The cause of religion
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Well David, you made it >10min, so congrats on that. Now, on to the (heh, i'll make an effort) serious reply: The Merriam-Webster OnLine Dictionary defines religion:
Main Entry: re·li·gion Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n Function: noun Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back Date: 13th century 1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re·li·gion·less adjectiveLet's look at 1 b (which references religious faith) and 2 (which references religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices). The relevant definition of religious most likely here is:
1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity
What's the point? Simple: although many are, there's no requirement that a religion have anything to do with a god or gods. If i believe that the earth is flat, and we must be careful not to unbalance it lest we bruise the backs of the four elephants carrying it through nothingness on the back of a giant turtle... ...or in the existance of an almighty creator, who's universe we may find useful to poke and prod and examine, but will never fully understand... ...or that Canola Oil is the root of all that is bad in life, and must be eliminated at all cost... ...or that the Universe is expanding from the consumption of too much Cosmic Beer and Cheese... ...it's all religion. But you already know this. So again, what is my point? Wait... M-W defines atheism as:
Main Entry: athe·ism Pronunciation: 'A-thE-"i-z&m Function: noun Etymology: Middle French athé
Shog9 wrote: Atheism is a belief system. Christianity is a belief system. Buddism is a belief system. Janism is a belief system. Medicine is a belief system. What about Jediism?:-D ..or somnambulism:~ BW {insert witty/thought-provoking saying here}
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Well David, you made it >10min, so congrats on that. Now, on to the (heh, i'll make an effort) serious reply: The Merriam-Webster OnLine Dictionary defines religion:
Main Entry: re·li·gion Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n Function: noun Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back Date: 13th century 1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re·li·gion·less adjectiveLet's look at 1 b (which references religious faith) and 2 (which references religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices). The relevant definition of religious most likely here is:
1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity
What's the point? Simple: although many are, there's no requirement that a religion have anything to do with a god or gods. If i believe that the earth is flat, and we must be careful not to unbalance it lest we bruise the backs of the four elephants carrying it through nothingness on the back of a giant turtle... ...or in the existance of an almighty creator, who's universe we may find useful to poke and prod and examine, but will never fully understand... ...or that Canola Oil is the root of all that is bad in life, and must be eliminated at all cost... ...or that the Universe is expanding from the consumption of too much Cosmic Beer and Cheese... ...it's all religion. But you already know this. So again, what is my point? Wait... M-W defines atheism as:
Main Entry: athe·ism Pronunciation: 'A-thE-"i-z&m Function: noun Etymology: Middle French athé
First, nice formatting and analogies ! Second, Shog9 wrote: Yes, religion will cease to exist, when the nature of humans is fundamentally altered. No one fails to believe in breathing afterall, at least not for long. Remember your first definition, well when humanity is no longer humanity, we will no longer have human religions. However this does not exclude the existance of non human religions either based on human religions or not. Why would it ? Shog9 wrote: I'll not be listening to anyone who tells me i'm living my life as a slave to a religion; slavery is in the mind of the slave. A lot of stuff is state of mind, but it appears very few people understand that. Freedom, Health and Wealth are all states of mind as well. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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Let me just say a couple things: Of course I believe that "I am right and you are wrong". I would look like a total fool to say "I am wrong and you are right, but I will believe my way anyway". But I only use this distinction when comparing my faith (Christian) with other faiths (say Islam, Hindu, Buddist, etc), but not when comparing my church (Dutch Calvinist) with other Christian churches (Catholic, Anglican, Baptist, etc). We are all Christian, and to me that is all that matters. I do not believe that our minor differences are all that important to God. Can I prove that I am right, No I can't, but that is what I believe. I do not say that all athiests (which in my view is a religious faith as valid as any other, they are just not organised into corporate "churches") are "missing" something. Most are very happy with what they believe and leave it that. I just say that those who constantly attack "religious" people because of their faith ( be those attacks physical, verbal, or just messages like yours on message boards) are obviously trying to justify their atheism either to themselves or those around them. If they were secure in their beliefs, then what would it matter to them what other people believe or say. After all, in the end we all just die and nothing else matters anyway. There, I said my bit in response to your post. If you want to learn more about what I belive and why, then make contact with a church near you. I am sure there are many kind and caring people there who can help you. If all you want is to try to insult "religious" people because they are "stupid" enough to not have thought things through and come to the same conclusions as you, then there is no point in discussing this any further.
CPUA 0x5041 Sonork 100.11743 Chicken Little "So it can now be written in stone as a testament to humanities achievments "PJ did Pi at CP"." Colin Davies Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
PJ Arends wrote: Of course I believe that "I am right and you are wrong". I would look like a total fool to say "I am wrong and you are right, but I will believe my way anyway". EXACTLY !! I said so much in a recent post, and was vilified, what special powers do you have? :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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I don't agree with you on atheism being a "single minded" idea. Atheism is based on reason and logic. And as we all know, we all reason fairly different. Thus we could end up with quite a few variations on atheism. Religion is like despotism. There's someone or a group of people telling you what to think about life and everything that comes with it. And if you don't, you will forever burn in hell (or something appropriate with respect to the religion in question). Atheism gives you the freedom to make up your own mind. Preferred storyline: - I am your father. Search your feelings and you'll know it's the truth. Together we can rule this galaxy like father and son. - Ok dad. Let's kick some butt!
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Atheism is based on reason and logic. IMHO: I don't believe we have observed enough data and collated enough information on the Universe to substatiate that. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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Shog9 wrote: Atheism is a belief system. Christianity is a belief system. Buddism is a belief system. Janism is a belief system. Medicine is a belief system. What about Jediism?:-D ..or somnambulism:~ BW {insert witty/thought-provoking saying here}
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First, nice formatting and analogies ! Second, Shog9 wrote: Yes, religion will cease to exist, when the nature of humans is fundamentally altered. No one fails to believe in breathing afterall, at least not for long. Remember your first definition, well when humanity is no longer humanity, we will no longer have human religions. However this does not exclude the existance of non human religions either based on human religions or not. Why would it ? Shog9 wrote: I'll not be listening to anyone who tells me i'm living my life as a slave to a religion; slavery is in the mind of the slave. A lot of stuff is state of mind, but it appears very few people understand that. Freedom, Health and Wealth are all states of mind as well. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Colin^Davies wrote: However this does not exclude the existance of non human religions either based on human religions or not. Hmm, i guess that's so. Generally, i only consider Life as it relates to humans, forgetting humans are not the extent of Life. Colin^Davies wrote: Freedom, Health and Wealth are all states of mind as well. Very true. And as such it is dangerous (though far too easy) to let others control your perception of them.
---------------- Shog9 ---------------- ------- Drink Coca-Cola ------- ---- Use SciTE ----
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Shog9 wrote: brianwelsch wrote: somnambulism Hmm... Not sure where you're going with that one. I'm not sure either anymore, actually. Something about poor sleep habits, and it being an -ism word. :zzz:I don't know BW {insert witty/thought-provoking saying here}
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Let me just say a couple things: Of course I believe that "I am right and you are wrong". I would look like a total fool to say "I am wrong and you are right, but I will believe my way anyway". But I only use this distinction when comparing my faith (Christian) with other faiths (say Islam, Hindu, Buddist, etc), but not when comparing my church (Dutch Calvinist) with other Christian churches (Catholic, Anglican, Baptist, etc). We are all Christian, and to me that is all that matters. I do not believe that our minor differences are all that important to God. Can I prove that I am right, No I can't, but that is what I believe. I do not say that all athiests (which in my view is a religious faith as valid as any other, they are just not organised into corporate "churches") are "missing" something. Most are very happy with what they believe and leave it that. I just say that those who constantly attack "religious" people because of their faith ( be those attacks physical, verbal, or just messages like yours on message boards) are obviously trying to justify their atheism either to themselves or those around them. If they were secure in their beliefs, then what would it matter to them what other people believe or say. After all, in the end we all just die and nothing else matters anyway. There, I said my bit in response to your post. If you want to learn more about what I belive and why, then make contact with a church near you. I am sure there are many kind and caring people there who can help you. If all you want is to try to insult "religious" people because they are "stupid" enough to not have thought things through and come to the same conclusions as you, then there is no point in discussing this any further.
CPUA 0x5041 Sonork 100.11743 Chicken Little "So it can now be written in stone as a testament to humanities achievments "PJ did Pi at CP"." Colin Davies Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
PJ Arends wrote: If all you want is to try to insult "religious" people because they are "stupid" enough to not have thought things through and come to the same conclusions as you, then there is no point in discussing this any further. Well said.
