Israel signs unilateral ceasefire...

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

I know, I was just giving you an idea about the twit. Cheers mate. I can't help but be here because I'm addicted. Chris, if I fail tomorrow, its on your head :laugh: Also, I can't help but enjoy crossing swords with Oakman and trying to actually teach Stan something about the world outside his closed circle. So far, I don't think I've accomplished much which is sad.

Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful

---

Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation

[Stan Shannon]

Ravel H. Joyce wrote:

You seriously believe that stone-age folk upheld the tenets of secular humanism?

No, I think you would have to go all the way back to the stone age to find a set of moral principles as inherently lacking in civil standards as those of secular humanism.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

There are only three Muslim states and none of them follow the Shari'a law to the letter. The closest is Iran and they've perverted it according to the overwhelming majority of contemporary scholars. Saudi Arabia enforces a very selfish form of the law where the royal family is waaaay above the law and saudi national get dealt a soft version of it whilst the rest are trod on like dirt unless you live in an Aramco compound, then you can do anything you want short of murder. That particular law and the law for whipping (which by the way has a specific way) is partially enforced in the GCC and some occasional occurrences outside.

Oakman wrote:

women whipped half to death for being raped.

See, this is a prime example of perversion of the laws. According to Shari'a law, a rapist is killed because of the harm he has caused the woman and the citizens of the town. All Shari'a laws are about protecting her not about prosecuting her. I have no idea what the hell was going through the mind of the judge when made that insane decree. It really has no basis whatsoever in Islam.

Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful

---

Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

Stan Shannon wrote:

The curious thing is how any argument which does not, in some way, pay homage to modern liberal or libertarian moral principles is always demonized as being beyond the bounds of proper civil society. It is really little different than being considered a heretic by more conventionally religious people.

Funny, you seem to judge me and everyone you deem as a non-Christian or non-Jeffersonian in their views by that. I guess that makes us heretics.

Stan Shannon wrote:

The truth is that I am as liberal in the classic sense of that word as anyone who hangs out here.

You have yet to offer proof of that.

Stan Shannon wrote:

I simply reject one tenet - that being liberal requires me to be infinitely tolerant, or at least tolerant of those things people like trollierthanthou tell me I am suposed to be tolerant of.

What you have historically shown is a tendency to be completely intolerant of anything that does not agree with your hard set ideology. From religion to politics to economics to your perverted sense of civilization. You remind me of this: (not that I'm insinuating you are an ass, just as stubborn as one)[^]

Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful

---

Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation

[soap brain]

Stan Shannon wrote:

No, I think you would have to go all the way back to the stone age to find a set of moral principles as inherently lacking in civil standards as those of secular humanism.

[citation needed]

[Oakman]

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

The closest is Iran and they've perverted it according to the overwhelming majority of contemporary scholars.

Maybe so, but obviously there are a number of Muslim clerics who think everything is hunkey-dorey. Problem is, I talk about what is and you talk about what should be. By the way, I remind you that you ignored my first question: Is there some place you know of, outside of Muslim countries where the penalty for adultery is death? Is the only thing you can find, a 3,450 year old document?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Oakman]

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

insinuating you are an ass, just as stubborn as one

Next he'll be telling us that Charles Dickens was a speech writer for Joe Stalin.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Oakman]

Ravel H. Joyce wrote:

[citation needed]

ROFL

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[soap brain]

Call me crazy, but didn't he identify himself as a secular humanist? :confused:

[Vikram A Punathambekar]

I could easily be wrong, but I read in Reader's Digest that marriages between Christians and Muslims are forbidden by law in Jordan. Also, Jordan has Sharia courts, so I don't understand how you can call it a secular country. You can add Indonesia to your list of Muslim-majority non-Sharia countries.

Cheers, Vıkram.

---

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it.

[Vikram A Punathambekar]

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

There are only three Muslim states

What yardstick do you use to define what is a Muslim state and what isn't? I'd say if the Govt and religion intersect, you have a non-secular state. Based on that, I can count the following as Muslim states off the top of my head: Saudi Arabia Pakistan The UAE Afghanistan Yemen Kuwait Malaysia Iran Iraq Syria

Cheers, Vıkram.

---

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it.

[Gary Kirkham]

Maybe he is going back farther and referring to the Mughal, Safavid, and Ottoman Empires. I guess all of the states today flow from them.

Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Me blog, You read

[Sahir Shah]

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

you have no conceivable idea of how hard it is to prove adultery. Yes it needs 4 witnesses, but there are a few dozen rules as to whom can be considered a witness and in fact they had to be present when the act was happening.

so, do the 4 witnesses get charged with voyeurism ?

[Oakman]

Sahir Shah wrote:

so, do the 4 witnesses get charged with voyeurism ?

Not unless there are 4 witnesses to the voyeurism. By the way, if I understand correctly, these have to be male witnesses. A woman only counts as half-a-witness.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

I'm studying but I nipped in really quick between chapters. If I'm not mistaken, anywhere there exists a sizeable muslim community you will find a Shari'a court. This is because many of the laws that exist in Islam require a study in them because of their complexity and interpretation from the codices (Qur'an, Sunnah and Hadith). This includes but is not limited to, marriage, divorce, feud settlement, and inheritance) The existence of such courts does not mean that the court system is Islamic (i.e. operates on Shari'a law and only that). Islamic states are those states that enforce Shari'a law and only Shari'a law, whether its for politics or for daily court sagas. As such, some countries that label themselves as Islamic republics are not actually Islamic states. A prime example is Bahrain (though the current King is trying to steer it towards that) another is Pakistan. Pakistan is officially called the Islamic Republic of Pakistan but its court system and political system (though based on Islamic law) is not Islamic. [ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Republic[^]] The closest that comes to an Islamic State is Iran and even that is flawed. With regards to a marriage between Christians and Muslims, that is not correct. There are many examples, my mother is one, my mother in law is another, my friend (an Italian from Genoa) is married to a Jordanian girl and there are many many more. The Prophet Mohammed was married to a Jew. The general trend (though not a requirement except possibly in some of the more "strict" countries like KSA) is that the non-Muslim spouse adopts Islam as a religion. However, according to Shari'a, it states clearly [my translation] "do not give your daughters unto mushrikeen until they embrace Islam" Mushrikeen was used to describe the pagans who lived about Mecca because they gave a Godly status to their idols, the definition then changed to mean other than followers of Abrahamic religions. The debate has been there a long time with some saying its OK for a man to marry a non-Muslim but its not for a woman unless the man embraces Islam and others are arguing that the words are clear that so long as he is a believer (a follower of the Abrahamic religions) its legal.

Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful

---

[](</x-turndown)

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

Oakman wrote:

Maybe so, but obviously there are a number of Muslim clerics who think everything is hunkey-dorey. Problem is, I talk about what is and you talk about what should be.

True on both accounts. My primary concern is that there is no mix-up between what Islam is and what is being practiced. I don't deny anything that's being practiced, but dependent on the case, I'll agree whether it is in accordance with Islamic law or not. That's all.

Oakman wrote:

By the way, I remind you that you ignored my first question: Is there some place you know of, outside of Muslim countries where the penalty for adultery is death? Is the only thing you can find, a 3,450 year old document?

Didn't mean to ignore it, just left the SB because I had to study, I sent you an email before I saw this post, sorry. From what I know, I believe that that Old Testament law is not practiced anywhere. But to be fair, its not practiced in all Muslim countries (Muslim countries meaning, nations with a Muslim majority). Only a few of them and they are collectively labeled as a perversion of the laws (not by me, but by dozens of Ulema and high ranking clerics, I just happen to agree with them based on my academic understanding of Islam).

Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful

---

Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

Only if they were intruding on a married couple (which would automatically negate the adultery part) otherwise, if they were less than four (with full accordance to the laws requiring them to be witnesses of good standing) they are required by religion to hold their peace and not mention it to anyone at all.

Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful

---

Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

Not exactly. A woman can be a full witness so long as it is not something that would directly affect her, for example, she didn't catch the man she wanted to marry in bed with another woman or if she has another woman (with the situation described above) to back her up. The reasoning being that a woman if more prone to emotion that a man. In either case, there are as many stringent rules to accept a witness (male or female) There are other situations a woman would be considered as half a witness (for the same rationale) but if memory serves, there is no situation where less than 2 witnesses (again, with the strict requirements demanded of a witness) exist. Its complicated I'll admit.

Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful

---

Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

Well, there were more states than that, but if a correct (meaning that Islamic law was followed to the letter and properly with no excess or favor) Islamic Caliphate is to be found, we would have to consider the Caliphates from the time of the Prophet to the end of the Rashidun Caliphate[^] If you're interested, you might want to read about Omar ibn Al-Khattab[^] (my personal favorite persona from the era, a real tough guy as lore describes him) He was nicknamed "Al-Farouq" (the one that can tell right from wrong) because he was so just.

Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful

---

Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation

[Oakman]

Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:

between what Islam is and what is being practiced

Well, I would suggest that Islam and Christianity both are known for producing great warriors who fight in the name of their religion without worrying too much about whether they are practicing Peace on Earth, or wishing Peace Be Unto anyone. Similarly, these two great descendants of classical Judaism are also well known for having kings and presidents who drape themselves in the mantle of the country's religion while ruthlessly stamping out any and all opposition to their rule in the name of their version of the Creator. It should not surprise anyone who offers up a view of either religion that insists on a kinder, gentler God than the one who hates of all of His handiwork except that which follows the religious, political, and economic philosophies of the secular powers-that-be, that quite a few folks go as far as to question his/her grasp of reality. So we may be talking about a kind of Islam never practiced on a very wide scale, just as we could talk about a kind of Christianity never practiced very often or for very long. I am perfectly willing to accept that in the best of all possible Islamic worlds, people could live in harmony, just as I accept that Jews both in Israel and throughout the world are capable of learning to live at peace with those whom they now have good reason to mistrust, and accept that all Christians may some day turn away from the kind of heretical hatred preached by Il-who-must-not-be-named and his kind. But I ain't gonna hold my breath.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface