Israel signs unilateral ceasefire...

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

Stan Shannon wrote:

The fact that such a law is even allowed to exist , or that such a barbaric act is considered a 'law' of any kind in the first place is all I need to know to make me an expert on Islamic civilization.

Here, wrap your brain around this: Adultery in the bible[^] [quote from the link] The seriousness of the sin of adultery can be seen in several ways. Under the law of Moses the penalty was death by stoning. You could argue that this law would only pertain to Judaism since it was told to Moses, but that would automatically render the other 9 commandments useless to Christianity.

Stan Shannon wrote:

all I need to know to make me an expert on Islamic civilization.

I personally don't think you'd know civilization if it bit you on the nose.

Stan Shannon wrote:

I'm actually pretty sure, however, that it has something to do with doing the dinky winky with your stinky. Which would mean of course that your going to need a lot of rocks in most parts of the modern world.

Technically true. It would apply to married men or women. It is partially enacted in Saudi Arabia, Iran and by the Taliban. If you were to follow Islamic law to the letter, you have no conceivable idea of how hard it is to prove adultery. Yes it needs 4 witnesses, but there are a few dozen rules as to whom can be considered a witness and in fact they had to be present when the act was happening.

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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation

[Stan Shannon]

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

If you were to follow Islamic law to the letter, you have no conceivable idea of how hard it is to prove adultery. Yes it needs 4 witnesses, but there are a few dozen rules as to whom can be considered a witness and in fact they had to be present when the act was happening.

Mustafa, the fact that you can even seriously opine on such concepts is absolutely horrifying. Can similar notions be found in the Old testament? Of course. It was written in the freaking bronze age - you know, right after people had stopped banging rocks together for tools. The useful thing about christianity is, first, it promotes the notion, as a central tenet, of turning the other cheek, and letting those who are without sin cast the first stone. You know, more iron age, pre dark ages, notions of tolerance and civility. There is not 'four witnesses' kinds of legal concepts to be found in it anywhere. It isn't a code of laws, its a set of moral principles. Further, Christ articulated the first notion of separation of church and state - give unto caesar that which is caesar's and unto God that which is God's. What that means is that, as a Christian, it is perfectly acceptable that I allow my self to be ruled by laws that were not written in the fucking bronze age.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Oakman]

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

That simply says that Israel won't alter any of its policies on Gaza other than not killing civilians out right.

I would have thought you'd be in favor of that.

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

I think this is just a lull before the slaughter is continued.

You may be right. It depends on what Hamas does. (This is important for you to understand) A ceasefire is not a peace treaty. It is an agreement to stop active hostilities so that negotiations for a treaty can be conducted without further provocations. A unilateral cease-fire, as this one is, is an amazing leap of faith on the part of Israel. Israel has signaled its willingness to negotiate about the blockade, removal of the troops, etc. Whether these things happen or not will depend on how much pressure is put on Hamas by the citizens of Gaza, the Egyptians, Hamas's paymasters in Iran, and others - including, to some small extent, you. As long as you insist on painting Israel as the big bad wolf coming after the three pitiful little pigs rather than recognizing that they are making an honest effort to create a peaceful situation, you are part of the problem, my friend.

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

Some objectives they've accomplished.

They have given Hamas strong reasons to consider signing a peace treaty and they have provided a lull in the combat in which negotiations can take place. What more could they have wanted? Certainly they don't want to occupy Gaza, they'd already done that and voluntarily gave it up.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

Stan Shannon wrote:

Mustafa, the fact that you can even seriously opine on such concepts is absolutely horrifying.

Just because I'm knowledgeable regarding Islam does not entail that I follow it to the letter. Keep in mind, Islam is only 600 years younger than Christianity, the development that had occurred between both wasn't too much. I'll provide an opinion on anything that I'm knowledgeable about or can find out about, that's what you do as well; you state that it is horrifying and that in itself is an opinion unless you're implying that only you can opine on anything? That smacks very much of bigotry.

Stan Shannon wrote:

The useful thing about christianity is, first, it promotes the notion, as a central tenet, of turning the other cheek, and letting those who are without sin cast the first stone.

One thing that is completely misunderstood about Islam is that it does not promote pre-emptive action nor radical reaction. It actually promotes the same tenet of Christianity and it also defines exactly how one should react to what. No where do its teachings inform you to turn into a red-eyed berserker shrieking "jihad" against everything in sight. A main point of Islam is moderation, but sadly, many of the radicals are trying to show the world otherwise.

Stan Shannon wrote:

It isn't a code of laws, its a set of moral principles

Islam is both. Mohammed did say [my translation] "I only came to finalize the best/kindest of morals" and another "[Abrahamic] religion is morality" are amongst many other things that are statutes of Islam.

Stan Shannon wrote:

What that means is that, as a Christian, it is perfectly acceptable that I allow my self to be ruled by laws that were not written in the f***ing bronze age.

Islamic laws are only subject in an Islamic state, otherwise, muslims are required to follow the laws of the land they are in.

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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation <

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

Oakman wrote:

I would have thought you'd be in favor of that.

Yes and no. I'm certainly in favor of stopping any military action that harms or has the high probability of harming civilians; for that, I am grateful that they stopped what they're doing. But there is still the blockade, the civilians dead, dying and injured that they have to account for, and before you say it, its not just Israel I hold to account for them, but Hamas as well.

Oakman wrote:

You may be right. It depends on what Hamas does.

I hope that I'm wrong and Hamas does the right thing and shuts the hell up and moderates itself, willing to lose what it considers clout for the sake of the civilians on both sides of the border.

Oakman wrote:

A ceasefire is not a peace treaty. It is an agreement to stop active hostilities so that negotiations for a treaty can be conducted without further provocations.

Please, who do you think I am? I know very well what a ceasefire is and I know what peace treaty is. I just hope both sides do the right thing. Yes both sides, you don't want Hamas thinking its tougher than it is and you don't want hardliners on the Israeli side thinking that there's still more to do.

Oakman wrote:

Israel has signaled its willingness to negotiate about the blockade, removal of the troops, etc. Whether these things happen or not will depend on how much pressure is put on Hamas by the citizens of Gaza, the Egyptians, Hamas's paymasters in Iran, and others - including, to some small extent, you.

Quite true. You don't worry about my part, I'll scream from the rooftops if need be. I've already donated to the Red Cross/Red Crescent (through my father in law) near $1500 in food, blankets, soap and basic medical needs (bandages, anti-biotics, etc).

Oakman wrote:

As long as you insist on painting Israel as the big bad wolf coming after the three pitiful little pigs rather than recognizing that they are making an honest effort to create a peaceful situation, you are part of the problem, my friend.

It is only now that they have unclenched their fist. I'm saddened that you think that, all the time I was shrieking for moderation and for the civilians.

Oakman wrote:

They have given Hamas st

[Lost User]

Ignore Stan, I pity anyone so blinded by self hate that it spills over onto others.

Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.

[Gary Kirkham]

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

I wonder what his term as the Mayor of Chicago was like...

Cincinnati

Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Me blog, You read

[Stan Shannon]

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

Islam is both. Mohammed did say [my translation] "I only came to finalize the best/kindest of morals" and another "[Abrahamic] religion is morality" are amongst many other things that are statutes of Islam.

The part that is both so sad and so funny at the same time, it that these are precisely the points I try to make other westerners understand about Islam and I am repeatedly treated like some kind of radical hate monger. Yet, you yourself, as the quintessential 'moderate' muslim, make them openly with no embarrasment of any kind. Those concepts represent the complete opposite of my civilization's values. Islam is a religion, but is also a set of political principles, a formulation of how to govern a society. Christianity was never that. There were those who tried to turn it into that, but ultimately that effort failed, because Christianity is not of this world, but of the next.

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

slamic laws are only subject in an Islamic state, otherwise, muslims are required to follow the laws of the land they are in.

But what about unleashing Muslims freely into a democratic society, where the laws are ultimatly up to the people themesleves to decide? How do those two concepts work togehter? A sufficiently large population of muslims in any democratic society could easily turn that society into an Islamic state without actually violating the 'laws of the land'. Sorry, but your civilization is simply too contradictory and alien to western values and principles to be tolerated here. It brings with it its own political point of view which is simply reprehensible to everything my people have fought so long and so hard to protect me from.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Lost User]

Mustafa is being polite about him X|

Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

Sometimes, its hard. He sometimes comes with the most left-field remarks and observations that I can't help but try and set him right. Unfortunately, he's proven to be quite stubborn and set in his ways for what seems to be an intelligent man.

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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation

[Oakman]

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

I am grateful that they stopped what they're doing.

Then why didn't you say that? You dismissed a ceasefire as if it meant nothing. Instead it means, among other things, that aid agencies, including your father-in-law's, can begin delivering needed supplies to the people of Gaza who you say are your primary concern.

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

I know very well what a ceasefire is and I know what peace treaty is.

I have assumed in the past that you did understand and realised that Israel had every right to respond when Hamas said that it was abrogating the previous cease-fire. But you kept condemning Israel for not unilaterally giving up everything it achieved by military action as part of the cease fire. Besides, other people people read what we write. (Stan's going to tell us to get a room, sometime soon :| )

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

Yes both sides, you don't want Hamas thinking its tougher than it is and you don't want hardliners on the Israeli side thinking that there's still more to do.

Hamas appears to have decided it isn't any tougher than it is. (Does that sentence make sense?) And it would appear to me that Israel believes it can acomplish what is left to do at peace talks. Now it is up to Egypt (remember when you told me Israel would never accept Egypt as a peace-maker?) to shepherd the talks through the days to come.

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

It is only now that they have unclenched their fist.

Not true. The fist as you call it was not clenched on December 19th. Hamas struck first. How many times would you let me hit you before you clenched your fist? Remember that you are younger than I am and probably in better shape, so it won't be a fair fight if you respond to me trying to punch your lights out.

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

Over a thousand of them.

According to everything you tell us, Hamas is supremely uninterested in the death of non-Hamas members (except, presumably, as propaganda). Did they suddenly develop empathy? Are they moving their launchers away from civilian targets?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

I seem to be making mistakes left right and center today. My bad, I blame it on my finals (tomorrow, the day after and Thursday)

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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation

[soap brain]

Stan Shannon wrote:

What that means is that, as a Christian, it is perfectly acceptable that I allow my self to be ruled by laws that were not written in the f***ing bronze age.

So much for secular humanism, huh.

[Oakman]

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

The seriousness of the sin of adultery can be seen in several ways. Under the law of Moses the penalty was death by stoning.

But that commandment is not the law in any non-Muslim state these days, is it? Whereas there are a number of Shari'a courts that have condemned women to death (and even some men, I believe) for adultery - and had women whipped half to death for being raped.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Stan Shannon]

Ravel H. Joyce wrote:

So much for secular humanism, huh.

Well, that would indeed represent going all the way back to the stone age.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Vikram A Punathambekar]

I said I knew NOTHING about Springer. I was referring to Dr. Evil's antics being hilarious. "Come here, you Bleep Bleep Bleep. I'll Bleep give you Bleep Bleep"

Cheers, Vıkram.

---

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it.

[Vikram A Punathambekar]

Please see my reply to Elaine below. Good luck with your exams. What are you doing on CP man?

Cheers, Vıkram.

---

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it.

[Stan Shannon]

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

He sometimes comes with the most left-field remarks and observations that I can't help but try and set him right. Unfortunately, he's proven to be quite stubborn and set in his ways for what seems to be an intelligent man.

The curious thing is how any argument which does not, in some way, pay homage to modern liberal or libertarian moral principles is always demonized as being beyond the bounds of proper civil society. It is really little different than being considered a heretic by more conventionally religious people. The truth is that I am as liberal in the classic sense of that word as anyone who hangs out here. I simply reject one tenet - that being liberal requires me to be infinitely tolerant, or at least tolerant of those things people like trollierthanthou tell me I am suposed to be tolerant of.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[soap brain]

Stan Shannon wrote:

Well, that would indeed represent going all the way back to the stone age.

You seriously believe that stone-age folk upheld the tenets of secular humanism? :wtf:

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

Stan Shannon wrote:

I try to make other westerners understand about Islam

:laugh::laugh::laugh: Are you serious?!!! Your acquaintance with Islam is not even surface level at best! Learn something about it and then try to preach what your opinions are about it.

Stan Shannon wrote:

I am repeatedly treated like some kind of radical hate monger. Yet, you yourself

Because you are Stan, be a man and face reality and look in the mirror. You do are a hate monger often enough. You make crass remarks like the one about stoning and then you have the audacity to say that you are knowledgeable and that you are trying to teach the truth about Islam. Your hypocrisy is rampant Stan.

Stan Shannon wrote:

Islam is a religion, but is also a set of political principles, a formulation of how to govern a society

It is, I'm not denying that, but those laws are not enforced properly. Islam as a religion is completely innocent of the hateful actions being committed in its name. You can say the exact same thing about Christianity. Christianity came with its own laws as well. You're just saying that you choose to follow or not follow some of the rules laid down in the Old Testament, thus rendering you a non-practicing christian. Do not adopt a holier than thou attitude, the halo so doesn't suit you.

Stan Shannon wrote:

But what about unleashing Muslims freely into a democratic society, where the laws are ultimatly up to the people themesleves to decide?

Nothing. The Qur'an clearly states [my translation] "You have your religion and I have mine." So long as a Muslim doesn't brake any of the five pillars of faith, he is required to follow the rule of law of the land he is in.

Stan Shannon wrote:

A sufficiently large population of muslims in any democratic society could easily turn that society into an Islamic state without actually violating the 'laws of the land'.

Jordan, Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Tunis, Morocco, Libya are off the top of my head that are countries with an overwhelming Muslim majority where Shari'a is not the law of the land. Jordan is secular even and the Muslim population constitutes of about 90-95% Just because a country has a Muslim majority it does not mean that it is an Islamic state.