Good Answer

[Oakman]

Stan Shannon wrote:

So,basically, you're saying

Why did you feel the need to attribute something to Ed that he never said and would reject out of hand? What he actually did say can be argued against by anyone who takes the time to read it carefully. Since he's a bright guy and articulate, shouldn't you pay him the respect of responding to what he wrote instead of setting up a strawman and knocking it down, just to pretend that you are part of this discussion?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Rob Graham]

She makes me recoil...

[Stan Shannon]

Sorry, but I went back and re-read everything very carefully and I'm pretty damn sure my interpreation of what he said is spot on. The man obviously views the political principles I, and many other AMericans, believe in as something that should be opposed by violent resistance eventhough those principles were promoted by a legally elected government and conducted in an entirely legal fashion and carried out by American forcees. He feels that way about me, I feel the same way about him. I'm just more honest about it. I don't try to disquise my treason with platitudes.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

Oakman wrote:

My desire to understand what happened made me confront head-on the fact that "middle-east" and or "arab" did not mean "slavering killer."

I don't blame you or the thousands upon thousands (if not millions) of people who think that initially. I'd love the chance to deal with those bastards. You see, the way I see it, a killer is a killer regardless of creed, race, ideology and what have you. For such a minuscule number to have tainted the lives of many in such a way is unforgivable. For many governments to be lax in dealing with them, in my books is also unforgivable. I can only hope that evolutions (as opposed to revolutions or outside interference) will come along and depose greedy, selfish, dictators. I can only hope it happens in my lifetime.

Oakman wrote:

he only good news there is that the gene pool is being drained. The price in terms of other lives, however, is unacceptable.

I have to agree with both accounts.

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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation

[Oakman]

Stan Shannon wrote:

I'm pretty damn sure my interpreation of what he said is spot on.

Your interpreation is about as good as your spelling.

Stan Shannon wrote:

The man obviously views the political principles I, and many other AMericans, believe in as something that should be opposed by violent resistance eventhough those principles were promoted by a legally elected government and conducted in an entirely legal fashion and carried out by American forcees.

Please cite one post where Ed said that, or anything like that.

Stan Shannon wrote:

I don't try to disquise my treason with platitudes.

Don't kid yourself. It's not treason, it's just whining. Since I already know everything else you might say, forgive me if I don't pay any attention from here on out.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Ed Gadziemski]

Stan Shannon wrote:

you're saying that it is entirely appropriate that the freedom loving people of Iraq should be killing the evil American troops

No. I'm saying if my country were invaded and occupied, I would resist the occupier and it is understandable that some Iraqis have resisted the Americans. The other assholes, those blowing up women and children as part of their centuries-old Shia-Sunni civil war, deserve whatever happens to them. Are you saying that you would not fight if your country was invaded and occupied?

[JimmyRopes]

Oakman wrote:

I really am a gentle soul, afraid of loud noises and things that go boomp in the night.

Not all things that go "boomp" in the night are bad. :~

Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes

[JimmyRopes]

Stan Shannon wrote:

So,basically, you're saying that it is entirely appropriate that the freedom loving people of Iraq should be killing the evil American troops, and that you are taking their side against your own country. We need a word in the English language that describes such an attitude

Sedition, betrayal, treason, and disloyalty come to mind. :rolleyes:

Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes

[Oakman]

JimmyRopes wrote:

Not all things that go "boomp" in the night are bad.

But having been raised in a Christian household, I prefer to hear "Oh God! Oh God!!! Oh Jesus GOD!!!" ;)

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Stan Shannon]

Ed Gadziemski wrote:

No. I'm saying if my country were invaded and occupied, I would resist the occupier and it is understandable that some Iraqis have resisted the Americans.

That all depends. If some foreign army were to invade for the purpose of liberating me from the democrat party, I would happily join them.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[RichardM1]

Stan Shannon wrote:

eventhough those principles were promoted by a legally elected government and conducted in an entirely legal fashion and carried out by American forcees

Getting over the American forces part, if the legally elected government of Russia has some good principle that leads them to invade the US, to save us from, say, a republican government that is dismantling our constitution, you would call anyone who fights them a them terrorist? I think a lot of the Iraqis fighting the legally elected Iraqi government (and us) are terrorists, but I bet there are a few real patriots fighting what they really consider to be the invasion of their country and the puppet government that was set up by the invaders. I sure wouldn't be too keen on supporting a government set up by the Russians, even if apparently elected by us. As Al Frankin and Stalin both tell us, it's not the votes that count, it's who counts the vote.

Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.

[Stan Shannon]

RichardM1 wrote:

a republican government that is dismantling our constitution

But the republicans have never done that. They haven't even attempted it. But that is the agenda of the left and the democrat party they control. The only difference I can discern between being ruled by Russians and democrats is that at least the Russians are more honest about their objectives.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[RichardM1]

Stan Shannon wrote:

RichardM1 wrote: a republican government that is dismantling our constitution But the republicans have never done that.

See, you probably wouldn't believe Sadam was a dictator, as long as he was YOUR dictator :laugh: I am not arguing that Bush was or wasn't, I'm giving an excuse, that could end up being wrong, like WMDs. There are people who honestly believe that Bush was dismantling the constitution, as you honestly believe he was not. But that is off topic, and you are sidestepping the point: You believe your country is run correctly (give or take). Hell, I bet that even if Obama does socialize the country, you would fight back if Russia entered the US with the intention of saving us from ourselves. I sure would. There are Iraqis who believed their country was being run correctly prior to the US entering it. Whether or not you believe the same thing they do does not change the patriotic nature of their motives. Don't get me wrong, there are many who are just opportunistic bastards, nut cases, zealots, power hungry or something else. The problem is that you assume they are all motivated by the same thing, and that makes you prone to mistakes in understanding how to deal with them.

Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.

[RichardM1]

Well than, when people like me finally win it back from the invaders, we would have you shot as a collaborationist.:mad:

Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.

[Stan Shannon]

I have no problem with that. Fire away and be damned. The principles promoted by the modern democrat party are as alien and destructive to the American way of life as were those of any enemy we have ever fought. There is nothing about them that even remotely incorporates any of the principles the nation was founded to achieve. They are the enemy of all of those founding principles. Thanks to all the people who voted for Obama and company, every life ever sacrificed to defend this country was a complete waste. It achieved nothing.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Stan Shannon]

RichardM1 wrote:

The problem is that you assume they are all motivated by the same thing, and that makes you prone to mistakes in understanding how to deal with them.

The only thing I assume is that once our military forces have been committed to combat by a constitutionally valid process, it is the duty of every American citizen to not publically promote arguments which justify why those troops should be killed.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[RichardM1]

You are not willing to answer whether you would defend the country against the Russians if they invaded? So far, it sounds if they passed a law making it legal, you would be totally OK with it, since it would be legal and all.

Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.

[RichardM1]

Stan Shannon wrote:

Thanks to all the people who voted for Obama and company, every life ever sacrificed to defend this country was a complete waste. It achieved nothing.

And yet, the right to vote for Obama is one of the things they died defending it for. Funny, that.

Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.

[Tim Craig]

RichardM1 wrote:

Well than, when people like me finally win it back from the invaders, we would have you shot as a collaborationist

Well, Stan by his own definition, is a traitor so he should have no problem with that. ;P

"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke

[Mustafa Ismail Mustafa]

I applaud the volumes of logic, truth and reality in that post regardless of whether or not it was wasted on Stan.

RichardM1 wrote:

There are Iraqis who believed their country was being run correctly prior to the US entering it.

The bulk of Iraqis hated Saddam like the pox that he was, but every Iraqi I know without exception was against the US invasion for 2 reasons. 1. Everyone knew that a power vacuum would result which will cause everyone and their cousin to try and stake claims to "ruling" Iraq and cashing in on it. 2. The advocated concept of that change must come from within. I personally lay the loss of every American, so called coalition of the willing, and Iraqi that died or was maimed as a direct or indirect act of the war at the feet of the Bush administration. I don't know what the intent of purposely lying to the American public and the world at large by stating that they had incontrovertible evidence that he had WMDs and was planning on using them to harm the US. Why the lie? Oil? That certainly might be one objective, but I doubt its the only one. I do not claim to know what other advantage they might have gotten. Many will argue against my thoughts, particularly Stan.

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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation