Capitalism? Nah, Moneterism.
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I posit that we need to be protectionist. We need to reintroduce the tariffs that we had up til this last few decades. We need a manufacturing base. Korea, Japan, China, all have tariffs and protect their markets. And they are now eating our lunch. What we have now is not capitalism, as we aren't aggregating capital. We're aggregating money. So instead of building true wealth, really we're just trying to get rich. What is your position on tariffs, and why? And do you think its protectionism? And why is that bad? Free trade is slowly destroying what wealth we had. Case in point, we used to be the leading creditor in the world, and now we're one of the leading debtors. And I posit also that Reagan ran up this debt. By cutting governmental revenue while not cutting spending. And right through Clinton and both Bush's we've continued this trend to where now we are merely consumers specializing in debt awaiting this great experiment to fail. How can you say you love this country and be against any kind of "protectionist" view of reinstating tariffs? That's my rant for the day.
This statement is false
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I posit that we need to be protectionist. We need to reintroduce the tariffs that we had up til this last few decades. We need a manufacturing base. Korea, Japan, China, all have tariffs and protect their markets. And they are now eating our lunch. What we have now is not capitalism, as we aren't aggregating capital. We're aggregating money. So instead of building true wealth, really we're just trying to get rich. What is your position on tariffs, and why? And do you think its protectionism? And why is that bad? Free trade is slowly destroying what wealth we had. Case in point, we used to be the leading creditor in the world, and now we're one of the leading debtors. And I posit also that Reagan ran up this debt. By cutting governmental revenue while not cutting spending. And right through Clinton and both Bush's we've continued this trend to where now we are merely consumers specializing in debt awaiting this great experiment to fail. How can you say you love this country and be against any kind of "protectionist" view of reinstating tariffs? That's my rant for the day.
This statement is false
This world, is in a fairly deep recession. Protectionism is an irresponsible policy that will hasten another Depression that may be as deep, if not deeper than the Great Depression, and perhaps just as lengthy. So, why do you want to go down this dangerous road called "Protectionism"?
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I posit that we need to be protectionist. We need to reintroduce the tariffs that we had up til this last few decades. We need a manufacturing base. Korea, Japan, China, all have tariffs and protect their markets. And they are now eating our lunch. What we have now is not capitalism, as we aren't aggregating capital. We're aggregating money. So instead of building true wealth, really we're just trying to get rich. What is your position on tariffs, and why? And do you think its protectionism? And why is that bad? Free trade is slowly destroying what wealth we had. Case in point, we used to be the leading creditor in the world, and now we're one of the leading debtors. And I posit also that Reagan ran up this debt. By cutting governmental revenue while not cutting spending. And right through Clinton and both Bush's we've continued this trend to where now we are merely consumers specializing in debt awaiting this great experiment to fail. How can you say you love this country and be against any kind of "protectionist" view of reinstating tariffs? That's my rant for the day.
This statement is false
Firstly: capitalism is not the act of "aggregating capital". Secondly: tariffs will do more harm than good. Protectionism will just lead to retaliatory tariffs. Increased manufacturing base but less exports means bigger trade deficits. The U.S. has a preference for consuming foreign, not domestically, produced goods. China and the rest are eating your lunch not because you lack some kind of protectionist policy, but rather because you outsourced all your manufacturing and production to countries that can do it cheaper. You sold yourselves out. You're dependent on foreign energy sources, foreign production and foreign demand for US debt. Good luck with those tariffs.
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Firstly: capitalism is not the act of "aggregating capital". Secondly: tariffs will do more harm than good. Protectionism will just lead to retaliatory tariffs. Increased manufacturing base but less exports means bigger trade deficits. The U.S. has a preference for consuming foreign, not domestically, produced goods. China and the rest are eating your lunch not because you lack some kind of protectionist policy, but rather because you outsourced all your manufacturing and production to countries that can do it cheaper. You sold yourselves out. You're dependent on foreign energy sources, foreign production and foreign demand for US debt. Good luck with those tariffs.
73Zeppelin wrote:
capitalism is not the act of "aggregating capital".
That's true. But at the same time, I think he's trying to point out that we have, for quite awhile been trying to get along without any capital, just credit. By leveraging every ounce of real capital into ten ounces of credit, the banks have gone down the road of no return. By borrowing money for a house they couldn't afford, consumers have gone down that same road, and by writing insurance policies that paid off like they were casino jackpots, they created a a failure is its own reward mentality.
73Zeppelin wrote:
Secondly: tariffs will do more harm than good. Protectionism will just lead to retaliatory tariffs.
And how can that hurt a country with a horrible deficit of payments problem? Other countries will tax the pittance they buy from us because we are taxing the flood of good that are coming into our country? Forgive me, Zep, but we should care, why?
73Zeppelin wrote:
You sold yourselves out. You're dependent on foreign energy sources, foreign production and foreign demand for US debt.
You're absolutely right, but what better way of encouraging the development of our own energy resources, and our own production than making foreign goods more expensive? Why shouldn't we say that since countries like China and India (among others) pay subsistence wages to millions of people who might as well be slaves, we will add taxes to the cost of those goods rather than continuing to subsidize slavery, and economic exploitation similar to that of the middle ages?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
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This world, is in a fairly deep recession. Protectionism is an irresponsible policy that will hasten another Depression that may be as deep, if not deeper than the Great Depression, and perhaps just as lengthy. So, why do you want to go down this dangerous road called "Protectionism"?
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Firstly: capitalism is not the act of "aggregating capital". Secondly: tariffs will do more harm than good. Protectionism will just lead to retaliatory tariffs. Increased manufacturing base but less exports means bigger trade deficits. The U.S. has a preference for consuming foreign, not domestically, produced goods. China and the rest are eating your lunch not because you lack some kind of protectionist policy, but rather because you outsourced all your manufacturing and production to countries that can do it cheaper. You sold yourselves out. You're dependent on foreign energy sources, foreign production and foreign demand for US debt. Good luck with those tariffs.
73Zeppelin wrote:
Protectionism will just lead to retaliatory tariffs.
Other countries already have tariffs that we don't. Which other successful industrialized nations practice "free" trade with no protectionist tariffs? Seriously, name one.
This statement is false
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73Zeppelin wrote:
capitalism is not the act of "aggregating capital".
That's true. But at the same time, I think he's trying to point out that we have, for quite awhile been trying to get along without any capital, just credit. By leveraging every ounce of real capital into ten ounces of credit, the banks have gone down the road of no return. By borrowing money for a house they couldn't afford, consumers have gone down that same road, and by writing insurance policies that paid off like they were casino jackpots, they created a a failure is its own reward mentality.
73Zeppelin wrote:
Secondly: tariffs will do more harm than good. Protectionism will just lead to retaliatory tariffs.
And how can that hurt a country with a horrible deficit of payments problem? Other countries will tax the pittance they buy from us because we are taxing the flood of good that are coming into our country? Forgive me, Zep, but we should care, why?
73Zeppelin wrote:
You sold yourselves out. You're dependent on foreign energy sources, foreign production and foreign demand for US debt.
You're absolutely right, but what better way of encouraging the development of our own energy resources, and our own production than making foreign goods more expensive? Why shouldn't we say that since countries like China and India (among others) pay subsistence wages to millions of people who might as well be slaves, we will add taxes to the cost of those goods rather than continuing to subsidize slavery, and economic exploitation similar to that of the middle ages?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
Yep, you nailed my position.
Oakman wrote:
Why shouldn't we say that since countries like China and India (among others) pay subsistence wages to millions of people who might as well be slaves
Not to mention that these same nation have the tariffs in place that we are calling protectionism. China does. It puts us at a severe disadvantage in the labor market to begin with.
This statement is false
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73Zeppelin wrote:
Protectionism will just lead to retaliatory tariffs.
Other countries already have tariffs that we don't. Which other successful industrialized nations practice "free" trade with no protectionist tariffs? Seriously, name one.
This statement is false
The United States, just like European Union countries practice a variant of free trade, but this doesn't mean that USA and/or EU are innocent of some protectionist measures, they are both guilty. The World Trade Organization http://www.wto.org/ [^] have a vast amount of relevant data for you to absorb.
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That's the prevailing meme, for sure. But is that really so? I'd say, that removing this protectionism contributed to this recession.
This statement is false
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Suggest you read this UNITED STATES BARRIERS TO TRADE AND INVESTMENT[^]
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I posit that we need to be protectionist. We need to reintroduce the tariffs that we had up til this last few decades. We need a manufacturing base. Korea, Japan, China, all have tariffs and protect their markets. And they are now eating our lunch. What we have now is not capitalism, as we aren't aggregating capital. We're aggregating money. So instead of building true wealth, really we're just trying to get rich. What is your position on tariffs, and why? And do you think its protectionism? And why is that bad? Free trade is slowly destroying what wealth we had. Case in point, we used to be the leading creditor in the world, and now we're one of the leading debtors. And I posit also that Reagan ran up this debt. By cutting governmental revenue while not cutting spending. And right through Clinton and both Bush's we've continued this trend to where now we are merely consumers specializing in debt awaiting this great experiment to fail. How can you say you love this country and be against any kind of "protectionist" view of reinstating tariffs? That's my rant for the day.
This statement is false
There is a reason why Empires have defined most of the history of human civilization - ultimately the only way to truly protect your economy is to simply go out and kill and eat the competition. Short of doing that, there is really nothing much the top dog can do but try to maintain the most well balanced financial system possible. If you are not going to go kick ass, you have to be as economically accomodating to the lesser nations as possible. Tariffs will help in some ways, and hurt in other ways - but the real problems will always manifest themselves somehow, and we will slowly become ever less wealthy as the rest of the world slowly becomes more wealthy. It is inevitable. The reason the us has been historicall wealthy was not tariffs, it was because we had acquired massive amounts of resources very cheaply and had tons of cheap labor. Than the rest of the industrialized world decided to obliterate itself in a world war which left us as the only stable economy on the planet. We should have conqured them all when we had the opportunity, the motivation and the means of doing so.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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The United States, just like European Union countries practice a variant of free trade, but this doesn't mean that USA and/or EU are innocent of some protectionist measures, they are both guilty. The World Trade Organization http://www.wto.org/ [^] have a vast amount of relevant data for you to absorb.
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The United States, just like European Union countries practice a variant of free trade, but this doesn't mean that USA and/or EU are innocent of some protectionist measures, they are both guilty. The World Trade Organization http://www.wto.org/ [^] have a vast amount of relevant data for you to absorb.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
The United States, just like European Union countries practice a variant of free trade, but this doesn't mean that USA and/or EU are innocent of some protectionist measures
Ironically you picked two bodies who both have balance of payments problems and would probably benefit by being more rather than less protectionist. Let us rather, talk about one of the US's major trading partners - where non-citizens are not even allowed to own property (49% is ok) but which weekly demands that we think up even more ways of shipping our manufacturing business to them (besides NAFTA and CAFTA and SHAFTYAH)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
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Firstly: capitalism is not the act of "aggregating capital". Secondly: tariffs will do more harm than good. Protectionism will just lead to retaliatory tariffs. Increased manufacturing base but less exports means bigger trade deficits. The U.S. has a preference for consuming foreign, not domestically, produced goods. China and the rest are eating your lunch not because you lack some kind of protectionist policy, but rather because you outsourced all your manufacturing and production to countries that can do it cheaper. You sold yourselves out. You're dependent on foreign energy sources, foreign production and foreign demand for US debt. Good luck with those tariffs.
-
The United States, just like European Union countries practice a variant of free trade, but this doesn't mean that USA and/or EU are innocent of some protectionist measures, they are both guilty. The World Trade Organization http://www.wto.org/ [^] have a vast amount of relevant data for you to absorb.
-
There is a reason why Empires have defined most of the history of human civilization - ultimately the only way to truly protect your economy is to simply go out and kill and eat the competition. Short of doing that, there is really nothing much the top dog can do but try to maintain the most well balanced financial system possible. If you are not going to go kick ass, you have to be as economically accomodating to the lesser nations as possible. Tariffs will help in some ways, and hurt in other ways - but the real problems will always manifest themselves somehow, and we will slowly become ever less wealthy as the rest of the world slowly becomes more wealthy. It is inevitable. The reason the us has been historicall wealthy was not tariffs, it was because we had acquired massive amounts of resources very cheaply and had tons of cheap labor. Than the rest of the industrialized world decided to obliterate itself in a world war which left us as the only stable economy on the planet. We should have conqured them all when we had the opportunity, the motivation and the means of doing so.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
If you are not going to go kick ass, you have to be as economically accomodating to the lesser nations as possible.
Why? Being economically accomodating ultimately means being eaten alive, doesn't it?
Stan Shannon wrote:
We should have conqured them all when we had the opportunity, the motivation and the means of doing so.
Why don't we give Europe and Africa to Russia, India and the far east to China, and we'll take the Americas?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
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There is a reason why Empires have defined most of the history of human civilization - ultimately the only way to truly protect your economy is to simply go out and kill and eat the competition. Short of doing that, there is really nothing much the top dog can do but try to maintain the most well balanced financial system possible. If you are not going to go kick ass, you have to be as economically accomodating to the lesser nations as possible. Tariffs will help in some ways, and hurt in other ways - but the real problems will always manifest themselves somehow, and we will slowly become ever less wealthy as the rest of the world slowly becomes more wealthy. It is inevitable. The reason the us has been historicall wealthy was not tariffs, it was because we had acquired massive amounts of resources very cheaply and had tons of cheap labor. Than the rest of the industrialized world decided to obliterate itself in a world war which left us as the only stable economy on the planet. We should have conqured them all when we had the opportunity, the motivation and the means of doing so.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
The tariffs serve to protect our manufacturing base. Removing those reduces our labor to a race to the bottom. So, I think it is directly related to the removal of tariffs that started with Reagan. Once labor was available elsewhere without the balancing factor of tariffs, it was gobbled up. Jobs automatically are lost here. No need to conquer the world. Just reinstate the tariffs we had in place for 200 years.
This statement is false
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Actually the EU just installed their own tariffs for bio-diesels. So, even the EU is being protectionist.
This statement is false
Synaptrik wrote:
So, even the EU is being protectionist.
And the United States isn't> Well from that PDF above, I copy this [quote] Despite the substantial tariff reduction and elimination agreed in the Uruguay Round, the U.S. retains a number of significant duties and tariff peaks in various sectors including food products, textiles, footwear, leather goods, ceramics, glass, and railway cars. [/quote] I'll not get into a spitting contest as to who is the biggest protectionist country on Earth. None of us are whiter than white in this respect. But, if there is to be a reduction in tariffs etc., then everybody wins. But if not, then everybody can be a loser, you and me included, and more so those in the developing world.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
If you are not going to go kick ass, you have to be as economically accomodating to the lesser nations as possible.
Why? Being economically accomodating ultimately means being eaten alive, doesn't it?
Stan Shannon wrote:
We should have conqured them all when we had the opportunity, the motivation and the means of doing so.
Why don't we give Europe and Africa to Russia, India and the far east to China, and we'll take the Americas?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
Oakman wrote:
Being economically accomodating ultimately means being eaten alive, doesn't it?
Probably.
Oakman wrote:
hy don't we give Europe and Africa to Russia, India and the far east to China, and we'll take the Americas?
I'm pretty sure that would leave Russia and China much better off. I would give the east to India and Europe and Africa to England. They are more trustworthy.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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The tariffs serve to protect our manufacturing base. Removing those reduces our labor to a race to the bottom. So, I think it is directly related to the removal of tariffs that started with Reagan. Once labor was available elsewhere without the balancing factor of tariffs, it was gobbled up. Jobs automatically are lost here. No need to conquer the world. Just reinstate the tariffs we had in place for 200 years.
This statement is false
How much are you willing to pay for that industrial base? When you are paying a hundred times more for what you need to live than someone in China pays, are you still going to think it was such a good idea? At a minimum, protectionist tariffs would require getting rid of labor unions, otherwise they would be empowered to strangle the economy.
Synaptrik wrote:
No need to conquer the world. Just reinstate the tariffs we had in place for 200 years.
Go ahead and try it. You'll find out why its a bad idea. Why do you think the Romans didn't just raise tariffs rather than conquering other countries?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.