A Sad Day For Free Speech In Italy
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digital man wrote:
As opposed to brainwashing you that there is?
Now you get it. Any form of presentation of views, for or against any viewpoint, can be called brainwashing, if you want to.
digital man wrote:
No, answers that are not believable which is somewhat different.
But wait, doesn't your inability to believe something imply free will, which means that the presentation of this information doesn't 'brainwash' at all, but just present a point of view that people are capable of rejecting ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
Christian Graus wrote:
But wait, doesn't your inability to believe something imply free will, which means that the presentation of this information doesn't 'brainwash' at all, but just present a point of view that people are capable of rejecting ?
To be capable of rejecting or accepting any religion one must be mature and well-informed enough to make that decision, therefore children should be protected from any form of contact with any religion until they are at least 18, then educated about many different religions and atheism and only then make their own choice. :)
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It's just that I always found it a little suspicious that the Bible doesn't contain any information that couldn't possibly have been known in those days without divine inspiration. When it could've proven itself beyond any doubt to be the word of God with just one physics equation, one chemical formula, it instead talks about unicorns and dragons and God killing people.
Well, that's fine. As I said below, your ability to make this error of judgement, shows that you have free will, and that people telling you about God, or the Bible, has not proven to be an effective means of 'brainwashing' you. Which makes the whole thing of putting signs on buses almost as idiotic as the fact that some organised churches were stupid enough to fall for it.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
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Christian Graus wrote:
But wait, doesn't your inability to believe something imply free will, which means that the presentation of this information doesn't 'brainwash' at all, but just present a point of view that people are capable of rejecting ?
To be capable of rejecting or accepting any religion one must be mature and well-informed enough to make that decision, therefore children should be protected from any form of contact with any religion until they are at least 18, then educated about many different religions and atheism and only then make their own choice. :)
Well, this is plainly not possible. Just as you raise your kids to know that you don't believe in God ( which is not the same as them starting with a blank slate ), I can't help but tell my kids that I do.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
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Christian Graus wrote:
No-one is more irrational than a fervent athiest, in my experience
And it is getting worse all the time. I grew up argueing against religion, but have never met a Christian who gets as outraged as an athiest does when their assumptions are challanged.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
I find that even magazines like Scientific American, are a call to war. I saw one issue while I was here with an article 'Creationists - their latest tricks'. I hardly read an article on *anything* without a few snide comments against people who believe in God, or who believe in creationism in any form. It's frankly childish and only makes them look bad.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
It's just that for a book that 'has all the answers', it's fairly light in the useful-information-department.
With all due respect, did you ever stop to think that, at your age, you aren't qualified to decide what is useful information and what isn't? Right now you ought to be worrying less about what you filter out and more on what you can absorb. For what it's worth, I'd suggest that you might want to do a fairly detailed research on the writing and collation of both the Old and New Testaments as well as the Apocrypha. Then move on to study the history of the Semitic peoples we now call Jews. Then spend some time studying the difference between Pauline and Petrine Christianity. Who knows, you might learn something "worthwhile."
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
With all due respect,
See, this just confuses me. Since when...?
Oakman wrote:
did you ever stop to think that, at your age, you aren't qualified to decide what is useful information and what isn't? Right now you ought to be worrying less about what you filter out and more on what you can absorb.
Hey, I try and learn as much as I can about everything I can, excluding world geography and most history.
Oakman wrote:
For what it's worth, I'd suggest that you might want to do a fairly detailed research on the writing and collation of both the Old and New Testaments as well as the Apocrypha. Then move on to study the history of the Semitic peoples we now call Jews. Then spend some time studying the difference between Pauline and Petrine Christianity. Who knows, you might learn something "worthwhile."
*faints* That is a lot. I'll put it on my 'to-do' list.
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Oakman wrote:
Who knows, you might learn something "worthwhile."
That far too much time and energy was spent on whipping the sheeple in to neat lines, when that same time and energy could've been spent for studying the universe as it is?
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
spent for studying the universe as it is?
Excpet that what we have learned about what the 'universe is' is that we are a bunch of unnecessarily intelligent, ultra-violent, apes on a rock that there is no way to get off of and go anywhere to do anything interesting, but we have to set here for the next few billion years trying to get along with all the other asshole primates, waiting for the sun to explode. Shit, yeah, how the hell could we have ever gotten along without all that information? I'm sure glad someone told me about it. Thanks for sharing....
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
Leviticus and explained how General and Special Relativity works.
Yes, but then he would have had to give humanity algebra and calculus, not to mention an introductory course in Newtonian physics, which, of course, would not have been Newtonian since the man had not been born yet, as well as Maxwell's equations. And the obvious discourse on the laws of motion. And all this to some guy who's most advanced intellectual ambition was counting his goats, who would have been all like "shit, this religion crap is freaking hard, dude". Somehow I think the condensed version was more useful.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Yes, but then he would have had to give humanity algebra and calculus, not to mention an introductory course in Newtonian physics, which, of course, would not have been Newtonian since the man had not been born yet, as well as Maxwell's equations. And the obvious discourse on the laws of motion. And all this to some guy who's most advanced intellectual ambition was counting his goats, who would have been all like "sh*t, this religion crap is freaking hard, dude". Somehow I think the condensed version was more useful.
He doesn't have to teach it to them. He just has to get them to write it down so that several thousand years later we find out that the Schrödinger equation was in the Bible all along. I mean, how unbelievable would that have been! :omg:
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
I spend too much time isolated in my bedroom for my parents to get sick of me.
We all did. And our poor mothers had to do our laundry.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Funny! gets my 5!
------------------------------------ "The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion" Arthur C Clarke
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Well, this is plainly not possible. Just as you raise your kids to know that you don't believe in God ( which is not the same as them starting with a blank slate ), I can't help but tell my kids that I do.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, this is plainly not possible.
Hence my smiley. :)
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
spent for studying the universe as it is?
Excpet that what we have learned about what the 'universe is' is that we are a bunch of unnecessarily intelligent, ultra-violent, apes on a rock that there is no way to get off of and go anywhere to do anything interesting, but we have to set here for the next few billion years trying to get along with all the other asshole primates, waiting for the sun to explode. Shit, yeah, how the hell could we have ever gotten along without all that information? I'm sure glad someone told me about it. Thanks for sharing....
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Religion and mythology once had a role to play. That role became obsolete a long time ago.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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I find that even magazines like Scientific American, are a call to war. I saw one issue while I was here with an article 'Creationists - their latest tricks'. I hardly read an article on *anything* without a few snide comments against people who believe in God, or who believe in creationism in any form. It's frankly childish and only makes them look bad.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
Christian Graus wrote:
find that even magazines like Scientific American, are a call to war. I saw one issue while I was here with an article 'Creationists - their latest tricks'. I hardly read an article on *anything* without a few snide comments against people who believe in God, or who believe in creationism in any form. It's frankly childish and only makes them look bad.
Precisely. Atheism has become as institutionalized as Christianity once was in our society. It has simply replaced the former as the philosophical prerequisite for academic acceptance. Which is sad because it demonstrates that as a society we have really learned nothing, and have not progressed at all. It is just one group trying to possess intellectual hegemony rather than another.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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I think it's proof of an attempt to create a 'Christian country', like what Stan wants the US to be. I disagree with any attempt to stop such a sign, I could care less what they write on the side of a bus, it doesn't make them right ( they are wrong ). But, I am all for free speech, and for people to be able to voice their views. I'd welcome the chance to discuss it with people. Catholics, of course, are not Christians, and their religion is based on layers of tradition that move from the bible and often have no basis in fact.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
Christian Graus wrote:
their religion is based on layers of tradition that move from the bible and often have no basis in fact
Name a religion based in Fact.
------------------------------------ "The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion" Arthur C Clarke
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Religion and mythology once had a role to play. That role became obsolete a long time ago.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
Religion and mythology once had a role to play. That role became obsolete a long time ago.
I think the more cold and lonely and hopeless science reveals the universe to actually be, the more attractive and important all that religion and mythology will once again become. Of what possible use is knowledge of a universe that is without purpose or meaning? If that is the case, than shit, just make up something that sounds good and go with that.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
I spend too much time isolated in my bedroom for my parents to get sick of me.
We all did. And our poor mothers had to do our laundry.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
It made my mum cry, actually, a little while ago, which was kinda weird.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Yes, but then he would have had to give humanity algebra and calculus, not to mention an introductory course in Newtonian physics, which, of course, would not have been Newtonian since the man had not been born yet, as well as Maxwell's equations. And the obvious discourse on the laws of motion. And all this to some guy who's most advanced intellectual ambition was counting his goats, who would have been all like "sh*t, this religion crap is freaking hard, dude". Somehow I think the condensed version was more useful.
He doesn't have to teach it to them. He just has to get them to write it down so that several thousand years later we find out that the Schrödinger equation was in the Bible all along. I mean, how unbelievable would that have been! :omg:
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
He doesn't have to teach it to them. He just has to get them to write it down so that several thousand years later we find out that the Schrödinger equation was in the Bible all along. I mean, how unbelievable would that have been!
How do you know its not there? Maybe its hidden away in some kind of secret code. Why don't you spend some time checiking that out? On the other hand, how cool would it be if somewhere trillions of decimal places into the value of pi there was a binary message that said: "Hello, I'm God. My name is Bob. Whats Yours?"
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
He doesn't have to teach it to them. He just has to get them to write it down so that several thousand years later we find out that the Schrödinger equation was in the Bible all along. I mean, how unbelievable would that have been!
How do you know its not there? Maybe its hidden away in some kind of secret code. Why don't you spend some time checiking that out? On the other hand, how cool would it be if somewhere trillions of decimal places into the value of pi there was a binary message that said: "Hello, I'm God. My name is Bob. Whats Yours?"
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
How do you know its not there? Maybe its hidden away in some kind of secret code. Why don't you spend some time checiking that out?
Anything as cryptic as what the Bible is can be interpreted however the hell you want, if you use an algorithm convoluted enough.
Stan Shannon wrote:
On the other hand, how cool would it be if somewhere trillions of decimal places into the value of pi there was a binary message that said: "Hello, I'm God. My name is Bob. Whats Yours?"
It wouldn't be cool at all, because it's mathematically certain that it is. Just like every other possible string. I also know that it contains, "Worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the true God".
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Stan Shannon wrote:
How do you know its not there? Maybe its hidden away in some kind of secret code. Why don't you spend some time checiking that out?
Anything as cryptic as what the Bible is can be interpreted however the hell you want, if you use an algorithm convoluted enough.
Stan Shannon wrote:
On the other hand, how cool would it be if somewhere trillions of decimal places into the value of pi there was a binary message that said: "Hello, I'm God. My name is Bob. Whats Yours?"
It wouldn't be cool at all, because it's mathematically certain that it is. Just like every other possible string. I also know that it contains, "Worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the true God".
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
Anything as cryptic as what the Bible is can be interpreted however the hell you want, if you use an algorithm convoluted enough.
Well, there you go then. Maybe God used a convoluted algorithm.
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
It wouldn't be cool at all, because it's mathematically certain that it is. Just like every other possible string. I also know that it contains, "Worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the true God".
OK, well what if it said "I live at coordinates x,y,z"?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
Anything as cryptic as what the Bible is can be interpreted however the hell you want, if you use an algorithm convoluted enough.
Well, there you go then. Maybe God used a convoluted algorithm.
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
It wouldn't be cool at all, because it's mathematically certain that it is. Just like every other possible string. I also know that it contains, "Worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the true God".
OK, well what if it said "I live at coordinates x,y,z"?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Well, there you go then. Maybe God used a convoluted algorithm.
So must the author of 'Pony Pals', because the algorithm worked on that as well. And Vanilla Ice too - his lyrics contain a disturbingly accurate prediction of the September 11 attacks.
Stan Shannon wrote:
OK, well what if it said "I live at coordinates x,y,z"?
It's an infinite string of non-repeating numbers. You can find anything in it.
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Oakman wrote:
With all due respect,
See, this just confuses me. Since when...?
Oakman wrote:
did you ever stop to think that, at your age, you aren't qualified to decide what is useful information and what isn't? Right now you ought to be worrying less about what you filter out and more on what you can absorb.
Hey, I try and learn as much as I can about everything I can, excluding world geography and most history.
Oakman wrote:
For what it's worth, I'd suggest that you might want to do a fairly detailed research on the writing and collation of both the Old and New Testaments as well as the Apocrypha. Then move on to study the history of the Semitic peoples we now call Jews. Then spend some time studying the difference between Pauline and Petrine Christianity. Who knows, you might learn something "worthwhile."
*faints* That is a lot. I'll put it on my 'to-do' list.
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
See, this just confuses me. Since when...?
You need to check out the difference between "all respect" and "all due respect." ;)
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
Hey, I try and learn as much as I can about everything I can, excluding world geography and most history.
Look up what George Santayana said about history and the need to learn from it.
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
That is a lot. I'll put it on my 'to-do' list
Once you've completed that task, check back with me. I could give you a list of "worthwhile" followups that would allow you to speak with some slight authority on the subject of the bible. Then perhaps you could move on to philosophy and theology.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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It made my mum cry, actually, a little while ago, which was kinda weird.