I feel so free...
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Yes you love your master authorities watching you. It must feel so good to you.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
When it keeps people from killing me, yes. Of course, if you want to step on the Tube the day after a terrorist strike, in a country with no surveillance, feel free. Just don't expect me to be on there with you
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
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http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25623185-661,00.html[^] http://www.environmentalleader.com/2009/06/12/australias-carbon-police-may-enter-premises/[^] http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/11896[^] http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/30/2612348.htm[^] Youth indoctrination[^] Propaganda to prepare the masses[^]
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
OK, so, this is saying that people who try to earn carbon credits, can be investigated if it seems their claim is bogus. I think the whole carbon trade thing is dumb, but it makes sense that if money is used as an incentive, people will try to rip it off, and the police will enforce it. Why would I care ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
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OK, so, this is saying that people who try to earn carbon credits, can be investigated if it seems their claim is bogus. I think the whole carbon trade thing is dumb, but it makes sense that if money is used as an incentive, people will try to rip it off, and the police will enforce it. Why would I care ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian Graus wrote:
Why would I care ?
I supposed you don't, but there are many good Aussies out there that do care about their country and the lives of their fellow countrymen.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
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When it keeps people from killing me, yes. Of course, if you want to step on the Tube the day after a terrorist strike, in a country with no surveillance, feel free. Just don't expect me to be on there with you
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
What do you think about those RFIDs? I bet you would like it.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
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What do you think about those RFIDs? I bet you would like it.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
For active devices, a 100 meter distance around a maximum transmission range. To track a person just using RFID within the confines of a fairly small town will require hundreds if not thousands of readers. Although the price of all types of RFID equiment is coming down, it would still be hugely expensive. Your concerns I feel are unjustified not just on costs by also in terms of a clear violation of the Human Rights legislation in terms of compulsion for an entire population of a country to be injected with such devices, it would also constitute actual assault by the state and that is also illegal. http://www.rfip.eu/aboutrfid.htm[^]
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For active devices, a 100 meter distance around a maximum transmission range. To track a person just using RFID within the confines of a fairly small town will require hundreds if not thousands of readers. Although the price of all types of RFID equiment is coming down, it would still be hugely expensive. Your concerns I feel are unjustified not just on costs by also in terms of a clear violation of the Human Rights legislation in terms of compulsion for an entire population of a country to be injected with such devices, it would also constitute actual assault by the state and that is also illegal. http://www.rfip.eu/aboutrfid.htm[^]
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Although the price of all types of RFID equiment is coming down, it would still be hugely expensive.
Well, they 4.2 million CCTV cameras all around in Britain. I'm sure the cost of the RFID systems will be pretty insignificant.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Your concerns I feel are unjustified not just on costs by also in terms of a clear violation of the Human Rights legislation in terms of compulsion for an entire population of a country to be injected with such devices, it would also constitute actual assault by the state and that is also illegal.
They are actually pushing through legislation here that will ban forced RFID, but people can still get them if they want, special deals like %20 off all purchases with your chip or something along those lines. It will be pushed through workarounds if the law does not allow them, or they will just change the law. Here the Constitution is supposed to be the supreme law of the land, but it is constantly infringed upon (warrentless "wiretapping" or illegal searches for instance).
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
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What do you think about those RFIDs? I bet you would like it.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
As has been said previously, they're impractical. They wouldn't work; the infrastructure wouldn't support them. But even if it did, if they were put into prison residents who are supposed to be serving indefinite terms I could see the reasons for such a decision. I don't personally agree with it (I believe that it puts governments on a slippery slope towards a dictatorship), but I could see the good reasons behind it Are you just going to throw accusation after accusation at me, or actually try to discuss my opinions rationally? As it is, you're just creating a massive paranoia database. So far the only entries are
- Cameras
- Other observational devices
- RFIDs
- New World Order
Surely you can do better than that
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Although the price of all types of RFID equiment is coming down, it would still be hugely expensive.
Well, they 4.2 million CCTV cameras all around in Britain. I'm sure the cost of the RFID systems will be pretty insignificant.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Your concerns I feel are unjustified not just on costs by also in terms of a clear violation of the Human Rights legislation in terms of compulsion for an entire population of a country to be injected with such devices, it would also constitute actual assault by the state and that is also illegal.
They are actually pushing through legislation here that will ban forced RFID, but people can still get them if they want, special deals like %20 off all purchases with your chip or something along those lines. It will be pushed through workarounds if the law does not allow them, or they will just change the law. Here the Constitution is supposed to be the supreme law of the land, but it is constantly infringed upon (warrentless "wiretapping" or illegal searches for instance).
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
4.2 million is a guestimate, by a strange calculation ... [quote]The basis comes from a survey of the number of CCTV cameras in two busy south London streets, Putney High Street and Upper Richmond Road. The researchers sampled 211 "premises" - banks, estate agents, pubs, shops and office blocks - and found that 41 per cent had CCTV systems, with an average of 4.1 cameras per system. By assuming this is "broadly representative" of CCTV coverage across the whole of London, the authors estimate that 41 per cent, or 102,910, of the 251,000 VAT-registered businesses registered in London would have a CCTV system. Multiply this by 4.1 and there would be 421,931 cameras.[/quote]. So, we have a guestimated that 41%+ is operated by commercial operatives protecting their goods etc from shop-lifters (thieves). From this calculation, the same report suggests that London has around 1/2 million cameras and when adjusted for the UK population a figure of 4.2 million is reached. So, from the content of CCTV usage in a couple of streets they have assumed a laughable figure of 4.2 million. The reference below says clearly [quote] If Putney High Street was more representative of the wider world, you'd expect, according to the authors' methodology, there to be more than half a million business CCTV cameras in London. [/quote] http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/factcheck+how+many+cctv+cameras/2291167[^] Well Henize, I think you over worry about Big Brother.
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As has been said previously, they're impractical. They wouldn't work; the infrastructure wouldn't support them. But even if it did, if they were put into prison residents who are supposed to be serving indefinite terms I could see the reasons for such a decision. I don't personally agree with it (I believe that it puts governments on a slippery slope towards a dictatorship), but I could see the good reasons behind it Are you just going to throw accusation after accusation at me, or actually try to discuss my opinions rationally? As it is, you're just creating a massive paranoia database. So far the only entries are
- Cameras
- Other observational devices
- RFIDs
- New World Order
Surely you can do better than that
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
The cameras don't exist in your mind. And the simple and inexpensive RFID system is somehow impossible only because you don't like the idea, but the fact is you will be getting them within the next 10 years. The technology is here and its cheap.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
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4.2 million is a guestimate, by a strange calculation ... [quote]The basis comes from a survey of the number of CCTV cameras in two busy south London streets, Putney High Street and Upper Richmond Road. The researchers sampled 211 "premises" - banks, estate agents, pubs, shops and office blocks - and found that 41 per cent had CCTV systems, with an average of 4.1 cameras per system. By assuming this is "broadly representative" of CCTV coverage across the whole of London, the authors estimate that 41 per cent, or 102,910, of the 251,000 VAT-registered businesses registered in London would have a CCTV system. Multiply this by 4.1 and there would be 421,931 cameras.[/quote]. So, we have a guestimated that 41%+ is operated by commercial operatives protecting their goods etc from shop-lifters (thieves). From this calculation, the same report suggests that London has around 1/2 million cameras and when adjusted for the UK population a figure of 4.2 million is reached. So, from the content of CCTV usage in a couple of streets they have assumed a laughable figure of 4.2 million. The reference below says clearly [quote] If Putney High Street was more representative of the wider world, you'd expect, according to the authors' methodology, there to be more than half a million business CCTV cameras in London. [/quote] http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/factcheck+how+many+cctv+cameras/2291167[^] Well Henize, I think you over worry about Big Brother.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6108496.stm[^] "There are up to 4.2m CCTV cameras in Britain - about one for every 14 people."
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6108496.stm[^] "There are up to 4.2m CCTV cameras in Britain - about one for every 14 people."
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
"There are up to 4.2m CCTV cameras in Britain - about one for every 14 people."
Correct. Exactly as stated by that very odd calculation pointed to in my earlier reply. Had you read the web page link I referenced then you would understand the inaccuracy of that calculated claim. And the BBC page you link to is another source on the same subject drawing the same conclusion.
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The cameras don't exist in your mind. And the simple and inexpensive RFID system is somehow impossible only because you don't like the idea, but the fact is you will be getting them within the next 10 years. The technology is here and its cheap.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The cameras don't exist in your mind
Yes, they do. I have a grand total of one at one of my schools. And since I believe that they exist, they exist in my mind
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
And the simple and inexpensive RFID system is somehow impossible only because you don't like the idea
You may have a point there. I seem to have imposed my dislikes upon others. But even so, the idea is very shaky. RFIDs can be cloned*, and that makes them unlikely to be used as a possible tracker even if the governments were planning such a thing *Citation: Reuters
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
but the fact is you will be getting them within the next 10 years
Don't make me laugh. Do you seriously believe that in a decade's time we will still be using something which was created in 1983 (Patent 4,384,288)? Bear in mind that civilisation appears to be heading towards a technological singularity
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The technology is here and its cheap.
I'm not denying that. But the infrastructure isn't there to support it. To put it in would take a lot of money, and would need to be implemented globally. It would also have to be secret. So, what you're proposing is that an infrastructure would be created by the governments of the entire planet, without their citizens ever catching even a hint of this. And then the RFID chips would have to be distributed without the manufacturers knowing what was going on. Does this sound feasible to you?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The cameras don't exist in your mind
Yes, they do. I have a grand total of one at one of my schools. And since I believe that they exist, they exist in my mind
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
And the simple and inexpensive RFID system is somehow impossible only because you don't like the idea
You may have a point there. I seem to have imposed my dislikes upon others. But even so, the idea is very shaky. RFIDs can be cloned*, and that makes them unlikely to be used as a possible tracker even if the governments were planning such a thing *Citation: Reuters
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
but the fact is you will be getting them within the next 10 years
Don't make me laugh. Do you seriously believe that in a decade's time we will still be using something which was created in 1983 (Patent 4,384,288)? Bear in mind that civilisation appears to be heading towards a technological singularity
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The technology is here and its cheap.
I'm not denying that. But the infrastructure isn't there to support it. To put it in would take a lot of money, and would need to be implemented globally. It would also have to be secret. So, what you're proposing is that an infrastructure would be created by the governments of the entire planet, without their citizens ever catching even a hint of this. And then the RFID chips would have to be distributed without the manufacturers knowing what was going on. Does this sound feasible to you?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Computafreak wrote:
It would also have to be secret
Or the population would have to embrace it, like they do with the public surveillance. The EU is already funding and working on implementation of RFID license plates for automated ticket systems and traffic monitoring. The system is capable of automatically giving you a ticket for tailgating. Get a little too close to another vehicle and bam, ticket. Don't think that Europe and the UK will ever be able to put a stop to this technology, you will be the first to get it. You can protest by sitting on the side of a sidewalk silently with tea and cake, but that is about it. http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/26/2620.asp[^]
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
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Computafreak wrote:
It would also have to be secret
Or the population would have to embrace it, like they do with the public surveillance. The EU is already funding and working on implementation of RFID license plates for automated ticket systems and traffic monitoring. The system is capable of automatically giving you a ticket for tailgating. Get a little too close to another vehicle and bam, ticket. Don't think that Europe and the UK will ever be able to put a stop to this technology, you will be the first to get it. You can protest by sitting on the side of a sidewalk silently with tea and cake, but that is about it. http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/26/2620.asp[^]
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
Cars != people. And the technology would be highly ineffective, even if it was implemented. Did you not read the link I gave you in my previous post here about cloning RFID? The apparent 'solution' is hackable. Given the tools, most people could do it in about five minutes. That puts governments off immediately (unless the department making it is a quango, in which case it won't have any results anyway)
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
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Cars != people. And the technology would be highly ineffective, even if it was implemented. Did you not read the link I gave you in my previous post here about cloning RFID? The apparent 'solution' is hackable. Given the tools, most people could do it in about five minutes. That puts governments off immediately (unless the department making it is a quango, in which case it won't have any results anyway)
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Don't passports have RFIDs in them? I saw a case that shielded your passport from scanning on a geek site once.
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Don't passports have RFIDs in them? I saw a case that shielded your passport from scanning on a geek site once.
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Cars != people. And the technology would be highly ineffective, even if it was implemented. Did you not read the link I gave you in my previous post here about cloning RFID? The apparent 'solution' is hackable. Given the tools, most people could do it in about five minutes. That puts governments off immediately (unless the department making it is a quango, in which case it won't have any results anyway)
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
The only reason you are making a fuss about it is because you don't like it. It doesn't matter how you feel about it, it does not matter how you rationalize it, its coming real soon. It starts with cars, ID cards, passports, product UCP codes, and finally inside you. Technology evolves exponentially and the power of government over your life steadily increases. You already have millions of cameras all over Britain, 500 thousand in Lindon alone. Face it.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
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The only reason you are making a fuss about it is because you don't like it. It doesn't matter how you feel about it, it does not matter how you rationalize it, its coming real soon. It starts with cars, ID cards, passports, product UCP codes, and finally inside you. Technology evolves exponentially and the power of government over your life steadily increases. You already have millions of cameras all over Britain, 500 thousand in Lindon alone. Face it.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
Poppycock. You're making outlandish claims, which reflect your warped view of reality. The study you refer to used only a small London high street, which warped the figures and assumed every city was a similar size; obviously untrue. Technology is evolving, but this doesn't necessarily mean that power of government is as well. You have no rational proof of such a monitoring society coming. All you can do is attempt to elicit an emotional response. Sadly, it appears to be working. For that reason (amongst others), I'm ending this conversation. I'll let you have the last word if you want; at least now I know who's the weirdest out of the freakish combination of Troy and Gabriella
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
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Poppycock. You're making outlandish claims, which reflect your warped view of reality. The study you refer to used only a small London high street, which warped the figures and assumed every city was a similar size; obviously untrue. Technology is evolving, but this doesn't necessarily mean that power of government is as well. You have no rational proof of such a monitoring society coming. All you can do is attempt to elicit an emotional response. Sadly, it appears to be working. For that reason (amongst others), I'm ending this conversation. I'll let you have the last word if you want; at least now I know who's the weirdest out of the freakish combination of Troy and Gabriella
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Computafreak wrote:
Poppycock. You're making outlandish claims, which reflect your warped view of reality. The study you refer to used only a small London high street, which warped the figures and assumed every city was a similar size; obviously untrue. Technology is evolving, but this doesn't necessarily mean that power of government is as well.
Translated as Ears Covered[La La La La, I can't here you, La La La La]
Computafreak wrote:
You have no rational proof of such a monitoring society coming.
Its already here, just escalating. You even have an RFID in your passport. :laugh:
Computafreak wrote:
For that reason (amongst others), I'm ending this conversation. I'll let you have the last word if you want; at least now I know who's the weirdest out of the freakish combination of Troy and Gabriella
Yes, I'm a freak because I don't want to live in a society where I am watched and tracked by millions of cameras and RFID systems. I am a weirdo because I don't want to live in a big brother tyranny. I'm a freak weirdo because logic and truth is an enemy and a menace to society. I'm a freak because I don't think people diverse to be brainwashed by propaganda and abused by a tyrannic government.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
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Christian Graus wrote:
because they are already under pressure, because of their lack of value to society.
I guess they should be sterilized and sent to a labor camp or something.:~
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
Why do you say 'they', when I am talking about you ? And why do you try to put these words in my mouth ? It's the opposite of anything I've ever said
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp