The diminishing power of "boo" words
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Stan Shannon wrote:
The problem is that you simply buy into the collectivist definitions of fascism. The United States is a full blown fascist society now.
This is, of course, because any definition of fascism must have as its last clause, "unless the preceding politico-economic practices are put into place by someone Stan Shannon approves of in which case the proper term is 'Jeffersonianism'"
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Not at all. Fascism is defined by the institutions of a society being coopted by the government to promote a collectivist agenda defined by a central political authority. Jeffersonianism is the exact opposite, where the social agenda is defined by individuals participating equally at local levels of government to define the parameters of their society. You can try to redefine those terms all you like, but that is what they mean.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
So you admit than that you, Obama and the democrats have been pushing socialism
Stan, did you forget that John is an Australian? He doesn't work with the Democrats or in tandem with Obama, at all. . .ever. There is no way he could admit they he and they were ever doing anything together. (New World Order conspiracies not withstanding.)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
Stan, did you forget that John is an Australian? He doesn't work with the Democrats or in tandem with Obama, at all. . .ever. There is no way he could admit they he and they were ever doing anything together. (New World Order conspiracies not withstanding.)
I'm not forgeting anything. SOcialism has always been an international movement. John is simply proof that they all, in fact, do move in tandem politically.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Oakman wrote:
Game design and programming.
Oakman wrote:
And what do you do all day
Well I used to do exactly that, I'd spend all day from sun up to sun up writing AI algorithms, reading my programming books, and just plain having fun developing a game of some sort. I never got paid because it is a hobby so my dad thought I was wasting my time. Now I spend my time figuring out how I can make money through some kind of business. I am thinking about what I can do to get around 500-800 a month from ad revenue online. Perhaps if I can create a high traffic cluster of websites I could inject my own advertisements for my own software. I have an excellent idea for a game which I believe would be fun and rewarding to play. I won't mention it here because I don't want anyone to steal my idea. If I can make it the ad revenue would be tremendous if it gained popularity.
Intel 4004 wrote:
I won't mention it here because I don't want anyone to steal my idea.
Ideas are cheap and easy to come by. I cannot begin to count the number of times someone came up to me and said, "I have a great idea for a game. Let me tell it to you and then you design it, program it, and test it and I'll give you 40% of the profits." What's expensive and hard to find is knowledge, experience, and skill. You don't get those things by reading a book or thinking about how to make money. You definitely don't get them dumping chemicals into your system. And you don't get them by pissing everyone off, especially those who know more than you do. $500 @ month is chump change. Think in terms of $500 every four hours. 24/7.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Intel 4004 wrote:
I won't mention it here because I don't want anyone to steal my idea.
Ideas are cheap and easy to come by. I cannot begin to count the number of times someone came up to me and said, "I have a great idea for a game. Let me tell it to you and then you design it, program it, and test it and I'll give you 40% of the profits." What's expensive and hard to find is knowledge, experience, and skill. You don't get those things by reading a book or thinking about how to make money. You definitely don't get them dumping chemicals into your system. And you don't get them by pissing everyone off, especially those who know more than you do. $500 @ month is chump change. Think in terms of $500 every four hours. 24/7.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Not at all. Fascism is defined by the institutions of a society being coopted by the government to promote a collectivist agenda defined by a central political authority. Jeffersonianism is the exact opposite, where the social agenda is defined by individuals participating equally at local levels of government to define the parameters of their society. You can try to redefine those terms all you like, but that is what they mean.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Fascism is defined by the institutions of a society being coopted by the government to promote a collectivist agenda defined by a central political authority
Stan Shannon wrote:
Jeffersonianism is the exact opposite, where the social agenda is defined by individuals
Interesting. You define fascism as having a "collectivist agenda," by which i assume you mean a politico-economic one. But Jeffersonianism is defined by you as having a "social agenda" by which I take it you mean decisions about what is and is not politically correct. And then you go on to stress that this can only happen on 'the local level.' Accepting for the moment, your definitions lock, stock and barrel, it would appear that Jeffersonian Fascism is possible as would be Jeffersonian Socialism - at least on the local level. That proviso begs the question: what is the local level? Back in Jefferson's day Virgina was mostly wilderness and extended, iirc, all the way to Mississippi. Rhode Island, which is tucked into a tiny corner of seacoast and sandwiched between Massachusetts and Connecticut was considered to be days, even weeks away from Boston or Hartford. It made great good sense to think that Georgia being separated from New York by a journey of a month of more should be thought of as separate, just as Spain and Germany were separate and sovereign. Now, when one can travel from Maine to California in less time than it took Paul Revere to get from Boston to Concord, what is the local level? Elsewhere we've both posted about Star Trek. In that continuum, Mars is part of the local level. Yet you seem to put great faith in the more or less artificial divisions George III (and other politicians since him) drew on a map as if they somehow define a different species or at least a different breed.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Intel 4004 wrote:
I won't mention it here because I don't want anyone to steal my idea.
Ideas are cheap and easy to come by. I cannot begin to count the number of times someone came up to me and said, "I have a great idea for a game. Let me tell it to you and then you design it, program it, and test it and I'll give you 40% of the profits." What's expensive and hard to find is knowledge, experience, and skill. You don't get those things by reading a book or thinking about how to make money. You definitely don't get them dumping chemicals into your system. And you don't get them by pissing everyone off, especially those who know more than you do. $500 @ month is chump change. Think in terms of $500 every four hours. 24/7.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
You underestimate me far too much.
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This discussion is for people with jobs, people who pay tax. How do you have a vested interest ?
Intel 4004 wrote:
Lets say I buy a beer from a company that pays one of those rich bastards
So, people who are successful, are to be hated for it ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "I am new to programming world. I have been learning c# for about past four weeks. I am quite acquainted with the fundamentals of c#. Now I have to work on a project which converts given flat files to XML using the XML serialization method" - SK64 ( but the forums have stuff like this posted every day )
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Intel 4004 wrote:
Why shouldn't they?
The issue under discussion is labelling. You shouldn't use dramatically different labels for things that are only modestly different.
Intel 4004 wrote:
It would be better if everyone paid an equal share. In the end it all evens out anyways. Someone is paying their income, and that someone gets money from somewhere else and so on. Lets say I buy a beer from a company that pays one of those rich bastards, I end up contributing to his salary and ultimately contributing to the money he sends to the IRS.
Interpreted generously, you appear to be claiming that the post-tax distribution of income is the same regardless of the progressivity of the tax system because tax burdens get shifted by means of changes in salaries and prices. Please provide the proof. A Nobel Prize in economics awaits you.
John Carson
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Intel 4004 wrote:
It would be better if everyone paid an equal share.
With this you and I agree 100%. I find the idea of a graduated tax distasteful and see no logical means to justify it a society where people are supposed to be treated as equals and have the same opportunities.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
How do you reconcile the reality of how much infrastructure is used? Shouldn't taxation be relative to usage? A wealthy businessman depends on all of the social infrastructure paid by taxes more than lower class people do. All you have to consider is use of the court system to start. Police etc seem to be used more by the wealthy. Contract enforcement, copyright infringement, etc. I think taxation should be proportional to usage of the public commons.
This statement is false
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Intel 4004 wrote:
Yes but Oakhead & Co disagree so we must be wrong. :~
I never claimed to be right. But, my opinion is that the graduated tax code has lead to the incredible cruft and vaguely written rules in our tax code. Hell, I'll admit that as an owner of multiple business and someone who invests I pay far less in taxes than the published rate. It is the system and I'd be stupid not to understand it and to be as efficient as possible when it comes to it.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
Chris Austin wrote:
Hell, I'll admit that as an owner of multiple business and someone who invests I pay far less in taxes than the published rate.
Exactly. The loopholes need to be closed. I do agree that our taxcode is whacked.
This statement is false
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Intel 4004 wrote:
I won't mention it here because I don't want anyone to steal my idea.
Ideas are cheap and easy to come by. I cannot begin to count the number of times someone came up to me and said, "I have a great idea for a game. Let me tell it to you and then you design it, program it, and test it and I'll give you 40% of the profits." What's expensive and hard to find is knowledge, experience, and skill. You don't get those things by reading a book or thinking about how to make money. You definitely don't get them dumping chemicals into your system. And you don't get them by pissing everyone off, especially those who know more than you do. $500 @ month is chump change. Think in terms of $500 every four hours. 24/7.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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How do you reconcile the reality of how much infrastructure is used? Shouldn't taxation be relative to usage? A wealthy businessman depends on all of the social infrastructure paid by taxes more than lower class people do. All you have to consider is use of the court system to start. Police etc seem to be used more by the wealthy. Contract enforcement, copyright infringement, etc. I think taxation should be proportional to usage of the public commons.
This statement is false
Synaptrik wrote:
Shouldn't taxation be relative to usage?
Shouldn't you be arguing for a usage tax rather than an income tax that does not treat all taxpayers in a uniform manner?
Synaptrik wrote:
A wealthy businessman depends on all of the social infrastructure paid by taxes more than lower class people do.
I don't think I am convinced. The business man is taxed every step of the way. He has to pay taxes on products he uses, office equipment, land, property, vehicles, fuel tax to move those vehicles. So on and so on. As a business owner, it seems I can't take a breath without paying some kind of tax.
Synaptrik wrote:
All you have to consider is use of the court system to start.
Criminal or civil? I don't know the statistic so I wont say this is a fact but I doubt that middle class or better off people are clogging up the criminal system.
Synaptrik wrote:
Police etc seem to be used more by the wealthy.
Are they? How often is a police car needed to head out to a wealthy person's house versus a crack house?
Synaptrik wrote:
I think taxation should be proportional to usage of the public commons.
Then how would a poor person get food, free training, job placement assistance, heath care for their children? As they are using far more resources than a middle class American. So, if I take my children to a park or lake less often would I get a tax break under your plan?
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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Chris Austin wrote:
Hell, I'll admit that as an owner of multiple business and someone who invests I pay far less in taxes than the published rate.
Exactly. The loopholes need to be closed. I do agree that our taxcode is whacked.
This statement is false
They are not loopholes when they are placed there intentionally. The best way in my opinion to be rid of them is to implement a fair tax system where everybody pays the same percentage without any deductions.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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You underestimate me far too much.
Intel 4004 wrote:
You underestimate me far too much
You have, in the past, made it easy to do. I will admit that you have been showing some signs of having thought processes lately, but I keep wondering when you're going to revert.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Oakman wrote:
You definitely don't get them dumping chemicals into your system
Tell that to my coffee cup.
This statement is false
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Especially when in reality the wealthier in this country use more of the commons than lower class people do and such should pay a bit more, justifying a progressive tax system. Proportionate to usage.
This statement is false
Is it reality or your preception? More to the point, can you prove it with data subject to review and honest scrunity?
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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So you admit than that you, Obama and the democrats have been pushing socialism all along just as I have always claimed?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
So you admit than that you, Obama and the democrats have been pushing socialism all along just as I have always claimed?
No, my point is that Obama is only "socialist" in a completely debased sense of the word --- just as George Bush was only "fascist" in a completely debased sense of the word.
John Carson
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John Carson wrote:
Please provide the proof.
You don't need proof for this, its easy to understand how it works. Maybe not for you, but it is for me. Unfortunately many people find economics impossible to understand, however I would expect computer savvy programmers to understand it more than anyone else.
Intel 4004 wrote:
You don't need proof for this, its easy to understand how it works. Maybe not for you, but it is for me. Unfortunately many people find economics impossible to understand, however I would expect computer savvy programmers to understand it more than anyone else.
This is why people tend to dismiss you out of hand. Firstly, the better you understand something the easier it is to prove and when making a relatively unique claim, you should be prepared to either provide proof or retract. Secondly, John holds a PhD in economics. The odds of you understanding something that he doesn't are somewhere between zero and minus one. He may not agree with your interpretation of the facts, but he will understand them. It is always wise in this room not to underestimate the people who disagree with you. That's why I reconsidered when you said I underestimated you. Because Ilion underestimates everyone when even Ravel regularly pwns him, he has become a laughing stock. While I find Stan a frustrating and infuriating debater at times, I never forget that he has a quick mind and a good background in American history. I would suggest that simply because the Austrian school of economics is new to you, you would be in error to assume that no-one else in here knows of it. When speaking of the historical record, you can assume that I, Stan, Rob, and others know a great deal about the subject. When dealing with economics, you should bear in mind what I've said about John and remember that Zep, too, does economics for a living - a very good living. This lecture is, of course, worth exactly what you paid for it. Nonetheless it's good advice if you want to be taken seriously rather than be classified as just another Ilion.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Intel 4004 wrote:
You don't need proof for this, its easy to understand how it works. Maybe not for you, but it is for me. Unfortunately many people find economics impossible to understand, however I would expect computer savvy programmers to understand it more than anyone else.
This is why people tend to dismiss you out of hand. Firstly, the better you understand something the easier it is to prove and when making a relatively unique claim, you should be prepared to either provide proof or retract. Secondly, John holds a PhD in economics. The odds of you understanding something that he doesn't are somewhere between zero and minus one. He may not agree with your interpretation of the facts, but he will understand them. It is always wise in this room not to underestimate the people who disagree with you. That's why I reconsidered when you said I underestimated you. Because Ilion underestimates everyone when even Ravel regularly pwns him, he has become a laughing stock. While I find Stan a frustrating and infuriating debater at times, I never forget that he has a quick mind and a good background in American history. I would suggest that simply because the Austrian school of economics is new to you, you would be in error to assume that no-one else in here knows of it. When speaking of the historical record, you can assume that I, Stan, Rob, and others know a great deal about the subject. When dealing with economics, you should bear in mind what I've said about John and remember that Zep, too, does economics for a living - a very good living. This lecture is, of course, worth exactly what you paid for it. Nonetheless it's good advice if you want to be taken seriously rather than be classified as just another Ilion.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
Secondly, John holds a PhD in economics. The odds of you understanding something that he doesn't are somewhere between zero and minus one. He may not agree with your interpretation of the facts, but he will understand them.
I still disagree with him. It would seem as if economics is as debatable as politics, I know where I stand and I will defend that stance. However I don't dig into it too much here because it wont get me anywhere and there is a lot of detail that needs to be typed down which will just be buried in two days.
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John Carson wrote:
The issue under discussion is labelling.
Interesting... I thought it's purpose was to point out how evil, sadistic, disingenuous, corrupt and pointy headed conservatives were. But if that's the way you saw it, that explains why you don't see bias in the media either.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
BoneSoft wrote:
Interesting... I thought it's purpose was to point out how evil, sadistic, disingenuous, corrupt and pointy headed conservatives were.
If that's the way you saw it, that explains why your opinions on bias are worthless.
John Carson