to smoke or not to smoke, that is that question?
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Oakman wrote:
The simplest, and in many ways, most humane, thing to do is to perform triage on folks of any age who contract serious illnesses, but especially on folks over 50.
Isn't this what they do in Europe that has people here so against universal health care?
Oakman wrote:
Where is the religion or ethical philosophy that teaches that death is a consummation, not failure?
Kevorkian got put in jail. There is no right to die apparently. At least people have the option of saying in writing they don't want to be kept alive artificially. Not sure how well that works.
wolfbinary wrote:
There is no right to die apparently.
Oh, you're allowed to die, but not help or receive help in the process. If you don't want it slow and painful, that could be a problem.
wolfbinary wrote:
eople have the option of saying in writing they don't want to be kept alive artificially. Not sure how well that works.
For the most part that works well, hospitals are pretty good at honoring the no extra-ordinary effort part. Of course family can just not show them the paper you signed...(one reason DNR medallions worn as jewelry are a good idea).
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Oakman wrote:
The simplest, and in many ways, most humane, thing to do is to perform triage on folks of any age who contract serious illnesses, but especially on folks over 50.
Isn't this what they do in Europe that has people here so against universal health care?
Oakman wrote:
Where is the religion or ethical philosophy that teaches that death is a consummation, not failure?
Kevorkian got put in jail. There is no right to die apparently. At least people have the option of saying in writing they don't want to be kept alive artificially. Not sure how well that works.
wolfbinary wrote:
Isn't this what they do in Europe that has people here so against universal health care?
I have no idea. My concerns about universal health care come from watching it work in Canada. From what I've heard, Oz has a much more flexible system than that, but I've never heard that they show any more intelligence than we do when it comes to letting folks head for Valhalla once they can see the rainbow bridge.
wolfbinary wrote:
Kevorkian got put in jail.
A hangover from the Catholic Church. I suspect that the prohibition against suicide was instituted at the behest of the nobles not wanting the peasants to take the easy way out.
wolfbinary wrote:
At least people have the option of saying in writing they don't want to be kept alive artificially
My step-father was dying of advanced old age in a hospital. A DNR was clearly attached to the foot of his bed and still my mother walked in one day to discover an intern crouched over him giving him oxygen and a heart massage. We got him out of there as soon as we could, but ironically, on the day his transfer to a hospice came through, where he would have been allowed to go off with dignity, he died in the ambulance during the transfer.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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wolfbinary wrote:
Isn't this what they do in Europe that has people here so against universal health care?
I have no idea. My concerns about universal health care come from watching it work in Canada. From what I've heard, Oz has a much more flexible system than that, but I've never heard that they show any more intelligence than we do when it comes to letting folks head for Valhalla once they can see the rainbow bridge.
wolfbinary wrote:
Kevorkian got put in jail.
A hangover from the Catholic Church. I suspect that the prohibition against suicide was instituted at the behest of the nobles not wanting the peasants to take the easy way out.
wolfbinary wrote:
At least people have the option of saying in writing they don't want to be kept alive artificially
My step-father was dying of advanced old age in a hospital. A DNR was clearly attached to the foot of his bed and still my mother walked in one day to discover an intern crouched over him giving him oxygen and a heart massage. We got him out of there as soon as we could, but ironically, on the day his transfer to a hospice came through, where he would have been allowed to go off with dignity, he died in the ambulance during the transfer.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Personally I'm hoping for an exit like my maternal grandfather. In excellent health (multi-mile seafront walks) until he was in his late eighties, then pretty darn good health for several years after that. Suddenly one day at home: Bam, unconcious. One brief moment of lucidity in hospital and then gone within 48 hours. He was retired for nearly 3 decades!
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Honestly, we've put people off smoking, virtually criminalized it in fact, criminalized many other drugs, reduced peoples fat, salt and sugar intake, made driving safer, admonish people for taking many partners, stop our kids from playing outside, got rid of asbestos .. and all it's doing is making everything more expensive and less fun :D
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MidwestLimey wrote:
and all it's doing is making everything more expensive and less fun
Healthy people people living longer isn't as expensive as prolonging the lives of unhealthy people.
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MidwestLimey wrote:
and all it's doing is making everything more expensive and less fun
Healthy people people living longer isn't as expensive as prolonging the lives of unhealthy people.
Maybe you should have actually read the article. The pertinent quote: "A Dutch study published last year in the Public Library of Science Medicine journal said that health care costs for smokers were about $326,000 from age 20 on, compared to about $417,000 for thin and healthy people. The reason: The thin, healthy people lived much longer."
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Maybe you should have actually read the article. The pertinent quote: "A Dutch study published last year in the Public Library of Science Medicine journal said that health care costs for smokers were about $326,000 from age 20 on, compared to about $417,000 for thin and healthy people. The reason: The thin, healthy people lived much longer."
Maybe I should have, but still, surely thin and healthy people offset the cost of their health care more as well? What was the tax revenue from healthy people versus smokers?
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Personally I'm hoping for an exit like my maternal grandfather. In excellent health (multi-mile seafront walks) until he was in his late eighties, then pretty darn good health for several years after that. Suddenly one day at home: Bam, unconcious. One brief moment of lucidity in hospital and then gone within 48 hours. He was retired for nearly 3 decades!
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I'm hoping for nanotechnology and stem cell breakthroughs that allow me a good few decades before contemplating my departure.
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'"The natural train of logic that follows from that is that then anybody that's admitted around age 65 or older that's showing any signs of sickness should be denied treatment," Pechacek said. "That's the cheapest thing to do."' The simplest, and in many ways, most humane, thing to do is to perform triage on folks of any age who contract serious illnesses, but especially on folks over 50. Our medical costs are so high because we have adopted an attitude of "Who cares how much it costs? Give the patient another month to live!" This attitude holds true if the patient is vegetative, in extreme pain, or is simply disappearing into the fog of Alzheimer's. I have seen statistics that say that 90% of the money spent on a person's healthcare is spent in the last six months of his life. As a result medicare is expensive, private insurance is expensive, hospitals are expensive. And our taxes go up for no good reason. We would never put a beloved pet through the suffering and agony and loss of quality of life that we do our family. Where is the religion or ethical philosophy that teaches that death is a consummation, not failure?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Our medical costs are so high because
1. medical innovation 2. lawsuit happy citizens that force dramatic increases in malpractice insurance for doctors 3. medical community that protects poor doctors (thus adding to the cost of the insurance)
Oakman wrote:
medicare is expensive
but the cost is held down because of government intervention - shifting the cost to everyone else
Oakman wrote:
private insurance is expensive
because of: 1. cost shifting mentioned above 2. government intervention (federal and local) that mandates certain coverages 3. government intervention that requires emergency room care to whomever stumbles in, regardless of ability to pay (think illegals and dead asses), which cause yet more cost shifting
Oakman wrote:
Where is the religion or ethical philosophy that teaches that death is a consummation, not failure?
lost, remember that God is dead (check with Time, they had the annuncement)
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Maybe I should have, but still, surely thin and healthy people offset the cost of their health care more as well? What was the tax revenue from healthy people versus smokers?
Maybe where you live, but in The US, people over 65 get a very favorable tax rate. It is highly unlikely that your healthy thin person would pay in the $91,000 difference in taxes that their care costs, even over 10 years. More likely, they are being subsidized by the exorbitant tax the smokers paid on their smokes while they were alive. ;P
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I'm hoping for nanotechnology and stem cell breakthroughs that allow me a good few decades before contemplating my departure.
You must have been reading Joh Scalzi's "Old Man's War". If not, you should. Good book.
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Maybe where you live, but in The US, people over 65 get a very favorable tax rate. It is highly unlikely that your healthy thin person would pay in the $91,000 difference in taxes that their care costs, even over 10 years. More likely, they are being subsidized by the exorbitant tax the smokers paid on their smokes while they were alive. ;P
Rob Graham wrote:
More likely, they are being subsidized by the exorbitant tax the smokers paid on their smokes while they were alive.
I can live with that. :)
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Rob Graham wrote:
More likely, they are being subsidized by the exorbitant tax the smokers paid on their smokes while they were alive.
I can live with that. :)
I quit 2 yrs ago. I hope to live to recoup some of that.
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I quit 2 yrs ago. I hope to live to recoup some of that.
Rob Graham wrote:
I quit 2 yrs ago.
Ditto. Almost to the day.
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Oakman wrote:
Our medical costs are so high because
1. medical innovation 2. lawsuit happy citizens that force dramatic increases in malpractice insurance for doctors 3. medical community that protects poor doctors (thus adding to the cost of the insurance)
Oakman wrote:
medicare is expensive
but the cost is held down because of government intervention - shifting the cost to everyone else
Oakman wrote:
private insurance is expensive
because of: 1. cost shifting mentioned above 2. government intervention (federal and local) that mandates certain coverages 3. government intervention that requires emergency room care to whomever stumbles in, regardless of ability to pay (think illegals and dead asses), which cause yet more cost shifting
Oakman wrote:
Where is the religion or ethical philosophy that teaches that death is a consummation, not failure?
lost, remember that God is dead (check with Time, they had the annuncement)
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
medical innovation 2. lawsuit happy citizens that force dramatic increases in malpractice insurance for doctors 3. medical community that protects poor doctors (thus adding to the cost of the insurance)
I'm sure those contribute. None the less 90% of all the costs of most people's lifetime medical care occur in the last six months of their lives. I can do the math, as I am sure you can.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
but the cost is held down because of government intervention - shifting the cost to everyone else
I' told that private insurers do the same thing, insisting on sweetheart deals that mean that doctors switch some of their cost to everyone else. Sooner or later, of course, there won't be anyone else to switch to.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
cost shifting mentioned above 2. government intervention (federal and local) that mandates certain coverages 3. government intervention that requires emergency room care to whomever stumbles in, regardless of ability to pay (think illegals and dead asses), which cause yet more cost shifting
#3 is a very real problem in almost every part of the US - especially the border states and the big cities. 'Twould be really nice if someome passed a law saying that only U.S. citizens could claim benefits from the U.S. Government, wouldn't it? Apparently, in Australia, they won't let you into the country unless you have local insurance - of course, GW Bush spent 8 years sitting on his hands while illegals poured over the border and his campaign contributors got cheap labor, knowing that you and I would have to pick up their healthcare bill.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
lost, remember that God is dead
One of the disconnects I noticed about the brand of Christianity I grew up in was how much fear there was of dying. (I understand fear of pain. And I understand the agony of those left behind. I'm talking about "God-fearin'" folks who obviously wanted to live forever.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Rob Graham wrote:
I quit 2 yrs ago.
Ditto. Almost to the day.
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You must have been reading Joh Scalzi's "Old Man's War". If not, you should. Good book.
