Now that BHO has bollocks'd the swearing in of the most important job in the world...

oilFactotum

BoneSoft wrote:

I don't remember anything in the Constitution agaist torture

Cruel and unusual punishment. Remember now?

BoneSoft wrote:

anything of rights offorded by the Constitution for those who aren't citizens or legal residents.

Oh, there are plenty of rights afforded to non-citizens. Like not being tortured for one. :rolleyes:

BoneSoft wrote:

What else ya got?

That's enough. You asked for unconstitutional acts by Bush and I gave two very serious ones. One, if fact - torture, is also a war crime. And all you can respond with is a retorical 'So what?' :rolleyes:

BoneSoft

oilFactotum wrote:

Cruel and unusual punishment.

Interogation for information isn't punishment. But let's assume it could be considered so, now we only need a consensus on what torture is.

oilFactotum wrote:

Oh, there are plenty of rights afforded to non-citizens.

You are correct, I misspoke.

oilFactotum wrote:

That's enough. You asked for unconstitutional acts by Bush and I gave two very serious ones.

Fair enough. We should kick him out of office. Not to suggest that breaking any Constitutional (or otherwise) laws is excusable, but it would seem to me that seeking and taking office illegally is a much more serious crime against the country than giving some terrorists a little more to drink than they asked for or keeping them up too late.

oilFactotum wrote:

And all you can respond with is a retorical 'So what?'

Where did I say that? Nice theatrics, but I said no such thing.

Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.

John Carson

BoneSoft wrote:

And I've seen a copy of a long form from the same year. However in this case, I'm sure you read "We tried to ask the Hawaii DOH why they only offer the short form, among other questions, but they have not given a response."

1. This is a general rule for everyone, not an Obama-specific rule. 2. The short form contains all that is relevent, including his place of birth. Apparently the Republican Party is in on the conspiracy too, since it has not challenged Obama's credentials. Furthermore, the Governor of Hawaii (with authority over the birth records) is a Republican. You are an idiot.

John Carson

modified on Thursday, January 22, 2009 5:53 AM

oilFactotum

BoneSoft wrote:

Interogation for information isn't punishment

LOL. Quite the funny one. Waterboarding is torture, not interrogation.

BoneSoft wrote:

now we only need a consensus on what torture is.

We already do. US law and internation treaties define it. The US has had war crimes trials and convicted people for torture. It has even tried it's own soldiers for it.

BoneSoft wrote:

seeking and taking office illegally is a much more serious crime

Perhaps it is. But no one has done that.

BoneSoft · modified on Thursday, January 22, 2009 5:53 AM

John Carson wrote:

1. This is a general rule for everyone, not an Obama-specific rule.

Proof?

John Carson wrote:

2. The short form contains all that is relevent, including his place of birth.

Except where he was actually born and who was present.

John Carson wrote:

Apparently the Republican Party is in on the conspiracy too, since it has not challenged Obama's credentials.

The RNC? Who knows their reasons. But plenty in the party have.

John Carson wrote:

Furthermore, the Governor of Hawaii (with authority over the birth records) is a Republican.

One person... Wow. From the various current SotUS cases[^], there are basically three issues: place of birth, dual citizenship, and renouncement of citizenship in Indonesia. Place of Birth "Hawaii Revised Statute 338-17.8 allows registration of birth in Hawaii for a child that was born outside of Hawaii to parents who, for a year preceding the childs birth, claimed Hawaii as their place of residence. The parents would be issued a Certification of Live Birth. This is not proof of where the child was born. It only proves that the parents claimed Hawaii as their main place of residence for the prior year."[^] "Under Hawaiian law, it is possible (both legally and illegally) for a person to have been born out of state, yet have a birth certificate on file in the Department of Health." "Contrary to what you may have read, no document made available to the public, nor any statement by Hawaiian officials, evidences conclusively that Obama was born in Hawaii."[^] The "short form" doesn't answer the question of where exactly he was born, and doesn't prove he was born in Hawaii. C

John Carson

BoneSoft wrote:

Proof?

Let's look at the full factcheck.org quote that you quote in part:

The long form is drawn up by the hospital and includes additional information such as birth weight and parents' hometowns. The short form is printed by the state and draws from a database with fewer details. The Hawaii Department of Health's birth record request form does not give the option to request a photocopy of your long-form birth certificate, but their short form has enough information to be acceptable to the State Department. We tried to ask the Hawaii DOH why they only offer the short form, among other questions, but they have not given a response.

Now go to the Hawaii Dept's web site and tell me where it says that you have a choice of two types of birth certificates unless you are Barack Obama, in which case you only get one: http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/vital-records/vital_records.html[^] It really makes no difference. The information in the short form is taken from the long form.

BoneSoft wrote:

Except where he was actually born and who was present.

This is rubbish. The document for Obama states that the "City, Town or Location of Birth" was Honolulu.

BoneSoft wrote:

The RNC? Who knows their reasons.

This marks you as a classic conspiracy nut. You just don't understand human and political motivation and/or you don't think that a convincing story requires a convincing account of motives. The RNC have a powerful reason to discredit and disqualify the Democratic presidential candidate. Only a fool would find a story convincing that didn't account for their apparent failure to act in accordance with this powerful motivation.

BoneSoft wrote:

But plenty in the party have.

A handful of nutters. Noone of any standing.

BoneSoft wrote:

One person... Wow.

One person along with the whole of the Republican leadership. But it doesn't take more than one person acting against apparent interest to put a huge dent in a conspiracy theory. Like I said, a convincing story requires a

BoneSoft

oilFactotum wrote:

Waterboarding is torture, not interrogation.

Waterboarding is an action, interrogation is a purpose. Even if waterboarding is torture, the fact is that it was done for information, not punishment.

oilFactotum wrote:

We already do

If that were so, there'd be no debate.

oilFactotum wrote:

But no one has done that.

Says you.

Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.

oilFactotum

BoneSoft wrote:

Waterboarding is an action

Waterboarding is torture, torture is not interrogation. Waterboarding was created for the purpose of extracting FALSE confessions and at that it is very, very good. Reliable information, not so much.

BoneSoft wrote:

there'd be no debate.

Untrue. Consensus does not require unanimity or the elimination of debate. BTW the majority of Americans (58%-40%) oppose torture under ALL circumstances. Unsuprisingly, most Republicans disagree(42%-55%). But even with them there is substantial categorical opposition to torture.

BoneSoft wrote:

Says you.

"So say we all!" :)

BoneSoft

oilFactotum wrote:

Waterboarding was created for the purpose of extracting FALSE confessions

Gigantic steaming pile of BS. Can generate false confessions? Yes. Designed specifically for that? BS. Besides, from what I understand, the relatively recent cases your horked off about were done for information, not confessions. However, the entire argument is now moot, the One has decried that all badies will be presented with a warm cup of tea and a fluffy cushion. Case closed.

oilFactotum wrote:

Untrue. Consensus does not require unanimity or the elimination of debate.

So you can just claim consensus and it's so? Cool. I hereby declare that there is consensus that Americans don't want socialist programs. :thumbsup:

oilFactotum wrote:

So say we all

Obviously false.

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oilFactotum

BoneSoft wrote:

Designed specifically for that?

Absolutely. Have you forgotten about the inquisition, The Soviet show trials of the '30's? Manufactured false confessions all.

BoneSoft wrote:

were done for information, not confessions.

Indeed they were, but you aren't listening.

oilFactotumwrote:

Waterboarding was created for the purpose of extracting FALSE confessions

We used methods created specifically to extract false confessions for the purpose of extracting information. Jack Baur not withstanding, torture is a very unreliable method for getting good information. And it is currently illegal in the US and has been for more than just the past 8 years.

BoneSoft wrote:

However, the entire argument is now moot

Thank God. Finally an end to the lawlessness of the past 8 years!

BoneSoft wrote:

all badies will be presented with a warm cup of tea and a fluffy cushion

How utterly dishonest. Tea and cookies[^]

BoneSoft wrote:

So you can just claim consensus and it's so?

No, foolish one. The Geneva conventions(US was instrumental in their creation), as well established US law, and even the polls that I previously sited. And quite frankly, the 'debate' over torture is nothing more than partisan supporters of Bush claiming that torture is not torture, because, if it were(it is), Bush would be a war criminal(which he is).

BoneSoft wrote:

Obviously false.

Sorry you missed the pop culture reference.