Mortgage Bailout

Stan Shannon

Christian Graus wrote:

The point of taxes is that they are spent to benefit those who pay them

The sad thing is that you actually seem to believe that. Taxes are spent to keep government in power by producing the illusion in enough people that they are benefiting at some one else's expense.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Oakman

Ed Gadziemski wrote:

Plus, we could have saved about $10 trillion if we had simply addressed mortgages, the alleged root of the problem, instead of trying to trickle-down from Wall Street.

It's my understand that we could have paid off every mortgage in the country - which should have ended the cry sis.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

leckey 0

I think that shows that just because you have money, you have to do your research. My sister in law wanted to an ARM and hubby (her brother) and I finally talked her out of it. She's a PhD candidate in MATH and she could not figure out this one.

Back in the blog beatch! http://CraptasticNation.blogspot.com/[^]

leckey 0

Can you site some sources on those stats? The info I have read puts the "can't afford" rate much higher. Thanks! :)

Back in the blog beatch! http://CraptasticNation.blogspot.com/[^]

Christian Graus

Oakman wrote:

Okay, she obviously wasn't the brightest bulb on the block

Yes, I'm sure a lot of people got pushed into things they could not afford. I'm not saying these are bad people. I'm saying they are probably mostly pretty dumb, and dumb is still not something that other people should have to pay for.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Christian Graus

Which is why I said it should not be the *only* criteria, not that no bail out at all is reasonable.

Ed Gadziemski wrote:

Others developed health or family problems such as divorce that ate up their cash reserves and income.

Well, that's sad ( seriously ), but that happens to people all the time, this lot should get bailed out because of the timing of when it happened to them ?

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Christian Graus

Stan Shannon wrote:

The sad thing is that you actually seem to believe that

Who pays your police, your army ? Who pays for your schools ? You do, via taxes. Without taxes, none of these things would exist. Do you also get robbed ? Yes, but, in THEORY, you should be able to have a say, at the ballot box, to control the problem.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Lost User

Wow! That would be sucha cool way to kick start things! If every mortgage were paid off, then everyone would suddenly have more disposable income (well, not everyone - some lucky people who have paid off their mortgages would gripe that it's just 'not fair') Is that seriously how much money you're talking about in the US? Enough to pay off all the mortgages!?

___________________________________________ .\\axxx (That's an 'M')

Lost User

Also, one imagines, that many defaulters may be otherwise eligible for welfare payments (don't know how it works in the US) and so will be an ongoing cost to he taxpayer - whereas keeping them house with a one-off payment may reduce the overall long term tax bill - and get them spending money.

___________________________________________ .\\axxx (That's an 'M')

Lost User

Christian Graus wrote:

should not be the only basis

true - if you're a couple with no kids living in a million dollar mansion is the proposal to pay it off in the same way a couple with five kids living in a rundown hovel? Wouldn't it be more sensible to make the payments a (very) long term loan? Add a percent onto the tax bill of those in need, until they pay back the loan?

___________________________________________ .\\axxx (That's an 'M')

Christian Graus

Yeah, I agree. Something to help tide people over without actually paying for their home makes sense to me

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Lost User

Ed Gadziemski wrote:

t's my opinion that human decency requires us to not lump everyone into one category

Even mortgage brokers?

Stan Shannon

Christian Graus wrote:

Who pays your police, your army ? Who pays for your schools ? You do, via taxes. Without taxes, none of these things would exist. Do you also get robbed ?

If that is where it stopped I would be perfectly happy with it. Those are the only legitimate reasons to tax (and with schools the taxation should be purely a state/local concern)

Christian Graus wrote:

Yes, but, in THEORY, you should be able to have a say, at the ballot box, to control the problem.

That theory is predicated entirely on being able to cast a free vote. Those who are dependent upon the same state they are voting for cannot possible cast a free vote. Its impossible. They are dependents.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Oakman

Thats what was said by Mort Zuckerman, owner of US News & World Report to Joe Scarborough about a week ago

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Ed Gadziemski

Statistics from Freddie Mac:

(PDF) According to a 2006 study conducted by Freddie Mac, unemployment or curtailment of income (36.3%), illness or death in the family (25%), and excessive obligation (13.6%) are at the top of the reasons homeowners get into trouble.[^]

Statistics from Countrywide Mortgage:

Countrywide Financial, the largest mortgage company in the country, also cites economic performance as a cause of foreclosures. In 2007, Countrywide released its findings on the main reasons for foreclosure, which was reported in about 80 percent of the cases. --Curtailment of income: 58.3% --Illness/Medical: 13.2% --Divorce: 8.4% --Investment Prop./Unable to sell: 6.1% --Low regard for property ownership: 5.5% --Death: 3.6% --Payment adjustment: 1.4% --Other: 3.5%[^]

Also, various studies show loss of home value is a major contributor. In the United States as a whole, 34.6% of the sales made in 2008 were done at a loss. Related to the rapid increase in housing prices are those who overextended in order to buy a home before they becamse even more expensive. Statistics on home pricing effects on foreclosures and defaults from Goverment Accounting Office:

(PDF) Zandi et al (2007) estimated that changes in home price appreciation explained about three-quarters of the nationwide increase in mortgage delinquency rates from the fourth quarter of 2005 through the first quarter of 2007.[^]

Ed Gadziemski

Josh Gray wrote:

Even mortgage brokers?

Sadly, yes. Human decency is at its best when we can forgive the worst.

leckey 0

TY! I will research tomorrow.

Back in the blog beatch! http://CraptasticNation.blogspot.com/[^]

Ed Gadziemski

Christian Graus wrote:

this lot should get bailed out because of the timing of when it happened to them ?

No. One addresses a problem by uncovering the root and treating the rot. If it is true that bad mortgages are the root of the world's current rot, then throwing trillions at the leaves and branches as we are and have been doing fails to address the problem. I'd rather spend $500 billion to solve the problem, even knowing that some people will reap undeserved benefits, than continue to spend trillions to line the pockets of so-called financial wizards while not solving the problem. It's nice to stand on priciple, Christian, and piss on people worse off than yourself, and please, continue to do so if it makes you feel superior, but a little pragmatism mixed with a little compassion is what it will take to clean up the mess we're in. We have not and will not solve the problem by throwing buckets of cash at Wall Street and the other "players" that got us here.

Christian Graus

Ed Gadziemski wrote:

It's nice to stand on priciple, Christian, and piss on people worse off than yourself

Well, those are two different things. I wasn't seeking to do the second, except to the degree that it's possible that helping people pretty much at random, some of whom deserve it only because they are stupid, may well not solve the worlds issues, it will just spend a lot of money.

Ed Gadziemski wrote:

We have not and will not solve the problem by throwing buckets of cash at Wall Street and the other "players" that got us here.

Well, that was just bloody stupid, I wasn't advocating that, either.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

Christian Graus

Stan Shannon wrote:

Those are the only legitimate reasons to tax (and with schools the taxation should be purely a state/local concern)

What about the fire service ? Ambulances ? The forest service ? The list goes on.

Stan Shannon wrote:

. Those who are dependent upon the same state they are voting for cannot possible cast a free vote. Its impossible. They are dependents.

I tend to agree, and that's the problem with welfare, is that people will vote for whoever pays them the most. Personally, I think that those on the state's dime, should not be allowed to vote until they have a job and are paying taxes.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.