote:

No, they are not, although to be totally accurate I should say rockets and mortar shells. Sooner or later you need to stop denying the truth.

And you would know they are not because...? You saying that the Israeli side was being showered with hundreds of rockets on a daily basis is certainly exaggerated. Few nations can handle shelling out that sort of firep

[Oakman]

I understand that you feel badly about the fate of the Palestinians in Gaza. I too am unhappy when I see picture of dead kids. But I must have a longer memory than you. I remember pictures of children's corpses burned literally to a crisp by Palestinian suicide bombers. I remember that Hamas, not Israel started this latest combat. I remember than no Arab nation nor individual spoke up when Hamas announced that they were ending the cease-fire. And, I know what war is like. I know it's not kissy-face and pattie-poo. It's ugly, messy, sickening and cruel. I know that to expect either the Israelis or Hamas to abide by school-yard rules about "fighting fair" is naive, and a little foolish. I know that Hamas will stop when all Israelis are dead or when all members of Hamas are dead. I don't have to like it, but I know better than the think what I like matters in the slightest when it comes to something like this. I really don't have anything more to say at this time. I'm pretty sure you aren't really listening anyway.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

Oakman wrote:

I really don't have anything more to say at this time.

I'm out of words too. Its very frustrating from where I am. Its all wrong, whether its Hamas or IDF or Palestinian or Israeli, its just wrong to do that, I don't know how the hell these people can feel at peace.

Oakman wrote:

I'm pretty sure you aren't really listening anyway.

You're wrong Jon, I've got my ears wide open. I have to admit though, sometimes, that's exactly how I feel you're being when we're discussing these things. Here's to peace and the dead kids on every side :rose:

Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful

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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.

I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer