Tocqueville critiques the left...

Stan Shannon

Oakman wrote:

You do understand that he was talking about Democracy, right? And was reacting to what you hold up as a golden age of Jeffersonianism? (Actually Jacksonianism.)

Clearly, he was not. He was purposefully describing the form of tyranny such societies could ultimately be vulnerable to. He otherwise merely compared and contrasted the American spirit of capitalism with the European lack thereof and the affects they had on their respective cultures.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Stan Shannon

Oakman wrote:

de Tocqueville (leaving out the "de" is like referring to WWII's CincPac as General Arthur)

Not being French, I wouldn't know.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Oakman

Stan Shannon wrote:

Not being French, I wouldn't know

Now you do. Aren't I helpful? :-D

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Oakman

Stan Shannon wrote:

Clearly, he was not.

Really? So in a book he entitled, "Democracy in America," he wasn't writing about Democracy? Or he wasn't writing about America? (I am assuming you could have no quarrel with the "in" in the title.)

Stan Shannon wrote:

He otherwise merely compared and contrasted the American spirit of capitalism with the European lack thereof and the affects they had on their respective cultures.

So when he wrote "Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom." was he talking about capitalism? And when he wrote, "I know of no country in which there is so little independence of mind and real freedom of discussion as in America," was he comparing or contrasting? But it certainly is clear that he is talking about the effect on America of democracy when he says, "It is the dissimilarities and inequalities among men which give rise to the notion of honor; as such differences become less, it grows feeble; and when they disappear, it will vanish too."

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

modified on Tuesday, March 3, 2009 10:42 PM

Tim Craig

Stan Shannon wrote:

Not being French, I wouldn't know.

One more thing in a growing long list of things you don't know...

"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke

73Zeppelin

Be sure to wipe your keyboard so the keys don't stick. But I don't think it means what you think it means...

Stan Shannon

Apparently my big mistake was trusting Jon's understanding of culture and history... Traditionally, the particule de is omitted when citing the name of a person without a preceding given name, title (baron, duc etc.), job description (général, colonel, etc.) or polite address (monsieur, madame, mademoiselle). Thus, one would say Monsieur de la Vieuville, but if calling him familiarily by his last name only, La Vieuville (note the initial capital letter); the same applies for Gérard de la Martinière, who would be called La Martinière. Similarly, Philippe de Villiers talks about the votes he receives as le vote Villiers. However, this usage is now losing ground to a more egalitarian treatment of surnames; it is, for instance, commonplace to hear people talking of De Villiers[^]

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Oakman

Stan Shannon wrote:

Apparently my big mistake was trusting Jon's understanding of culture and history...

ROFL, I wonder how long you searched for that quote. :laugh: I do note, in passing that the last line says that today's common usage is to include the prefix. Sometimes I'm not sure you read everything before jumping to a conclusion. However, I'm not sure that your aquaintance with Monsieur de Tocqueville was close enough to permit you the familiar form of address. But perhaps it was. (If you aren't sure of the difference, there was an excellent article in the American Spectator not too long ago.) See how much you are learning?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Ilion

73Zeppelin wrote:

Be sure to wipe your keyboard so the keys don't stick. But I don't think it means what you think it means...

:thumbsup: Be sure to be your typical asinine self ... even as you whine about having your asininity pointed out. :thumbsup:

Stan Shannon · modified on Tuesday, March 3, 2009 10:42 PM

I'm not argueing that he was critiqueing American democracy. But the passage quoted was not an indictment of American democracy as it existed at the time, it was a damned accurate prediction about what it was vulnerable to becoming. The analysis is exactly what we have today, not what the country was in 1835.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Stan Shannon

I always do.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Stan Shannon

Oakman wrote:

I wonder how long you searched for that quote. I do note, in passing that the last line says that today's common usage is to include the prefix. Sometimes I'm not sure you read everything before jumping to a conclusion.

Actually, I woke up last night thinking about your comparision to 'MacArthur' and thought 'that can't be correct'. So I googled for 'french names' and 'de' before I went to work. I didn't think 'de' was equivalent to Celtic naming traditions. It just didn't make any sense that a Romantic culture with ancient Germanic ties would have had similar naming traditions to the Celts. SO I did a little research and, once again, you were wrong.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Oakman

Stan Shannon wrote:

SO I did a little research and, once again, you were wrong.

Apparently you still haven't read what you copied, or tried to understand the difference between the familar and formal modes of address. But enough;s enough. If it comforts you to think that it's okay to drop part of de Tocqueville's name, I really don't care very much. Nor does he, at least not now.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Oakman

Stan Shannon wrote:

The analysis is exactly what we have today, not what the country was in 1835.

But, if you had read more of the book, you would have seen, I think, that he was saying that America was already in the process of trading in its freedom. You really need to read more than just a couple of paragraphs before you can talk about his oeuvre.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Stan Shannon

if despotism came to be established in the democratic nations of our day, it would have other characteristics He is clearly stating the intent of his comments. "If despotism came" is pretty damnd clear. And the world we live in today is absolute proof that he was correct. Despostism came to be established.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Stan Shannon

I read the book in College, so it probably is time to read it again. However, I'm not disagreeing with your analysis, that he saw many potential problems with our society in general. But his overall critique is not entirely negative. He saw many advantages to the structure of American society and government contrasted to that of France. But the part quoted is a dead on description of our current civilization.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Oakman

Stan Shannon wrote:

But his overall critique is not entirely negative.

Agreed

Stan Shannon wrote:

But the part quoted is a dead on description of our current civilization.

Agreed - along with the aphorism about honor.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Tim Craig

Oakman wrote:

I'm not sure that your aquaintance with Monsieur de Tocqueville was close enough to permit you the familiar form of address. But perhaps it was.

I'm sure Stan thinks he could refer to him with tu rather than vous. But then, maybe he doesn't know the difference. :suss:

"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke

fred_

Stan Shannon wrote:

This is good stuff...[^]

Interestingly , the DoD blocks thaty link :confused: