Freedom
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Question - if one person has a gun, and is poor, dependant on welfare and limited in choices by not having money, and another does not have a gun, but has adequate personal wealth to be able to live their life exactly as they choose, who is more free ? Question - if one person lives in a society where almost all criminals are armed, and they own a gun, and another person lives in a place where only the worst criminals carry a gun, and does not own a gun, which of those people is better able to defend themself if attacked ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Why are you asking this?
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Ever heard of hyperinflation?
Apart from money invested in various places, I own two properties and plan to buy a third. At a minimum, I want a property I can give to each child as they leave home, to either sell, or live in. Obvioulsy, once I own property, as prices go up, so does the value of my investment.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Obvioulsy, once I own property, as prices go up, so does the value of my investment.
Not if anyone is buying. If demand is low, you won't get jack shit for it. If hyperinflation is kicking, then NO, people won't be buying houses. You will barely be able to afford food, that is if you have a job. You said you already lost 25% of your income do to the little inflation we have now. You are going to loose your savings, and your income. You are going to fall hard, and you deserve it because you are too smug about your supreme existence. Little do you realize, your existence is extremely fragile and there are hoards of people waiting below to rip you to shreds.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
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My main point is that guns do not make you free. He is yet to actually present a reason to believe otherwise.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Did you know that if you fold a dollar bill in a certain way you can create other images on the bill by hiding and manipulating the normal images. That is what you do with your short-circuited logic. I never said owning a gun makes anyone free. I said Americans have more freedoms under the constitution than Australians could ever dream of having, specifically concerning one of the most important rights; the right to bear arms.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
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Christian Graus wrote:
Obvioulsy, once I own property, as prices go up, so does the value of my investment.
Not if anyone is buying. If demand is low, you won't get jack shit for it. If hyperinflation is kicking, then NO, people won't be buying houses. You will barely be able to afford food, that is if you have a job. You said you already lost 25% of your income do to the little inflation we have now. You are going to loose your savings, and your income. You are going to fall hard, and you deserve it because you are too smug about your supreme existence. Little do you realize, your existence is extremely fragile and there are hoards of people waiting below to rip you to shreds.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Not if anyone is buying. If demand is low, you won't get jack sh*t for it.
Yes, it's true that the market moves in cycles, and people who over-extend themselves will lose money, because they are forced to sell. Just like, in a stock market downturn, people who need to sell, lose their shirt. People who ride it out, are just fine.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
If hyperinflation is kicking, then NO, people won't be buying houses.
Thankfully, people always need somewhere to live, and my position is that I own two houses outright, and intend to own three in the next couple of years. Therefore, I will be making income from rent, not worrying about property values.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You will barely be able to afford food, that is if you have a job.
If I were to be unemployed, the rent on two properties, for someone who owns three, is more than enough to pay for food and services. That's without considering how much food I can grow for myself between the 16 acres that I currently own. We are close to being set up to be able to grow about 80% of our food, year round.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You said you already lost 25% of your income do to the little inflation we have now
No, not quite. The exchange rate has been on a roller coaster ride, because of the downturn. The average exchange rate is around .75. It is .80 right now, so only a little against me. It got as low as .60, and it did in fact jump overnight, when the car company bailout happened. Before that, my financial advisor thought it was headed for .50. In contrast, leading up to the crisis, the rate got close to 1.00. To put all of this in perspective, at the start of the year, I was making 5 times the average wage where I live, and I now make about 4 times the average wage. So, I am not hurting.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You are going to loose your savings, and your income.
Why would I ? If I am not over extended, then I will never be forced to sell. I am a conservative investor, precisely because I don't worship money, or work hard to get all the money I can. I try to respond to the fruits of my hard work and good luck by making sure I do the best I can to provide for myself and my family in the coming years, and wh
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Did you know that if you fold a dollar bill in a certain way you can create other images on the bill by hiding and manipulating the normal images. That is what you do with your short-circuited logic. I never said owning a gun makes anyone free. I said Americans have more freedoms under the constitution than Australians could ever dream of having, specifically concerning one of the most important rights; the right to bear arms.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
. I never said owning a gun makes anyone free. I said Americans have more freedoms under the constitution than Australians could ever dream of having, specifically concerning one of the most important rights; the right to bear arms.
And I explored in depth how that's not a meaningful freedom at all. It gives you the freedom to be more likely to die horribily. That's about it. What other 'freedoms' do you think you have that I do not ? Seriously, can you name one more ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Why are you asking this?
Read the 'four fallacies of smart people thread'. That was CSS starting a new thread in response to something I said. In that thread, I basically asked these questions over and over in response, and the CSS replies were gibberish, like 'less is more, slavery is freedom', etc. In other words, he can't answer me. He asked me a number of questions which I answered in depth and he would ignore the answers and continue in the same pattern. So, I was consolidating my main questions and asking them clearly and unadorned, to see if he would answer. Not post in response, but actually answer.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
. I never said owning a gun makes anyone free. I said Americans have more freedoms under the constitution than Australians could ever dream of having, specifically concerning one of the most important rights; the right to bear arms.
And I explored in depth how that's not a meaningful freedom at all. It gives you the freedom to be more likely to die horribily. That's about it. What other 'freedoms' do you think you have that I do not ? Seriously, can you name one more ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
That is your horribly skewed opinion.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
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That is your horribly skewed opinion.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
Which I have laid out logically, and you have utterly failed to respond to meaningfully.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Which I have laid out logically, and you have utterly failed to respond to meaningfully.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Which I have laid out logically, and you have utterly failed to respond to meaningfully.
You have a real bigotry and prejudice towards original American values and the liberties and rights we are guaranteed under the constitution. You enjoy your petty power trips when you see the people around the world suffer because of the decisions of the powerful men that are steering society at their will. Your fellow countrymen and mine in the USA are being royally screwed out of their jobs, homes, liberties, futures, and their children's futures because of the decisions of our masters. That doesn't matter to you because all those people are just petty carbon feeders. You want even more though, you said it yourself that you think it would be a good idea if people around the world were forcibly sterilized and forced abortions. You think it would be great to tax the life out of anyone who decides to do anything other than what they are told to do. You are a rotten bigoted prejudice soulless individual, and don't say your not because you throw a few bread crums at some starving Africans. You are scum.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
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Christian Graus wrote:
Which I have laid out logically, and you have utterly failed to respond to meaningfully.
You have a real bigotry and prejudice towards original American values and the liberties and rights we are guaranteed under the constitution. You enjoy your petty power trips when you see the people around the world suffer because of the decisions of the powerful men that are steering society at their will. Your fellow countrymen and mine in the USA are being royally screwed out of their jobs, homes, liberties, futures, and their children's futures because of the decisions of our masters. That doesn't matter to you because all those people are just petty carbon feeders. You want even more though, you said it yourself that you think it would be a good idea if people around the world were forcibly sterilized and forced abortions. You think it would be great to tax the life out of anyone who decides to do anything other than what they are told to do. You are a rotten bigoted prejudice soulless individual, and don't say your not because you throw a few bread crums at some starving Africans. You are scum.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You have a real bigotry and prejudice towards original American values and the liberties and rights we are guaranteed under the constitution.
Not at all. I just have a logical response to the way that gun nuts have twisted the constitution beyond a form that would be recognisable by the founding fathers. And I've read a lot of US history, from which to make that statement. As usual, I write detailed responses to you and you don't answer anything I say. Above, you didn't even reply to my post.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You enjoy your petty power trips when you see the people around the world suffer because of the decisions of the powerful men that are steering society at their will.
Tell me how I do this.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Your fellow countrymen and mine in the USA are being royally screwed out of their jobs, homes, liberties, futures, and their children's futures because of the decisions of our masters
There's probably some truth in that. What is your point ?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
you said it yourself that you think it would be a good idea if people around the world were forcibly sterilized and forced abortions
Liar. I have NEVER talked about forced abortions, or sterilization. I've talked about allowing one birth per family, to control population. My plan had ideas to get around the fact that forced abortions would never be acceptable. And, even then, I said I knew there was no way it could happen, but that without it, we are screwed.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You think it would be great to tax the life out of anyone who decides to do anything other than what they are told to do.
Liar. When did I say that ?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You are a rotten bigoted prejudice soulless individual, and don't say your not because you throw a few bread crums at some starving Africans. You are scum.
I see my response above hit a nerve, even if you didn't reply. Please define my bigotry, and my prejudice. Towards whom is it directed, and how have I shown you that I have these qualities ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You have a real bigotry and prejudice towards original American values and the liberties and rights we are guaranteed under the constitution.
Not at all. I just have a logical response to the way that gun nuts have twisted the constitution beyond a form that would be recognisable by the founding fathers. And I've read a lot of US history, from which to make that statement. As usual, I write detailed responses to you and you don't answer anything I say. Above, you didn't even reply to my post.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You enjoy your petty power trips when you see the people around the world suffer because of the decisions of the powerful men that are steering society at their will.
Tell me how I do this.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Your fellow countrymen and mine in the USA are being royally screwed out of their jobs, homes, liberties, futures, and their children's futures because of the decisions of our masters
There's probably some truth in that. What is your point ?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
you said it yourself that you think it would be a good idea if people around the world were forcibly sterilized and forced abortions
Liar. I have NEVER talked about forced abortions, or sterilization. I've talked about allowing one birth per family, to control population. My plan had ideas to get around the fact that forced abortions would never be acceptable. And, even then, I said I knew there was no way it could happen, but that without it, we are screwed.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You think it would be great to tax the life out of anyone who decides to do anything other than what they are told to do.
Liar. When did I say that ?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You are a rotten bigoted prejudice soulless individual, and don't say your not because you throw a few bread crums at some starving Africans. You are scum.
I see my response above hit a nerve, even if you didn't reply. Please define my bigotry, and my prejudice. Towards whom is it directed, and how have I shown you that I have these qualities ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my
Christian Graus wrote:
Not at all. I just have a logical response to the way that gun nuts have twisted the constitution beyond a form that would be recognisable by the founding fathers. And I've read a lot of US history, from which to make that statement.
There you go with you lies and twisted logic. The constitution guarantees the right to bear arms, plain and simple. The militia is the citizens.
Christian Graus wrote:
As usual, I write detailed responses to you and you don't answer anything I say. Above, you didn't even reply to my post.
You write a bunch of brainwashed bullshit. You can try to construct something elaborate, tie things together nicely, invoke strong emotions and then twist them, add some tedium and fluff to bog down readers, create thought loops and "spaghetti code" type logic, but it doesn't work on me. I know what the constitution says, I know what my rights are. You don't like that, that is too fucking bad. About half of all Americans have at least one gun, most of them would send you on your way if you told them they didn't have the right. If you have a problem with it than stay the hell out of my country you socialist piece of trash.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
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Christian Graus wrote:
Not at all. I just have a logical response to the way that gun nuts have twisted the constitution beyond a form that would be recognisable by the founding fathers. And I've read a lot of US history, from which to make that statement.
There you go with you lies and twisted logic. The constitution guarantees the right to bear arms, plain and simple. The militia is the citizens.
Christian Graus wrote:
As usual, I write detailed responses to you and you don't answer anything I say. Above, you didn't even reply to my post.
You write a bunch of brainwashed bullshit. You can try to construct something elaborate, tie things together nicely, invoke strong emotions and then twist them, add some tedium and fluff to bog down readers, create thought loops and "spaghetti code" type logic, but it doesn't work on me. I know what the constitution says, I know what my rights are. You don't like that, that is too fucking bad. About half of all Americans have at least one gun, most of them would send you on your way if you told them they didn't have the right. If you have a problem with it than stay the hell out of my country you socialist piece of trash.
"The task of saving the earth's environment must and will become the central organizing principle of the post-Cold War world." Senator Al Gore Putting People First 1992 ------ "The sacrifice of personal existence is necessary to secure the preservation of the species." Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf 1923 ------ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." O'Brien to Winston George Orwell 1984 1949
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There you go with you lies and twisted logic. The constitution guarantees the right to bear arms, plain and simple. The militia is the citizens.
There's a lot wrong with this. The main thing would be that the US actually has an army now, and has no need of a militia. The other thing is that your gun ownership is the norm, and your government is not scared of you. So, all it does, is increase the murder rate.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You write a bunch of brainwashed bullsh*t.
So, respond and explain why that is the case. You can't. Well, at least, you certainly never try.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You can try to construct something elaborate, tie things together nicely, invoke strong emotions and then twist them, add some tedium and fluff to bog down readers, create thought loops and "spaghetti code" type logic, but it doesn't work on me.
I loved below where someone else jumped in to let you know that what I'm saying is perfectly logical. Now, I may still be wrong, but you need to respond logically and in a way that shows you understand my points, before rejecting them. What you do instead, just shows a lack of intellectual ability.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
I know what the constitution says, I know what my rights are.
No, you know how the gun lobby has taught you to interpret the constitution. I asked you to tell me one more freedom you have that I do not. I see you can't do that. Do you even know anything else the constitution says, apart from the precious right to kill each other ? Do you know how it was written, and in what circumstances ? What do you REALLY know about it ?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You don't like that, that is too f***ing bad
I could care less if you carry a gun. Really. I do note that again I asked a lot of questions and you have ignored them. You called me a lot of things and accused me of various positions I have never taken. Now you change the subject when I ask you to tell me where I said those things. Doesn't that tell you something ?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
About half of all Americans have at least one gun, most of them would send you on your way if you told them they didn't have the right.
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Question - if one person has a gun, and is poor, dependant on welfare and limited in choices by not having money, and another does not have a gun, but has adequate personal wealth to be able to live their life exactly as they choose, who is more free ? Question - if one person lives in a society where almost all criminals are armed, and they own a gun, and another person lives in a place where only the worst criminals carry a gun, and does not own a gun, which of those people is better able to defend themself if attacked ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Question - if one person has a gun, and is poor, dependant on welfare and limited in choices by not having money, and another does not have a gun, but has adequate personal wealth to be able to live their life exactly as they choose, who is more free ? Question - if one person lives in a society where almost all criminals are armed, and they own a gun, and another person lives in a place where only the worst criminals carry a gun, and does not own a gun, which of those people is better able to defend themself if attacked ?
You don't really understand "freedom," do you? Nor do you seem to have a firm grasp on "criminality."
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Christian Graus wrote:
Question - if one person has a gun, and is poor, dependant on welfare and limited in choices by not having money, and another does not have a gun, but has adequate personal wealth to be able to live their life exactly as they choose, who is more free ? Question - if one person lives in a society where almost all criminals are armed, and they own a gun, and another person lives in a place where only the worst criminals carry a gun, and does not own a gun, which of those people is better able to defend themself if attacked ?
You don't really understand "freedom," do you? Nor do you seem to have a firm grasp on "criminality."
Ilíon wrote:
You don't really understand "freedom," do you?
What leads you to that false conclusion ? How do you define freedom ?
Ilíon wrote:
Nor do you seem to have a firm grasp on "criminality."
How do you figure ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Ilíon wrote:
You don't really understand "freedom," do you?
What leads you to that false conclusion ? How do you define freedom ?
Ilíon wrote:
Nor do you seem to have a firm grasp on "criminality."
How do you figure ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
It would seem that thier definition of freedom is quite simple THE RIGHT TO ARM BEARS opps sorry meant the right to bare arms (wait a minute the first one actually makes more sense) this seems to be thier defining argument guns = free / no guns = slave all else seems irrelivent to them. the fact that ciminals will allways be more prone to the use of guns than civilians seems to be overlooked as is the fact than in any group of people there will be a large proportion with personaility issues, and to provide ufettered access to firearms for these people is the sign of stupidity, and this is what they are proposing, the right for everyone to carry whatever gun(s) they please, wether these people are "normal" or insane, sucicidal or homicidal, stable or sufering depression. and even the normal ones may have a bad day at work or broken up with the misses or any one of a thousdand reasons why they suddenly snap and go postal what a lovely world that would be
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It would seem that thier definition of freedom is quite simple THE RIGHT TO ARM BEARS opps sorry meant the right to bare arms (wait a minute the first one actually makes more sense) this seems to be thier defining argument guns = free / no guns = slave all else seems irrelivent to them. the fact that ciminals will allways be more prone to the use of guns than civilians seems to be overlooked as is the fact than in any group of people there will be a large proportion with personaility issues, and to provide ufettered access to firearms for these people is the sign of stupidity, and this is what they are proposing, the right for everyone to carry whatever gun(s) they please, wether these people are "normal" or insane, sucicidal or homicidal, stable or sufering depression. and even the normal ones may have a bad day at work or broken up with the misses or any one of a thousdand reasons why they suddenly snap and go postal what a lovely world that would be
Alex hogarth wrote:
reasons why they suddenly snap and go postal what a lovely world that would be
Well, you're describing America. It is a nice place, but it's obviously less safe for the free access to guns that they tend to have there.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.