John Ray: Dickens

Ilion

John Ray (the Australian conservative 'atheist' of the 'Dissecting Leftism' blog): Dickens[^]

Although we never normally think of him that way, Dickens may be the second most influential Leftist after Marx. His storytelling ability enthralls us to this day and is for almost all of us the only picture we have of the 19th century -- and a dismal picture it is. Dickens portrayed the worst of his times, not the average or the typical but we tend to accept his verbal pictures as typical. And the the situations that Dickens described were so bad that the word "Dickensian" has come to mean oppressive, uncaring and inhuman. His novels were, however, political propaganda. Surprisingly, England in the Victorian era had a social welfare system that was both fairly comprehensive and independent of the government. ...

Christian Graus

Ilíon wrote:

both fairly comprehensive and independent of the government.

Run by who ? The church ?

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Oakman

Amazing, isn't it. Dickens became the most popular novelist of his time. His serialized stories sold thousand of newspapers. His own youth reflected that of many of his characters with his schooling interupted by the need to work in a factory while his father was in debtors' prison. (John Dickens was finally released when he inherited money from his mother who died while he was in prison.) and all this time he was fooling the public by describing an England that didn't exist. Luckily everyone in Britain was too dumb to notice. Dickens describes the debtors' prison in Little Dorrit with great loathing. Obviously he didn't know half as much about it as a semi-literate Australian who lived 150 years later. Or a prissy little twit from Indiana living in the same period. Lord Ashley, in 1848, referred to the more than thirty thousand children living on the streets as, "naked, filthy, roaming, lawless, and deserted children." Dickens wrote about them in Oliver Twist, but obviously they were fictional creatures. All 30,000. Cholera broke out in London in 1848 because the water supply had become contaminated with animal and human waste. Dickens wrote (in Oliver Twist), "It was market-morning. The ground was covered, nearly ankle-deep, with filth and mire; a thick steam, perpetually rising from the reeking bodies of the cattle, and mingling with the fog, which seemed to rest upon the chimney-tops, hung heavily above." But we are told by Troy that this was just political propaganda. The "New Poor Law," enacted in 1834, created workhouses where entire families were consigned into what was, essentially, a prison. Henry Mayhew wrote "London Labour and the London Poor" in 1851 - it happens to be available[^] on-line. Much of it seems Dickensenian so he, too must have been making it all up as a sort of John the Baptist for Karl Marx. Way to go Troy. You have revealed an amazing and abysmal ignorance.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Ilion

Christian Graus wrote:

Run by who ? The church ?

Didn't bother reading, did you?

Ilion

You're such a fool, DryRot.

Oakman

Ilíon wrote:

You're such a fool, DryRot

1-vote me and retreat to your pathetic childish insults, huh? I guess you're admitting you didn't know shit about Dickens, right Troy?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Lost User

Ilíon wrote:

His novels were, however, political propaganda. Surprisingly, England in the Victorian era had a social welfare system that was both fairly comprehensive and independent of the government.

Taken from Life in Victorian Britain: Bleak times?[^] The 1861 census was published online and that means checking geneology can be done on the internet... Look behind any one of millions of names which make an appearance in the 1851 census and lives are uncovered that are every bit as grim as those depicted by Dickens, only minus the vicious satire and comic timing of Bleak House. No individual is more representative than Elizabeth Bentley, who makes her appearance in the "Yorkshire" category of the category, as a " mill worker, born 1806, age 23". There is an immediate touch of Dickens about the particulars of her working life, gleaned from a public inquiry into factory conditions from the time. She works for the Dickensian-sounding Mr Busk, who ran a flax mill in Leeds. Work started there for her there at the age of six and she earned a pittance as a "doffer" (removing full spindles of thread or bolts of cloth from the spinning or weaving machinery) . She was allowed 40 minutes at noon for mealtimes but had no time for breakfast or drinks. Her home was two miles from the mill - naturally, she had to walk - and if she arrived late in the morning, she would be "quartered". In other words if she was quarter of an hour late, she would lose half an hour's pay. She was never beaten for being late but regularly saw boys beaten for being late. And Back-breaking work, 17-hour days, minimal pay: a glimpse inside the factories of Victorian Britain[^] where Charles Dickens was not wrong. The exploitation of children in Victorian factories was truly shocking – yet, curiously, neither the children themselv

Oakman

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

BUT, you have the ability to learn.

You have evidence of this???

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Shepman

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

Recipe for Oatmeal Gruel

Please, sir, may I have some more?

Lost User

Well, he has some articles here on CP so I suppose those little grey cells of his perhaps can and do work from time to time. Unless you know otherwise...

Christian Graus

See, I still think it's bloody rude of you to provide links to things you refuse to discuss. I am more interested in a discussion, and knowing what your point is, than in just reading something, especially when I am busy. When I want to read, I buy a book.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Lost User

Is that ingratitude I hear? asks the board of well-fed gentlemen. :(

Christian Graus

Interesting, your reply was well thought out and full of factual points. His, not so much.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Ilion

Christian Graus wrote:

See, I still think it's bloody rude of you to provide links to things you refuse to discuss.

And I think it's bloody rude of you to be such a damned liar; you don't want to discuss anything.

Oakman

Christian Graus wrote:

His, not so much.

That would qualify as an understatement so understated it was positively British.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Oakman

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

Unless you know otherwise...

Nope. You are right. His stuff is good.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Lost User

This web site will provide some answers http://www.workhouses.org.uk/[^] and from Channel 4 tv (UK) this Time Traveller's Guide to Victorian Britain[^]

Lost User

Yes, but it is a shame he doesn't show the same professionalism here at the Soapbox.

Stan Shannon

Thanks for the link. Thats interesting information. Dickens, as with most modern leftists, is good at identifying and defining a problem, but really sucks at attributing it to the real cause and thus empowring himself to provide a solution to what ever cause he wishes to attribute it to - greedy rich people obviously, which we clearly need to empower the government to do something about immediately! The simple facts are that, yes, the infrastructure of a rapidly growing society emerging from a more primitive social state and into a modern metropolitan society needed attention from the government. But, otherwise, private British society had the situation well in hand.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Lost User

I notice Ilion and Stan never post on any other message boards. Just a thought.

Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.