Jason Henderson
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"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston Churchill -
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Atheism is based on reason and logic. IMHO: I don't believe we have observed enough data and collated enough information on the Universe to substatiate that. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
yet in my HO, we have. amazing isn't it, how two people looking at the exact same thing can come to different conclusions? it's amazing humanity has made it this far. -c
"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." --Colin Powell
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yet in my HO, we have. amazing isn't it, how two people looking at the exact same thing can come to different conclusions? it's amazing humanity has made it this far. -c
"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." --Colin Powell
Chris Losinger wrote: it's amazing humanity has made it this far. Well I could say that it's probably only for Gods will. But I won't as it I might inflame the debate, so I'll keep my opinion to myself. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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Chris Losinger wrote: it's amazing humanity has made it this far. Well I could say that it's probably only for Gods will. But I won't as it I might inflame the debate, so I'll keep my opinion to myself. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Colin^Davies wrote: it's probably only for Gods will that's some wacky god that makes you think you're smart but arranges the world to prove you wrong at every turn, like a rat in a glass maze. but, to each his own. -c
"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." --Colin Powell, not talking about his boss
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Chris Losinger wrote: it's amazing humanity has made it this far. Well I could say that it's probably only for Gods will. But I won't as it I might inflame the debate, so I'll keep my opinion to myself. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Colin^Davies wrote: I'll keep my opinion to myself Now that's new:-)
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Uh oh... here we go again. :) This is posted here in the hope it will last more than ten minutes at the top of the page. Food for thought: there are literally thousands of diferent religious beliefs to hold faith for but only one athiest belief. Now logically (mathematically) that would make athiesm being the correct view impossible, but the fact there are an infinite number of religious beliefs (everyone is open to interpret them differently) also means that the chance of one of them being correct is infinitismal too. Instead of stating "I am right and you are wrong" (which incidentally every human being believes totally), try asking why are there so many religious views. Incidentally I am not being contradictory; read on. You will see quite quickly that all religious faith is based on three core concepts: - humanity (usually with the promise of infinite ecstasy at the end and always based on living as a part of a functioning community) - forgiveness (it is never too late to turn back - aka. get out clause) - death (including justifications for pain, suffering, and a fear of nothingness) If you can come up with a better set of concepts for people to conclude on to help them UNDERSTAND some of the most basic elements of life (and remember understanding is what drives us to seek knowledge) -- well I and a large porition of the world would love to hear them. Even truely ancient civilisations had their own religions formed from these same concepts - just as the relatively modern civilisations (last four millenia) have created their own religions, and just as the current generations are doing the same ($cientology, [insert wacky American TV-based religion here], etc). They are all the only true religion. Unless you believe otherwise of course. Osama bin Laden uses his religious faith to justify his life and death, and seeks forgiveness from his version of a god -- this is no different to anyone else holding any religions faith. Even *you* if you hold any. This is a good example for athiests to use to place these points, though typically it angers others to the point of making it unusable. What always gets me is when religious people - not all, but a sizable quantity - believe athiests to either be "missing" something or in some way barbaric. I'll never understand why they should draw those conclusions; in fact I could argue the opposite in more than a few cases. The root beliefs of the core concepts (the emboldend bits above) are
David Wulff wrote: Religion will only end when the understanding and acceptance of these core concepts is common to every individual on Earth -- and then it will end, though it may never happen due to the beast called human nature which does not like to admit to failures on such a basic level. Those that are already there have no need to seek answers elsewhere, and those that have tamed their beast in this conquest find themselves stronger in their lives and beliefs without the embelishment. Religion will end only when people no longer find it necessary to see themselves as superior to other human beings. It is too often the only thing we have to justify our attempts to subjugate other peoples, if only in our own small minds. Rather than focusing on the minutiae that separates one religious school of thought from another, I prefer to concentrate on those values which they hold in common, that seeming, logically, to be the part most likely to be truth. When one incorporates those core values into a life, a personal ethos, then there ceases to be Religion, apart and separate from humanity, only a set of ethics to live and judge one's life by remains. Religious differences cease to be a concern when one realizes that those differences are the noise introduced by human prejudices. At some point, the question of the existence of God no longer needs an answer, as the strength derived from having a core value system replaces the void created by the question, and the need to subjugate anyone dissipates into nothingness.
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Colin^Davies wrote: it's probably only for Gods will that's some wacky god that makes you think you're smart but arranges the world to prove you wrong at every turn, like a rat in a glass maze. but, to each his own. -c
"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." --Colin Powell, not talking about his boss
Chris Losinger wrote: that's some wacky god that makes you think you're smart but arranges the world to prove you wrong at every turn, like a rat in a glass maze. As they say: The Lord works in mysterious ways. When a family loses a member the priest says a the funeral: This death was not in vain. God had other ideas for this person. WTF!? Instead of comforting the grieving, he's quick to defend the God who led the dead to his death?? Chris, I don't think it's a fair maze. It must have loops and other malicious constructs as well! Preferred storyline: - I am your father. Search your feelings and you'll know it's the truth. Together we can rule this galaxy like father and son. - Ok dad. Let's kick some butt!
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Uh oh... here we go again. :) This is posted here in the hope it will last more than ten minutes at the top of the page. Food for thought: there are literally thousands of diferent religious beliefs to hold faith for but only one athiest belief. Now logically (mathematically) that would make athiesm being the correct view impossible, but the fact there are an infinite number of religious beliefs (everyone is open to interpret them differently) also means that the chance of one of them being correct is infinitismal too. Instead of stating "I am right and you are wrong" (which incidentally every human being believes totally), try asking why are there so many religious views. Incidentally I am not being contradictory; read on. You will see quite quickly that all religious faith is based on three core concepts: - humanity (usually with the promise of infinite ecstasy at the end and always based on living as a part of a functioning community) - forgiveness (it is never too late to turn back - aka. get out clause) - death (including justifications for pain, suffering, and a fear of nothingness) If you can come up with a better set of concepts for people to conclude on to help them UNDERSTAND some of the most basic elements of life (and remember understanding is what drives us to seek knowledge) -- well I and a large porition of the world would love to hear them. Even truely ancient civilisations had their own religions formed from these same concepts - just as the relatively modern civilisations (last four millenia) have created their own religions, and just as the current generations are doing the same ($cientology, [insert wacky American TV-based religion here], etc). They are all the only true religion. Unless you believe otherwise of course. Osama bin Laden uses his religious faith to justify his life and death, and seeks forgiveness from his version of a god -- this is no different to anyone else holding any religions faith. Even *you* if you hold any. This is a good example for athiests to use to place these points, though typically it angers others to the point of making it unusable. What always gets me is when religious people - not all, but a sizable quantity - believe athiests to either be "missing" something or in some way barbaric. I'll never understand why they should draw those conclusions; in fact I could argue the opposite in more than a few cases. The root beliefs of the core concepts (the emboldend bits above) are
There's as much point discussing the existance of god as there is discussing the existance of the five-legged pink hippobird. Neither exist -- end of story. _____________________ "So in the interests of survival, they trained themselves to be agreeing machines instead of thinking machines. All their minds had to do was to discover what other people were thinking, and then they thought that, too." Breakfast of Champions, Kurt Vonnegut
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There's as much point discussing the existance of god as there is discussing the existance of the five-legged pink hippobird. Neither exist -- end of story. _____________________ "So in the interests of survival, they trained themselves to be agreeing machines instead of thinking machines. All their minds had to do was to discover what other people were thinking, and then they thought that, too." Breakfast of Champions, Kurt Vonnegut
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Chris Losinger wrote: that's some wacky god that makes you think you're smart but arranges the world to prove you wrong at every turn, like a rat in a glass maze. As they say: The Lord works in mysterious ways. When a family loses a member the priest says a the funeral: This death was not in vain. God had other ideas for this person. WTF!? Instead of comforting the grieving, he's quick to defend the God who led the dead to his death?? Chris, I don't think it's a fair maze. It must have loops and other malicious constructs as well! Preferred storyline: - I am your father. Search your feelings and you'll know it's the truth. Together we can rule this galaxy like father and son. - Ok dad. Let's kick some butt!
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Chris, I don't think it's a fair maze. It must have loops and other malicious constructs as well! Snakes and Ladders? ;)
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
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Let me just say a couple things: Of course I believe that "I am right and you are wrong". I would look like a total fool to say "I am wrong and you are right, but I will believe my way anyway". But I only use this distinction when comparing my faith (Christian) with other faiths (say Islam, Hindu, Buddist, etc), but not when comparing my church (Dutch Calvinist) with other Christian churches (Catholic, Anglican, Baptist, etc). We are all Christian, and to me that is all that matters. I do not believe that our minor differences are all that important to God. Can I prove that I am right, No I can't, but that is what I believe. I do not say that all athiests (which in my view is a religious faith as valid as any other, they are just not organised into corporate "churches") are "missing" something. Most are very happy with what they believe and leave it that. I just say that those who constantly attack "religious" people because of their faith ( be those attacks physical, verbal, or just messages like yours on message boards) are obviously trying to justify their atheism either to themselves or those around them. If they were secure in their beliefs, then what would it matter to them what other people believe or say. After all, in the end we all just die and nothing else matters anyway. There, I said my bit in response to your post. If you want to learn more about what I belive and why, then make contact with a church near you. I am sure there are many kind and caring people there who can help you. If all you want is to try to insult "religious" people because they are "stupid" enough to not have thought things through and come to the same conclusions as you, then there is no point in discussing this any further.
CPUA 0x5041 Sonork 100.11743 Chicken Little "So it can now be written in stone as a testament to humanities achievments "PJ did Pi at CP"." Colin Davies Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
In a slighlty tangled order... PJ Arends wrote: If all you want is to try to insult "religious" people because they are "stupid" enough to not have thought things through and come to the same conclusions as you, then there is no point in discussing this any further What makes you think I would want that? :confused: I started what was intended to be a broad discussion of what causes us to form beliefs on religion, nothing more and nothing less. PJ Arends wrote: I do not say that all athiests are "missing" something PJ Arends wrote: I just say that those who constantly attack "religious" people because of their faith are obviously trying to justify their atheism either to themselves or those around them Aka.: "missing something". It can't be used on any other system. What draws you to that conclusion, considering what I have restated above about my intents? And I'm not sure from your text how you meant it, but I'll add anyway that if you or anyone else took this topic as any form of belittleing or attack on religion or those with religious views (however Josh wants to define it) then you need to reread it again with your bifocals on. :suss: PJ Arends wrote: After all, in the end we all just die and nothing else matters anyway. Not at all (though I did get the sarcasm). I seek knowledge and understanding just as every other living human does, and in the prusuit of knowledge discussions must surely be held? :confused:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
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There's as much point discussing the existance of god as there is discussing the existance of the five-legged pink hippobird. Neither exist -- end of story. _____________________ "So in the interests of survival, they trained themselves to be agreeing machines instead of thinking machines. All their minds had to do was to discover what other people were thinking, and then they thought that, too." Breakfast of Champions, Kurt Vonnegut
We are not discussing the existance of god (as Josh has said religious faith does not require the belief of a divine being). Daniel Ferguson wrote: five-legged pink hippobird Her name's Susan, but I had to dump her cause she was do darned messy. :-O
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
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David Wulff wrote: Religion will only end when the understanding and acceptance of these core concepts is common to every individual on Earth -- and then it will end, though it may never happen due to the beast called human nature which does not like to admit to failures on such a basic level. Those that are already there have no need to seek answers elsewhere, and those that have tamed their beast in this conquest find themselves stronger in their lives and beliefs without the embelishment. Religion will end only when people no longer find it necessary to see themselves as superior to other human beings. It is too often the only thing we have to justify our attempts to subjugate other peoples, if only in our own small minds. Rather than focusing on the minutiae that separates one religious school of thought from another, I prefer to concentrate on those values which they hold in common, that seeming, logically, to be the part most likely to be truth. When one incorporates those core values into a life, a personal ethos, then there ceases to be Religion, apart and separate from humanity, only a set of ethics to live and judge one's life by remains. Religious differences cease to be a concern when one realizes that those differences are the noise introduced by human prejudices. At some point, the question of the existence of God no longer needs an answer, as the strength derived from having a core value system replaces the void created by the question, and the need to subjugate anyone dissipates into nothingness.
Well said Roger (I really want to spell your name with a 'J' :-O).
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
I'm not schizophrenic, are we.
