Opporturnity

[KaRl]

fat_boy wrote:

Thats a facetious response Karl.

Not even. You're the only one who mention environemental questions as a root for the current crisis.

fat_boy wrote:

But it cant be fixed by moving to a green economy Karl! Which was your very siggestion.

No. My suggestion is that this crisis can be an opportunity. My point is: Massive amounts of public money will be injected, let use it in a greener direction, it would be wiser.

fat_boy wrote:

It can only be fixed by scrapping the financial instruments that are behind this or improving the regulation that allowed such bad practices to go unchecked.

Scrapping financial instruments won't give a job to the millions who lost theirs worldwide.

How do you own disorder? Fold with us! ¤ flickr

[KaRl]

Mike Gaskey wrote:

because people are out of work and can't afford the f***ing things, which have been made more expensive through government intervention.

Rather because car makers make products which are not like the ones consumers want. That's why Toyota is now in front of GM.

Mike Gaskey wrote:

because banks loaned, gave mortgages to people that really weren't qualified, under pressure from the government.

At the gun point.... yeah right. Why do housing collapse in Europe too then? Just because there was a huge speculative bubble, as in the US.

Mike Gaskey wrote:

those mortgages are now toxic loans

Those toxic loans have been multiplied many times thanks to the financial practice of securitization.

Mike Gaskey wrote:

we have government intervention that totally f***ed

Dream on. Even Greenspan recognizes that the Free Market ideology is flawed.

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread Fold with us! ¤ flickr

[phannon86]

While I'm not taken in by the whole global warming/climate change personally, I see the benefits of switching to a fuel type, why waste a finite resource that so many countries squabble over? And I'm with you on electric cars Rob, too many people are just blind to where the electricity comes from. It goes unnoticed simply if the emissions of the car itself while running are zero. Hydrogen fuelled cars seem much more viable (Honda FCX Clarity), if you're going to power a car, why not use the most common element in the universe?

He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man

[R Giskard Reventlov]

You said: "to suggest that the former head of it is "entrenched in world banking" is a serious misunderstanding" And he is an economist and an ex-advisor to the UK govt on financial matters. Besides, everyone gets advice about banking from people who know nothing about banking: they're called bankers.

me, me, me

[Rob Graham]

Nice quote out of context there Karl. You should apply for a job with MSNBC. What the article you linked to (which did not cite any of those studies) actually said was: "David Friedman, research director of the Clean Vehicles Program at the Union of Concerned Scientists, thinks that CNW’s results and apparent methodology bring red flags. “This study has been completely contradicted by studies from MIT, Argonne National Labs and Carnegie Mellon’s Lifecycle Assessment Group. The reality is hybrids can significantly cut global warming pollution, reduce energy use, and save drivers thousands at the pump,” commented Friedman." So what we actually have is an assertion that makes claims about studies it does not cite or identify made by a third party with a clearly biased interest. I would still like to see proof that generating electricty in a power plant with fossil fuel (80% of the US supply), transmitting it over a lossy grid to charge batteries, then running a vehicle with an electric motor from those batteries is more efficient than using the fossile fuel to directy generate power at the point of use.

[Rob Graham]

the problem with hydrogen is where to get it. On earth most of it is bound up in water molecules, and you need to generate electricity to separate it out. You end up with the same problem: you don't really fix the problem, you just relocate it with increasing inefficiency. There may be other ways to separate hydrogen from oxygen than electrolysis, but they will all require energy input of some sort to break the molecular bonds. The physical process will also have some losses, so there will be a net loss of efficiency. Then there's the problem that water vapor produced by recombining it in a fuel cell is an even more potent green house gas than CO2. What happens when we start producing that on a scale 10x -100x greater than present? TANSTAFL.

[AndyKEnZ]

fat_boy wrote:

if the banks dont start lending again there isnt going to be an economy at all

Well, we'll see, but after all the banking system doesn't create anything, I think they'll be nationalized and they'll start lending again, hopefully better controlled this time. Manufacturing has to make a comeback or we're definately snookered.

[Mike Gaskey]

Ka?l wrote:

Even Greenspan recognizes that the Free Market ideology is flawed.

Free market ideology is THE ONLY IDEOLOGY that works, because it is the natural way.

Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.

[Oakman]

AndyKEnZ wrote:

Manufacturing has to make a comeback or we're definately snookered.

That won't make China happy.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[John Carson]

digital man wrote:

You said: "to suggest that the former head of it is "entrenched in world banking" is a serious misunderstanding"

Yes, it is a serious misunderstanding, unless the word "entrenched" has been redefined.

digital man wrote:

And he is an economist

So...? Are all economists to be ignored henceforth? Who should we ask then? Violinists, pottery makers...?

digital man wrote:

and an ex-advisor to the UK govt on financial matters.

Public finance, according to Wikipedia. Public finance != banking. The field of "public finance" is principally concerned with taxation. In any event, it is absurd to draw conclusions about Stern just because he was part of the government bureacracy. Who is to say that his advice was followed or that he was wrong on any specific points where his advice was followed. Your method of assessing people makes Joseph McCarthy look like a model of judiciousness by comparison.

John Carson

[Lost User]

Ka?l wrote:

You're the only one who mention environemental questions as a root for the current crisis.

Karl, I dont know if you are being intentionaly thick or just arguming like a 14 year old but plese, dont.

Ka?l wrote:

Massive amounts of public money will be injected, let use it in a greener direction, it would be wiser.

If the banks dont start lending its the end of life as we kow it.

Ka?l wrote:

Scrapping financial instruments won't give a job to the millions who lost theirs worldwide.

No, but it WILL stop it happening again. (And improved regulation/understanding of those constructs)

Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

[Lost User]

Manufacturing is the ONE thing the UK can do right now and succeed at due to unemployment and devaluation of the pound. As for banks, without lending, there isnt an economy.

Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

[Lost User]

China is so fucked. They produce, for the west, all those toys. Phones, big TVs, consumer electronics inm general. Given that these are the first victims, along with restaurants, of a downturn their economy will contract by the most.

Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

[R Giskard Reventlov]

John Carson wrote:

Are all economists to be ignored henceforth? Who should we ask then? Violinists, pottery makers...?

They have not got a great record to date: banks are guided by economists: violinists and potters couldn't get it nearly as wrong.

John Carson wrote:

Who is to say that his advice was followed or that he was wrong on any specific points where his advice was followed.

No one: my main point was that why the hell would we trust anything he has to say? Economists are just people who have a degree in guessing.

me, me, me

[Oakman]

fat_boy wrote:

their economy will contract by the most.

From your mouth to God's ear. I note that the oil-producers aren't looking forward with much eagerness, either, since they seem equally sensitive to a recession/depression.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[John Carson]

digital man wrote:

They have not got a great record to date: banks are guided by economists: violinists and potters couldn't get it nearly as wrong.

Anti-intellectual drivel.

John Carson

[Oakman]

Mike Gaskey wrote:

Free market ideology is THE ONLY IDEOLOGY that works, because it is the natural way.

You mean like the rhythm method of birth control?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[wolfbinary]

Oakman wrote:

And you're right, Space Exploration - which I have no doubt has contributed greatly to G.L.O.B.A.L. W.A.R.M.I.N.G.

I didn't mean it like that. I was trying and should have just stated recycling. That's what I was referring to. There are people researching water treatment, etc. I wasn't trying to say that space exploration caused global warming hat's just plain illionish. I'm really looking forward to growing season this year cherry trees, tomatoes, green peppers,hmmm good. I wait all year for fresh tomatoes. Tomatoes are magnesium lovers. I always end up with 6'x4' plants this way.

[R Giskard Reventlov]

John Carson wrote:

Anti-intellectual drivel.

If only that made any sense: you're just being silly now.

me, me, me

[KaRl]

Rob Graham wrote:

I would still like to see proof that generating electricty in a power plant with fossil fuel (80% of the US supply), transmitting it over a lossy grid to charge batteries, then running a vehicle with an electric motor from those batteries is more efficient than using the fossile fuel to directy generate power at the point of use.

The Hummer H2 weights 2903 kg with a 6.0L V8 engine, when the Prius weights 1254 kg with a 4 cylinder 1.5 L engine. In your opinion, which one needs the more energy to run? I agree the Prius is maybe not the best solution. For instance in Europe we've got small diesel cars which get a better mileage than the Prius. However the Prius goes in the good direction, by using new sources of energy, like converting kinetic energy of motion into electrical energy when breaking, and by reducing emission in urban areas.

Rob Graham wrote:

generating electricty in a power plant with fossil fuel (80% of the US supply)

Now that the Texas Oil Cartel doesn't run the White House anymore, maybe the US will start to think about that someday, and produce electricy without using that much fossil fuel.

If you kill a whale, you get Greenpeace and Jacques Cousteau on your back, but wipe out sardines and you get a canning subsidy!

Fold with us! ¤ flickr