The real enemy is ...

[Oakman]

oilFactotum wrote:

And you have been silent for the past 8 years.

Same technique, just with a twist. But the truth is that you are either lying, if you know - as I do - that Rob has spoken out against government intrusion often during Bush's presidency, or you are making up something to attack him with because you have no better method of countering what he said.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Stan Shannon]

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I fully support government surveillance of terrorists of any stripe. I sure as hell hope the Obama administration is keeping tabs on them. You know, people like his buddy Bill Ayers. However, it is very revealing that you are outraged by the notion of government spying on terrorists who are not white christians, but applaude it when they are. As usual, oily, you are the bright shining example of political hypocrisy here, not me.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Stan Shannon]

Oakman wrote:

union workers

You mean these guys?[^] Why? Is that a problem? But, yeah, Jon, you are absolutely correct. I believe exactly the same thing about the people who put Obama into power as they feel about me. I don't consider them to be my countrymen. I want to be liberated from them. And, yes, if there were a political movement, with a real, elected, political head, to achieve that, I would lend it my support without hesitation. I hate these people. I wish them nothing but ill. Not very christian of me, I know, but there it is.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Stan Shannon]

Le Centriste wrote:

I remember you calling people that did not agree with you "communists", "leftits", etc, even if they are not.

No, I call people who are "communists", "leftists", etc, "communists", "leftists", etc. You know, people like you and B.Obama.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Oakman]

Stan Shannon wrote:

No, I call people who are "communists", "leftists", etc, "communists", "leftists", etc.

Of course you disagree with them but only because they are communists, leftists, etc. And the proof that they are communists, leftists, etc. is that they disagree with you. What a wonderfully neat closed system.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Oakman]

Stan Shannon wrote:

But, yeah, Jon, you are absolutely correct. I believe exactly the same thing about the people who put Obama into power as they feel about me. I don't consider them to be my countrymen. I want to be liberated from them. And, yes, if there were a political movement, with a real, elected, political head, to achieve that, I would lend it my support without hesitation. I hate these people. I wish them nothing but ill. Not very christian of me, I know, but there it is.

As a not very good Christian, perhaps you should change your religious affilation. It's obvious that except for the name of the Suprememe Being, you and Osama agree on just about everything. Especially the hating most Americans part.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Le centriste]

Thank you for proving my point.

[Stan Shannon]

Your You're welcome.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Stan Shannon]

I've disagreed with Illion on any number of issue. I've never called him a leftist.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[oilFactotum]

Oakman wrote:

if you know

I don't know that it is true. Every conversation that I have had with him, he has either fully supported Bush's actions or denied that anything was even done. So, in one way, I was wrong - he was not silent.

Oakman wrote:

you are either lying

Your ad hominem attacks bore me.

Oakman wrote:

no better method of countering what he said.

I have no need to counter him. I have not been silent about the expansion of the surveillance state.

[oilFactotum]

Stan Shannon wrote:

I don't know what the f*** you're talking about.

The sad thing is - I believe you.

Stan Shannon wrote:

I fully support government surveillance of terrorists of any stripe

But it's never been about that. The government will spy on anybody and everybody when you give them unlimited ability to spy without oversight - not just terrorists. I pointed it out to you months ago that these powers that you so avidly desired the president to have would soon be in the hands of the people you fear the most.

Stan Shannon wrote:

However, it is very revealing that you are outraged by the notion of government spying on terrorists who are not white christians, but applaude it when they are

You just don't get it and I assume you never will. This has never been about terrorists. This has always been about opposing giving the government the power to spy on everybody without oversight or limits. I have never been "outraged" by spying on terrorists and I have never "applauded" spying on white christians.

[Stan Shannon]

oilFactotum wrote:

I pointed it out to you months ago that these powers that you so avidly desired the president to have would soon be in the hands of the people you fear the most.

And I said then, and repeat now, they can wiretap my phone any time they please. I don't care. I do not believe myself to be endowed by my creator with an unalienable right to use a telephone. If it might save someone's life - go for it.

oilFactotum wrote:

I have never been "outraged" by spying on terrorists and I have never "applauded" spying on white christians.

When I hear you howling for Obama's impeachment, I will believe you.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[John Carson]

Oakman wrote:

Can you imagine the screams of outrage that would have been all over the media and the halls of Congress if Bush, Cheney, and skeleton-head had put out a 9 page document targeting all liberal groups as worth watching, especially Union members? Denis Kuchinich would have immediately introduced three more bills of impeachment. The level of paranoia shown in that document is far beyond anything generated by the Bush administration. You have to look to something like the Unabomber's manifesto, or some of Stan's rants, to equal the paranoia evidenced by Homeland Security.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/20/politics/20fbi.html?_r=1[^]

John Carson

[Oakman]

John Carson wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/20/politics/20fbi.html?\_r=1\[^\]

I guess I am not making myself clear. It is not that Homeland Security is keeping an eye on groups that it thinks may have violent tendencies. Obviously there are right-wing groups, just as there are left-wing groups that attempt to use terror as a weapon. I understand why they think it would be a good idea to watch them and infiltrate them. What outrages me is that unlike the article you cite above, unlike the 2001 report Oily cited, no specific groups are named as potential threats. Instead everyone (not even every group, but everyone) who is opposed to abortion, who supports a strict construction of the Second Amendment, who is opposed to stem-cell research, who wants lower taxes or who served in the armed forces is labeled as a member of a suspect group who should be watched by the police as potential terrorists. I also find it infuriating that a few weeks ago, Janet Napolitano, in testimony before Congress, declined to label Al Qaeda as a terrorist organization, stating that labels like that did no good. However, she has no problem labeling the individuals I already listed as potential terrorists.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface