2nd Amendment rights under attack in the House

Oakman

Christian Graus wrote:

But, are you denying that kids getting access to guns is a problem in the US, one that leads to deaths of said children

Sure it's a problem. So is kids driving. Guess which is responsible for more deaths? Almost twice as many kids in the U.S. are killed by a weapon that is not a firearm as those that are killed by a gun or rifle. (I picked up that statistic from a pro-guncontrol website, by the way.) That's still way too many, but guess what? When we look at gun-deaths (of any kind) we see two facts: 1) 80% of all of them occur on the east or west coast or our border with Mexico; put a map that shows where hispanic immigrants congregate over a map that shows gun deaths and they coincide almost perfectly. States like South Dakota or Wyoming have extremely low deaths by gunfire rates comparable to those in any other industrialized country. Problem is that reporting that guns kill a lot of people is politically correct. Reporting that hispanics are on the giving and receiving end of most of those deaths is racist.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Christian Graus

Oakman wrote:

So is kids driving. Guess which is responsible for more deaths?

I'm sorry, but this is so stupid. It's beneath you to say something this dumb.

Oakman wrote:

put a map that shows where hispanic immigrants congregate over a map that shows gun deaths and they coincide almost perfectly

Are the actual deaths of hispanic kids, or is this co-incidence or related in some other way ?

Oakman wrote:

Reporting that hispanics are on the giving and receiving end of most of those deaths is racist.

Is it true tho ?

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Oakman

Just google on 'if somebody was going to try to take me out, I was going to take them with me Feinstein' and or 'Banning guns addresses a fundamental right of all Americans to feel safe Feinstein' You'd probably also get some hits under liberal hypocrite.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

BoneSoft

Christian Graus wrote:

But, are you denying that kids getting access to guns is a problem in the US, one that leads to deaths of said children ?

I'll deny it. 10 per year are 10 too many, but there are hundreds of things that are far more deadly to kids than guns. Once swimming pools, stairs, plastic bags, fat parents, McDonalds and cars are outlawed, then we can look at guns.

Christian Graus wrote:

Yes, but the 'liberty' to own guns is bloody stupid, and the defences and reasons given for it, insane.

Apparently in the eye of the beholder. [edit] Sorry, 10 per 100,000 was the statistic I'd seen some time ago. [/edit] [really edit] Causes of death in kids under 15 for 2005 according to the CDC[^]

Cars 2,633 of 65 million (4.05%)
Suffocation 991 of 65 million (1.52%)
Drowning 854 of 65 million (1.31%)
Pedestrian 629 of 65 million (0.97%)
Poisoning 127 of 65 million (0.20%)
Guns 88 of 65 million (0.14%)

Cars, plastic bags and swimming pools are far larger threats. [/really edit]

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modified on Friday, February 13, 2009 3:54 PM

Shog9 0

Christian Graus wrote:

They are attacking your right to kill stuff, just to make sure kids can't get at guns ?

Well, it doesn't matter. They aren't going to make sure of that, regardless of what they pass. When you're a kid, just about everything fun is illegal, so you kinda stop letting it bother you.

Christian Graus · modified on Friday, February 13, 2009 3:54 PM

BoneSoft wrote:

Once swimming pools, stairs, plastic bags, fat parents, McDonalds and cars are outlawed, then we can look at guns.

How can anyone repeat this BS with a straight face ? It's just plain stupid. Guns exist only to kill people. They have no other purpose.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Oakman

Christian Graus wrote:

I'm sorry, but this is so stupid. It's beneath you to say something this dumb.

Why? If the problem is kids dying, shouldn't we go after the major causes first?

Christian Graus wrote:

Are the actual deaths of hispanic kids, or is this co-incidence or related in some other way ?

Although rarely publicized, America's Hispanic population suffers from firearms violence at rates far greater than the U.S. population overall. In 1998, 72 percent of Hispanic homicide victims were killed with a firearm (compared to 74 percent of black victims and 56 percent of white victims). [^] From the same article: "Homicide, both firearm- and non-firearm related, is the seventh leading cause of death among Hispanics (in contrast to whites, where homicide is the seventeenth leading cause of death) and the second leading cause of death for Hispanic youths aged 15 to 24."

Christian Graus wrote:

Is it true tho ?

Statistically, it's quite easy to prove that Blacks and Latinos are far more often the victims of all kinds of violent crime from simple assault up to murder. However, stats about perpetrators are skewed because the government - which does separate out Latino victims, mixes Latinos and whites together as perps. This has the effect of making the statistics meaningless.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Doctor Nick

You mean other than killing tasty animals too?

------------------------------------- Do not do what has already been done. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.. but it ROCKS absolutely, too.

Christian Graus

Oakman wrote:

Why? If the problem is kids dying, shouldn't we go after the major causes first?

Guns exist to kill people. There's a need for cars in society, so in that case, we need to find ways to control how they are used. There is no need for guns, there is no analagous situation.

Oakman wrote:

Although rarely publicized, America's Hispanic population suffers from firearms violence at rates far greater than the U.S. population overall. In 1998, 72 percent of Hispanic homicide victims were killed with a firearm (compared to 74 percent of black victims and 56 percent of white victims). [^]

So, black people are on top ? I'd have expected this more than hispanic. But, what is the cause ? I'd suggest it's poverty, not skin color, or culture.

Oakman wrote:

However, stats about perpetrators are skewed because the government - which does separate out Latino victims, mixes Latinos and whites together as perps. This has the effect of making the statistics meaningless.

OK - not hard to come up with a conspiracy theory there. That's just dumb. I still think the core issue is poverty.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

BoneSoft

Christian Graus wrote:

How can anyone repeat this BS with a straight face ?

Because it's backed by fact.

Christian Graus wrote:

Guns exist only to kill people. They have no other purpose.

No. Guns exist only to kill things. So what? That doesn't necessarily equate to a huge concern for kids. Lots of things need to be killed. Like people who want to break into my house, and squirrels and birds once Uh-bama's "stimulus" plan kicks in.

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Christian Graus

Sure - if you're a farmer, or if you're a hunter, you need a gun. But, not in your home, and not in suburbia.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Christian Graus

BoneSoft wrote:

Because it's backed by fact.

Yeah, it's backed by fact, and layers of deliberate stupidity. It's not your fault, people in the US exist in a cult of violence and gun ownership particularly. it's not surprising you can't think straight on the issue.

BoneSoft wrote:

No. Guns exist only to kill things

OK, sure.

BoneSoft wrote:

That doesn't necessarily equate to a huge concern for kids

Yes, it does, for two reasons. 1 - when a child dies from a gunshot, the gun is being used to do what it was designed to do 2 -there's no actual NEED for most people to own a gun, whereas, there IS a need to own a car. 3 - there's ways for people to use a car and to limit the odds of it killing someone. Limiting the chances of a gun hurting someone, means breaking it.

BoneSoft wrote:

Like people who want to break into my house

See, this is the issue. A culture of violence and gun ownership. I'd go after someone in my house with an axe or a poker. I'd know they almost certainly don't have a gun.

BoneSoft wrote:

and squirrels and birds once Uh-bama's "stimulus" plan kicks in.

Don't tell my wife - when we were in the US, she was so excited every time we saw a squirrel.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Doctor Nick

See in Iowa people who live in suburbia also hunt. Where should they put their guns? Should the check them when the come into town?

------------------------------------- Do not do what has already been done. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.. but it ROCKS absolutely, too.

Christian Graus

Doctor Nick wrote:

Where should they put their guns? Should the check them when the come into town?

In a gun cabinet, as per the checks that they are proposing to do.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

BoneSoft

Yes, it could ponentially be a better world if nobody had guns. But realistically, when someone wants to harm someone else, they will use whatever is available. So in the gun debate, accidents are the only real issue. Well almost... Criminals who obtain an illegal gun are an issue for those who choose not to own one. In any case, ownership without accident requires some responsibility to safety, which of course is a task many people aren't up to. Maybe it was a faulty thought by the founders, who lived in decidedly different times, but the second amendment won't be going away lightly. I think the founders originally meant for that to be a means by which the people could guard against the government turning into something it wasn't meant to be, but in this day and age, the millitary dwarfs anything the public has anyway. But bottom line for me is this, other people have them, I like knowing I have mine to guard against all those others. And I take the safety of those weapons very seriously.

Christian Graus wrote:

she was so excited every time we saw a squirrel.

They are cute little buggers. And I don't expect that they taste real wonderful, but if it comes to it... At the college I went to, squirrels in the quad were so used to being around people, you could sit in the grass and they'd come up to you looking for food. However, as Europe can attest, you want to be warry of rodents with fleas.

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Dan Neely

Christian Graus wrote:

BoneSoft wrote: Like people who want to break into my house See, this is the issue. A culture of violence and gun ownership. I'd go after someone in my house with an axe or a poker. I'd know they almost certainly don't have a gun.

Which is fine and dandy if you're a large healthy male. Women, small men, children, the elderly, and the infirm are at a great disadvantage in a confrontation using any sort of melee weapon. Excepting very young children and the severely disabled: God created men. Samuel Colt made them equal.

Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall

Doctor Nick

BoneSoft wrote:

But bottom line for me is this, other people have them, I like knowing I have mine to guard against all those others

And the coming zombie invasion...

BoneSoft wrote:

I don't expect that they taste real wonderful, but if it comes to it...

Actually, this will sound cliche but they taste like chicken. Gamey but chicken none the less.

------------------------------------- Do not do what has already been done. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.. but it ROCKS absolutely, too.

BoneSoft

Doctor Nick wrote:

And the coming zombie invasion...

But that's another 4 years away, and can be avoided altogether by voting in a red state.

Doctor Nick wrote:

they taste like chicken

That's good to know. So squirrel teriaki and squirrel noodle soup are options. ;P

Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.

Christian Graus

BoneSoft wrote:

So in the gun debate, accidents are the only real issue

They appear to be the main issue this bill is trying to address.

BoneSoft wrote:

Well almost... Criminals who obtain an illegal gun are an issue for those who choose not to own one.

Yes, I guess that will continue to be more likely to occur in the US than it is here, for a time at least.

BoneSoft wrote:

In any case, ownership without accident requires some responsibility to safety, which of course is a task many people aren't up to

Which is what this bill is trying to address, yes.

BoneSoft wrote:

Maybe it was a faulty thought by the founders, who lived in decidedly different time

No, it made sense at the time.

BoneSoft wrote:

, but in this day and age, the millitary dwarfs anything the public has anyway.

Thank you, most people won't accept this point when I make it.

BoneSoft wrote:

And I take the safety of those weapons very seriously.

So, you'd pass this apparently new test, then. I'd imagine most people would, I mean gun deaths are surely a small % of gun owners.

BoneSoft wrote:

They are cute little buggers

Yes, they are.

BoneSoft wrote:

However, as Europe can attest, you want to be warry of rodents with fleas.

The fact that they were not used as a food source in the past, tells me that others have tried and found it wanting.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Christian Graus

dan neely wrote:

Women, small men, children, the elderly, and the infirm are at a great disadvantage in a confrontation using any sort of melee weapon

True. But EVERYONE is at a disadvantage in a society that expects both the robber and robbee to be armed,

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.