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I'm hoping for nanotechnology and stem cell breakthroughs that allow me a good few decades before contemplating my departure.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
medical innovation 2. lawsuit happy citizens that force dramatic increases in malpractice insurance for doctors 3. medical community that protects poor doctors (thus adding to the cost of the insurance)
I'm sure those contribute. None the less 90% of all the costs of most people's lifetime medical care occur in the last six months of their lives. I can do the math, as I am sure you can.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
but the cost is held down because of government intervention - shifting the cost to everyone else
I' told that private insurers do the same thing, insisting on sweetheart deals that mean that doctors switch some of their cost to everyone else. Sooner or later, of course, there won't be anyone else to switch to.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
cost shifting mentioned above 2. government intervention (federal and local) that mandates certain coverages 3. government intervention that requires emergency room care to whomever stumbles in, regardless of ability to pay (think illegals and dead asses), which cause yet more cost shifting
#3 is a very real problem in almost every part of the US - especially the border states and the big cities. 'Twould be really nice if someome passed a law saying that only U.S. citizens could claim benefits from the U.S. Government, wouldn't it? Apparently, in Australia, they won't let you into the country unless you have local insurance - of course, GW Bush spent 8 years sitting on his hands while illegals poured over the border and his campaign contributors got cheap labor, knowing that you and I would have to pick up their healthcare bill.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
lost, remember that God is dead
One of the disconnects I noticed about the brand of Christianity I grew up in was how much fear there was of dying. (I understand fear of pain. And I understand the agony of those left behind. I'm talking about "God-fearin'" folks who obviously wanted to live forever.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
'Twould be really nice if someome passed a law saying that only U.S. citizens could claim benefits from the U.S. Government
Erhmmm, just because I haven't filed the paperwork for citizenship doesn't mean I don't pay those damn pesky taxes.
Oakman wrote:
I'm talking about "God-fearin'" folks who obviously wanted to live forever.
Perhaps they were God fearin' because of what they believed they'd done, and the consequences they suspected awaited them.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
medical innovation 2. lawsuit happy citizens that force dramatic increases in malpractice insurance for doctors 3. medical community that protects poor doctors (thus adding to the cost of the insurance)
I'm sure those contribute. None the less 90% of all the costs of most people's lifetime medical care occur in the last six months of their lives. I can do the math, as I am sure you can.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
but the cost is held down because of government intervention - shifting the cost to everyone else
I' told that private insurers do the same thing, insisting on sweetheart deals that mean that doctors switch some of their cost to everyone else. Sooner or later, of course, there won't be anyone else to switch to.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
cost shifting mentioned above 2. government intervention (federal and local) that mandates certain coverages 3. government intervention that requires emergency room care to whomever stumbles in, regardless of ability to pay (think illegals and dead asses), which cause yet more cost shifting
#3 is a very real problem in almost every part of the US - especially the border states and the big cities. 'Twould be really nice if someome passed a law saying that only U.S. citizens could claim benefits from the U.S. Government, wouldn't it? Apparently, in Australia, they won't let you into the country unless you have local insurance - of course, GW Bush spent 8 years sitting on his hands while illegals poured over the border and his campaign contributors got cheap labor, knowing that you and I would have to pick up their healthcare bill.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
lost, remember that God is dead
One of the disconnects I noticed about the brand of Christianity I grew up in was how much fear there was of dying. (I understand fear of pain. And I understand the agony of those left behind. I'm talking about "God-fearin'" folks who obviously wanted to live forever.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
And I understand the agony of those left behind. I'm talking about "God-fearin'" folks who obviously wanted to live forever.
So, what exactly is your argument? Religious people should be happy to die to save the non-religious money?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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'"The natural train of logic that follows from that is that then anybody that's admitted around age 65 or older that's showing any signs of sickness should be denied treatment," Pechacek said. "That's the cheapest thing to do."' The simplest, and in many ways, most humane, thing to do is to perform triage on folks of any age who contract serious illnesses, but especially on folks over 50. Our medical costs are so high because we have adopted an attitude of "Who cares how much it costs? Give the patient another month to live!" This attitude holds true if the patient is vegetative, in extreme pain, or is simply disappearing into the fog of Alzheimer's. I have seen statistics that say that 90% of the money spent on a person's healthcare is spent in the last six months of his life. As a result medicare is expensive, private insurance is expensive, hospitals are expensive. And our taxes go up for no good reason. We would never put a beloved pet through the suffering and agony and loss of quality of life that we do our family. Where is the religion or ethical philosophy that teaches that death is a consummation, not failure?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Either health care is a fundamental human right or it is not. If it is not, than government has no business giving it to anyone in any way. If it is, the state is obligated to ensure every last possible nanosecond of moral existence to every person regardless of the expense. What needs to happen is for the government to get entirely out of the issue altogether. That would solve the entire problem.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.