A fool-proof plan for economic recovery: [modified]

Stan Shannon

Synaptrik wrote:

Put the tariffs back in place and watch the cheap manufacturing sites whither.

:laugh: ... and the expensive domestic manufacturing sites grow.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Chris Austin

Synaptrik wrote:

And, you don't see a relationship between the two?

Of course I do, it's simple supply and demand.

Synaptrik wrote:

It was thrust upon us by Reagan and Clinton.

Not that I agree with your thesis but Try Nixon. It was under his administration that this whole thing really picked up speed. He moved us to a fiat currency and his agriculture policies started the rise of the huge agribusiness conglomerates that now dominate our food supply.

Synaptrik wrote:

hey consume because its available.

I see you slept through Economics 101. There wouldn't be a supply if there wasn't a demand. It's the same reason the boneheads in D.C. will never win the 'war on drugs'. It's pointless to attack the supply without addressing the demand. US based manufacturing would not have headed to Mexico and then China, and now Thailand and other cheap labor markets had there not been market demand for cheaper shit. Do you realize how much it costs to build a manufacturing plant...billions of dollars; billions. You think people that are making money hand over fist as a result of this are stupid enough to invest that kind of money if there wasn't a demand? You want manufacturing back into this country? Then be willing to pay for it. Don't complain when you have to pay an extra $200 for a computer monitor.

Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

modified on Friday, March 6, 2009 9:01 PM

Oakman

Stan Shannon wrote:

... and the expensive domestic manufacturing sites grow.

Now you're getting it!

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Oakman · modified on Friday, March 6, 2009 9:01 PM

Chris Austin wrote:

Don't complain when you have to pay an extra $200 for a computer monitor.

For one that would last twice as long? No problemo.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Chris Austin

Oakman wrote:

For one that would last twice as long? No problemo.

Hell yeah. I still watch TV on a 13 year old Sony that hasn't begun to show signs of having issues. I think we paid what seemed a ridiculous sum at the time for it. But, it has proven to be worth every penny. We really need to get past the pennies per unit shipped profit mindset. It relies way to much on the idea of continued growth.

Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

Oakman

Chris Austin wrote:

Hell yeah. I still watch TV on a 13 year old Sony

Yep. There really have been only two reasons to throw out your old TV: Color, and High Def. Of course, for some folks, size matters.

Chris Austin wrote:

We really need to get past the pennies per unit shipped profit mindset. It relies way to much on the idea of continued growth.

And stop buying throw-away goods, whether they are American-made or foreign. Hell, I wouldn't mind if we held onto operating systems and development platforms for more than three years at a time. I wonder how long it'll be before someone says we can get peanuts so much cheaper by importing them south of the border, and processing them with illegals in sweatshops.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

Synaptrik · modified on Friday, March 6, 2009 9:01 PM

Chris Austin wrote:

I see you slept through Economics 101. There wouldn't be a supply if there wasn't a demand.

Which really brings us back to my main point. That an economy is driven by demand, which equates to labor, which needs a manufacturing base to really thrive.

Chris Austin wrote:

You want manufacturing back into this country? Then be willing to pay for it. Don't complain when you have to pay an extra $200 for a computer monitor.

I've never complained about it. And I usually opt for quality over quantity before evaluating price.

This statement is false

Ilion

Chris Austin wrote:

Now, I see where it was going. Cheers.

It seems to me that you don't yet see[^].

Lost User

Oakman wrote:

throw-away goods

If you are private individual, you are going to want that item to last as long as it can unless you are the type which demands the latest greatest thing the moment it is released. Quality is important but quality is expensive to design and manufacture. Take a television, made with quality parts and quality manufacturing principles will last an awfully lot longer than a television assembled with cheaper parts and production techniques where quality assurance is an afterthought. Thus the later TV will attract a lower price at the retailer but its life will be short in comparison to the expensive higher quality make/model. And to the time when it fails, often it is cheaper to replace rather than repair. And landfill sites fill with such stuff and the problems continue. Regarding corporations and businesses in general, any object is an asset, they use a depreciated value of an object so that after a period of time the depreciated value of the asset becomes £nil or very close to £nil and is tax efficient to replace. So 5 years for a piece of office equipment and 3 years for a motor vehicle is the norm in this accounting practice. And more so if the objects are subjected to some leasehold agreement as the decision to replace is taken out of your hands.

Stan Shannon

Yes, and they will grow until we can no longer afford our own manufactured goods. ANd the end result will be exactly the same thing.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Stan Shannon

Synaptrik wrote:

That an economy is driven by demand, which equates to labor, which needs a manufacturing base to really thrive.

No, it equates to free market capitalism. If those who actually own and are invested in the production, the risk takers, have full control over all business related decisions - including the price of labor - than that labor is far more likely to produce a profit which grows the national wealth. That is the only way to grow national wealth (aside from conquering other countries, that is). Anything the state does to try to artificially manage that process (aside from simple infrastructure maintenance and law enforcement) is counter-productive to the goal of growing a national economy.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Stan Shannon

Oakman wrote:

For one that would last twice as long? No problemo.

What makes you assume that quality would be better?

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Lost User

Stan Shannon wrote:

price of labor

Depends if the cost is a fixed cost or a variable cost as shown on the accounting documents.

Lost User

Quality is subjective. This you might find an interesting definition ... Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF) MTBF is a basic measure of reliability for repairable items. It can be described as the number of hours that pass before a component, assembly, or system fails. It is a commonly-used variable in reliability and maintainability analysis. And can be calculated as the inverse of the failure rate for constant failure rate systems. For example: If a component has a failure rate of 2 failures per million hours, the MTBF would be the inverse of that failure rate. MTBF = (1,000,000 hours) / (2 failures) = 500,000 hours Mean Time To Failure (MTTF) MTTF is a basic measure of reliability for non-repairable systems. It is the mean time expected until the first failure of a piece of equipment. MTTF is a statistical value and is meant to be the mean over a long period of time and large number of units. For constant failure rate systems, MTTF is the inverse of the failure rate. If failure rate is in failures/million hours, MTTF = 1,000,000 / Failure Rate for components with exponential distributions. Technically MTBF should be used only in reference to repairable items, while MTTF should be used for non-repairable items. However, MTBF is commonly used for both repairable and non-repairable items.

Stan Shannon

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

Depends if the cost is a fixed cost or a variable cost as shown on the accounting documents.

No it doesnt. It only matters that it is set by those who understand what it is actually worth.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Stan Shannon

Which has nothing to do with my question. In a world where jobs are protected from foreign labor and internal competitive pressure, which is precisely what we would have unless we eliminated the labor unions, price will increase without limit, and quality will decrease.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

73Zeppelin

I have to agree with you, Stan. Companies are operated for profit - in a society with high import tariffs, there is absolutely no reason for domestic companies to produce quality goods - in fact, there is every incentive for them to produce lower quality goods and charge a higher price for them. They know that there are high import barriers so they can get high prices for lower quality goods and pocket the difference in profit.

Lost User

Then take a look at "Profit & Loss Forecasts". Labour costs fall into essentially two categories. Fixed AND variable. Variable labour costings that appear in said P&L is in the cost of Manufacture. Piecework is a kind of variable labour cost. Fixed labour costs by the definition of the word "fixed" don't often change these you can equate to office staff.

73Zeppelin

Richard - if a domestic company knows that a foreign company has a high barrier for import, why would the domestic company produce higher quality products? That costs more, so the domestic company would have every incentive to produce lower quality goods and receive a higher price for them. Companies are profit-maximizing and have every incentive to lower quality for increased price knowing the foreign competition does not have equal access to the domestic market.

Lost User

Companies do indeed operate for profit. But if the MTBF is too low, this is tantamount to defrauding the buying public. And the buying public have long memories. Yet if you attempt some degree of protectionism, you could be substituting higher quality imports for lower quality "home grown" and subsequently your distant profit (x years down road) could suffer because of the view by your buying public that the product is a lemon. So MTBF is important if you are striving for quality and happy customers.