GatesOfVienna: Chump Change

73Zeppelin

So, what are the implications for an economy built solely on fiat money and fractional reserve banking? In particular, what does that imply for fiscal debt and the balance of payments? What about the shadow banking system - is it relevant?

Ilion

73Zeppelin wrote:

So, what are the implications for an economy built solely on fiat money and fractional reserve banking? In particular, what does that imply for fiscal debt and the balance of payments? What about the shadow banking system - is it relevant?

Is any of it real? One of the major points being made is that the entire system rests upon nothing but the continued confidence that the system is sound. That is, the entire system is but floating in the aether; this cannot be sustained forever.

Lost User

73Zeppelin wrote:

what are the implications for an economy built solely on fiat money

Depends whethedr oil is sold in your currency or not.

73Zeppelin wrote:

fractional reserve banking

Its a bad idea in anyones book.

73Zeppelin wrote:

In particular, what does that imply for fiscal debt and the balance of payments?

Depends if your currency is used for foreign reserves.

Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

Dalek Dave

fat_boy wrote:

Depends if your currency is used for foreign reserves.

The big five ($,£,SFr,€ and ¥) are all Reserve Currencies, and yet fluctuate wildly. US, UK and Yen are National Currencies backed by Capital Assets, (Gold, Oil, Industry etc), the SFr is backed by Hard Currency, and the Euro is backed by willpower and nothing else. The Euro is really in trouble as it is a nonstable currency. (Mind you, try the $NZ for that!)

------------------------------------ "Your manuscript is both good and original. But the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good." Dr Samuel Johnson

73Zeppelin

Sure it's real, people deal in it everyday. The question is not "is any of it real", the question is "is it of real value". And if it isn't, what to do about it?

73Zeppelin

I know all that - I'm trying to coerce a decent response out of him! Ate here[^] last night. Little pricey, but the food and wine was damned good. Strictly Bourguignon cuisine. I had dorade with amandes.

Dalek Dave

I would have had... Le Pressé de Foie Gras de Canard, Confit de Dattes Followed by Le Râble de Lapin Rôti, Jus aux Olives et au Thym, Duo de Petits Légumes Then a Nice Pudding! (Spotted Dick and Custard perhaps) BTW, testing my French... The Cave of William's Door sounds like a Euphemism.

------------------------------------ "Your manuscript is both good and original. But the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good." Dr Samuel Johnson

Oakman

73Zeppelin wrote:

And if it isn't, what to do about it?

Revalue the currency, go back on the gold standard, and repudiate the national debt. Or wait until the country is obviously becoming bankrupt (you identified this point for me - it's when the credit rating is downgraded) and its currency is as much of a joke as Zimbabwe's and its national debt worth the paper it's written on - less, actually, since the paper can be used to wipe your arse. The former option is not necessarily any more palatable than the latter and no politician in the world has the balls to even suggest it, but it is the only course of action I can see that would have a chance of staving off the long night.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

BoneSoft

Dalek Dave wrote:

The Cave of William's Door sounds like a Euphemism.

As did "spotted dick and custard" did to me. :laugh:

Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.

Dalek Dave

BoneSoft? :-D Euphemisms all round today!

------------------------------------ "Your manuscript is both good and original. But the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good." Dr Samuel Johnson

BoneSoft

Touche :-O

Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.

Lost User

Dalek Dave wrote:

and yet fluctuate wildly.

Although by not as much as they perhaps should.

Dalek Dave wrote:

US, UK and Yen are National Currencies backed by Capital Assets, (Gold, Oil, Industry etc), the SFr is backed by Hard Currency, and the Euro is backed by willpower and nothing else.

OK, lets take the US. Running out of oil, having to open up Alaska. Gold? Well, there is some, but since money came off the gold standard in the 1930s ths isnt a valid statement. Industry? DOnt make me laygh. The US off chored almost all of it and what is left is on its kneews. No for the UK. OIl, yes there is quite a bit left, thank god, its the only thing keeping it alive. Mind you, its thrown away what it has had from Oil. Look how much better NOrway has used the oill revenue over the decades. As for industry in the UK, well, there are quite a few asian companies there using it as a launch pad into Europe, LG, Nissan etc. But given the way sterling has dropped in value by 30% against the Euro this obviously doesnt mean much to anyone. Yen. Well, Japan had exactly the same recesion as we are now in for much of the 90s. It didnt lookl so healthy then did it? And as for natural resources the one thing Japan gas almost nothing of is natural resources. All they have is industry, and thats been failing slowly for over 10 years. As for the Swiss Franc, are you seriously suggesting it is backed by gold? If not can you explain what you mean by hard currency? As for its stabillty then I dont suppose you have noticed its devaluaiton against the Euro. As for the Euro, which is used by almost half a billion people in one of the oldest, most resourcefull, industrial, resource rich and established regions of the world. Yes, thats really in trouble. Heres some advide, get your anti-europe head out of your pro-the monarchy arse and take a look at reality.

Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

Lost User

Dorade is a great fish eh? Really onbe of the tastiest MO. A little unusual to see it wirth almonds though. Were they in an almond suace? If so its a very Catalan sounding dish, odd to find it half way up France! Mind you, any seafood half way up France is a long way from home. I dont really get Burgundian food. Eggs in beef gravy for example, or 6 snails, ok with hods of garlic and parsley they are OK, but mussles done the same way are superb, and as for parsley ham, well, its pretty simple stuff. Mind you it sounds a lot better than the crap I had in a hotel near Barcelona in the week. Cuttle fish and chips, asparagus and ham. And they didnt even have any creme-catalan! I mean whats the point NOT having your bational desert on the menu! At least the tapas in the bar down the road was good.

Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

73Zeppelin

The dorade was fantastic. The almonds were slightly roasted and not part of a sauce. It wasn't part of their regular menu, but I agree that it is not typical Bourguignon cuisine. I agree, that I find Burgundian food hard to comprehend. It's odd stuff, not what you would interpret as traditional French cuisine. I think it's really adapted peasant dishes made into something a little more high-class. The wine was local - a premier cru - I liked it. It was red, but it went with the fish anyways (and wasn't my choice in wine).

73Zeppelin

The problem with the gold standard is that there simply isn't enough physical gold to back all those dollars. Additionally, the cost of extracting and producing a unit of gold is increasing significantly. Then there is also the problem that a currency has to be manipulated to maintain exchange rates, etc.. What you really need is money that isn't just empty emmission - it has to be backed by something that is, itself, capable of growing. This is why I have become interested in the work of a small group of economists who propose to back money by production so that when a central bank emits money it is backed by a form of output; it comes from somewhere and from something concrete. Unfortunately, their writings are mostly in French. And yes, watch those credit ratings...in fact, talk of credit ratings alone is enough to stir things up about the security of a country.

Lost User

Oakman wrote:

go back on the gold standard,

There isnt enough to go around. Unfortunately, we are stuck with what we have. Perhaps a global currency and global government are the answer.

Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

Oakman

73Zeppelin wrote:

The problem with the gold standard is that there simply isn't enough physical gold to back all those dollars.

Maybe that's less of a problem with the gold standard than it is with all those dollars? Remember I proposed to get rid of a lot of them by repudiating the national debt.

73Zeppelin wrote:

What you really need is money that isn't just empty emmission - it has to be backed by something that is, itself, capable of growing.

David Gerold at one point proposed a currency based on calories. Which, when you get away from dieting, is a measure of the potential for producing energy. In truth, I have no axe to grind about gold, except that it is rare enough to be valuable, and portable enough to be used as currency. We could go back on the seashell economy if that worked. But having dollars worth Swiss francs while Swiss francs are valued in dollars is, in my humble opinion, a scam - one that is becoming apparent. As someone on CNBC said, a receding tide reveals all the garbage.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Oakman

fat_boy wrote:

There isnt enough to go around.

The assumption in your statement is that is we have to back all our worthless currencies with gold. Repudiate the national debts; burn all the toxic assets.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Lost User

I suppose you could revalue/devalue currencies but that has its problems. Currency Devaluation and Revaluation[^] But to "Repudiate the national debt" itself is not necessarily an answer Ludwig von Mises Institute article[^] Burning those toxic assets - frankly some (the home owners etc) are going to glee with pleasure and many (the investors and consequently the taxpayers) will feel the pain of being cheated. Squaring that circle is a political nightmare.

Oakman

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

But to "Repudiate the national debt" itself is not necessarily an answer Ludwig von Mises Institute article

You and I must be getting something slightly different from the article or I misread the import of your comment. Rothbard seems to support my position almost completely. The terrible shame is that since the article was published, the public debt has grown from 4 trillion to 12 trillion (reducing the share of it held by the SSA) and we can no longer talk about the government confiscating our money through 'voluntary' taxes, but the wealth (real and imagined) of our children and our grand children. I cannot, for the life of me, imagine my grandniece thinking that she should be required to pay one red cent to cover the follies and chicanery of the last thirty years - whether it was an ill-advised war or an artificially created housing boom that was created by governmental fiat and kept going with lies and subterfuge. As Rothbard points out, expecting the inhabitants of a country that has just thrown out a corrupt and greedy regime is morally indefensible as well as realistically a waste of time. I absolutely love the idea of kicking the UN out and selling their property to start paying off the Social Security portion of the debt, and like Rothbard, I think there are a number of other governmentally-owned structures that could be sold to make sure that the folks who had money taken out of their paychecks under false pretenses get back at least what they put in. I have a particular desire to see the Kennedy Center sold off since it has always seemed to me like it belonged in France not the U.S. of A. But imagine what the interstate would bring in if we sold it off to folks who would turn it into a series of toll roads. :cool: Alternately, we could start a war with China. That would pretty much take care of about half our public debt and a fair amount of a private debt as well. The unemployment rate would drop as soon as we reinstituted the draft and simultaneously ramped up what is left of our manufacturing capability. The car manufacturers would swing into three shifts as they began building combat vehicles and Boing and McDonnel Douglas would make their home cities into boomtown, USA. Even recycling would stop being a pita and become a patriotic act.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that