Stereotypes and Cliches
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Paul Watson wrote: Though I find Swedish girls highly agreeable... Uh uh. They're way too liberated here.. :-D Ok, any militant feminists reading this: It was a joke! -- Please state the nature of your medical emergency.
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Ok, any militant feminists reading this: It was a joke! Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! That is exactly what I mean. You and I make a just-for-fun stereotype joke about Swedish girls and we have to cover ourselves by putting up Anti-Feminist/Anti-Non-Typical-Swedish-Girl shields just to save some face. We have to grovel so as not to be branded as chauvinist pigs (and the sad thing is that the feminists do not realise they are just perpetuating the cycle of stereotyping by calling us chauvinist pigs for making a joke about Swedish girls and their attitude towards sex. So we all end up in the same boat while one appears to the rest of the world to have the moral high ground... pffft! Sick of it!) Really we should not need to, and I am sick of having to do so. As Paul Riley said, people like that just need to grow up.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa -
Shog9 wrote: When it becomes dangerous though, is when a stereotype casts such a negative light on a person that they cannot be dealt with in any normal way. I totally agree. I guess my beef with all the negative energy towards stereotypes is the people who just automatically assume I do not have the intelligence to question a stereotype or at least realise when it "applies" and when it does not. I do, honest! As you say there are far too many of us not to have to resort to broad categorisations to function in this world. We simply have to group people, at least initially. We have to start somewhere. It is the people who cling to stereotypes or enforce it without possibility of parol that give stereotypes a bad name. Of course saying all that there is absolutely no way we won't be swayed by a stereotype. If we weren't swayable then a stereotype would fade and become utterly useless. So sadly some people will start out on a lower rung in my mind to other people, simply because of a stereotype I have heard or read. I am human and I challenge anybody to truthfully say they can be 100% open-minded towards a new person after having learnt they are X, Y and Z. You can try, I try, but that is all we can do. Shog9 wrote: Aw, yer just a drunk South African, whadda you know? Sober since the begining of the year (at which point I was so horribly drunk I gave up vodka and became an atheist... :rolleyes:) But give me 20 more days and I will break that spell with a bang! :-D
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaPaul Watson wrote: Sober since the begining of the year What? You give me a stereotype and then later reveal it's not applicable? :mad: Hmm, ok, uh... "Long-winded South African" work for ya? :D Shog9 ------ Crazy lady with the shiny shoes, where are you? Kick your feet and calm the space that makes you hollow
Live, Insomnia And The Hole In The Universe
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Ok, any militant feminists reading this: It was a joke! Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! That is exactly what I mean. You and I make a just-for-fun stereotype joke about Swedish girls and we have to cover ourselves by putting up Anti-Feminist/Anti-Non-Typical-Swedish-Girl shields just to save some face. We have to grovel so as not to be branded as chauvinist pigs (and the sad thing is that the feminists do not realise they are just perpetuating the cycle of stereotyping by calling us chauvinist pigs for making a joke about Swedish girls and their attitude towards sex. So we all end up in the same boat while one appears to the rest of the world to have the moral high ground... pffft! Sick of it!) Really we should not need to, and I am sick of having to do so. As Paul Riley said, people like that just need to grow up.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaAmen brother! -- Please state the nature of your medical emergency.
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Paul Riley wrote: I have to admit that in all honesty, drunk isn't the first thing that springs to mind when I think of South Africa Well when I was doing my list of stereotypes I thought "I had better put South African in or reap the wrath of critics saying I am a hypocrite." But being SAn I could not think of much, so I just lumped us in with the Aussies (who do drink like fish, just go to London and find the nearest pub showing cricket or rugby. Filled with drunk Aussies and South Africans.) So what stereotype of us Southies comes to your mind then? I am actually quite interested. Paul Riley wrote: then they're rarely disappointed (especially considering your English stereotype ). :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: Ahhh now there is one great Brit stereotype: That of the underdog coming out tops and breaking expectations. I have always admired that in the Brits.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaPaul Watson wrote: So what stereotype of us Southies comes to your mind then? I am actually quite interested. Actually, THIS[^] is usually the first thing that springs to my mind. Old but a classic from the Spitting Image crowd, I'll never forget it. Oddly, I can't find the lyrics anywhere on the net. Paul
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Ok so I am sick of people telling me not to use cliches and that stereotypes are wrong. Stereotypes and cliches have come into common usage because they actually are based on some truth. If they weren't then they wouldn't have become what they have become. Italians are greasy, Americans loud, Greeks smell of fish, Australians and South Africans are drunks and Englishmen are lousy lovers. Sorry but there is a big enough percentage of truth in that for their to be a stereotype around it. Stereotypes do not magically occur, they are not generated by one sailors ramblings about some strange land. They are built upon the backs of thousands of opinions and experiences. The same goes for cliches. Cliches are built on usage, because how the cliche says what it says is a good way to say it. And yes of course as with any rule there are exceptions. Obviously don't take stereotypes so to heart that you don't let an Englishman into your bed or leave an Italian near a fire. And don't go spouting cliches left right and centre, say something your own way. But don't go AWOL when you hear a stereotype or a cliche. Or do you disagree?
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaSo that makes me an "Angerlo-Italiani-Ostrallyan-Amerikun-Seuth Efrican"? * You have to say it out loud to fully appreciate it :cool:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Whales are drinking all our water and eating our sailors...
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So that makes me an "Angerlo-Italiani-Ostrallyan-Amerikun-Seuth Efrican"? * You have to say it out loud to fully appreciate it :cool:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Whales are drinking all our water and eating our sailors...
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Paul Watson wrote: Though I find Swedish girls highly agreeable... Uh uh. They're way too liberated here.. :-D Ok, any militant feminists reading this: It was a joke! -- Please state the nature of your medical emergency.
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: They're way too liberated here.. Can I import some of them? Word of the day: Rotundacrat
Extra Credit will be awarded for: Quasimobo... -
Paul Watson wrote: So what stereotype of us Southies comes to your mind then? I am actually quite interested. Actually, THIS[^] is usually the first thing that springs to my mind. Old but a classic from the Spitting Image crowd, I'll never forget it. Oddly, I can't find the lyrics anywhere on the net. Paul
Hmmm... I actually have met a nice South African. She was an exchange student in my High School by the name of Cathy Gurney, and a nicer person I have rarely met. It was very saddenning to learn that, because of her visit to the US and her exposure to undesirable racial attitudes, she would be watched forever more by the police upon her return, and would never have a chance to be accepted into the trusted body politic. What a sacrifice to make for the opportunity to see and learn about a new land...:( Word of the day: Rotundacrat
Extra Credit will be awarded for: Quasimobo... -
Ok so I am sick of people telling me not to use cliches and that stereotypes are wrong. Stereotypes and cliches have come into common usage because they actually are based on some truth. If they weren't then they wouldn't have become what they have become. Italians are greasy, Americans loud, Greeks smell of fish, Australians and South Africans are drunks and Englishmen are lousy lovers. Sorry but there is a big enough percentage of truth in that for their to be a stereotype around it. Stereotypes do not magically occur, they are not generated by one sailors ramblings about some strange land. They are built upon the backs of thousands of opinions and experiences. The same goes for cliches. Cliches are built on usage, because how the cliche says what it says is a good way to say it. And yes of course as with any rule there are exceptions. Obviously don't take stereotypes so to heart that you don't let an Englishman into your bed or leave an Italian near a fire. And don't go spouting cliches left right and centre, say something your own way. But don't go AWOL when you hear a stereotype or a cliche. Or do you disagree?
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaPaul Watson wrote: Obviously don't take stereotypes so to heart that you don't let an Englishman into your bed or leave an Italian near a fire. And don't go spouting cliches left right and centre, say something your own way. Just don't let me anywhere near a sheep either. I have lost count of the number of illegitimate lambs I am putting through school.
qwote undur construktshun!?!!
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Hmmm... I actually have met a nice South African. She was an exchange student in my High School by the name of Cathy Gurney, and a nicer person I have rarely met. It was very saddenning to learn that, because of her visit to the US and her exposure to undesirable racial attitudes, she would be watched forever more by the police upon her return, and would never have a chance to be accepted into the trusted body politic. What a sacrifice to make for the opportunity to see and learn about a new land...:( Word of the day: Rotundacrat
Extra Credit will be awarded for: Quasimobo...And that, Roger, is the exact point of this thread. I've met a nice South African too, several in fact. One that I met in Florida last year... ooo, if only I could have been single for a while :rolleyes: However, it's a stereotype that South Africans are arrogant bastards with no sense of humour, and not a completely unfair stereotype in the days of apartheid when that was written (which was my point about countries that are trying to throw off an image). I have ABSOLUTELY no doubt that Paul is a nice South African and I know he has a sense of humour, so I know that I can post a link to that without having to qualify it by saying "remember this was written in the days of apartheid" or "I'm sure this doesn't apply to you, Paul". More people should be like that in my opinion. Say what you like about the English, I won't be offended. I may argue the point if you make a serious political statement about the country but if you make a glib generalisation then why should I care? Paul
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So that makes me an "Angerlo-Italiani-Ostrallyan-Amerikun-Seuth Efrican"? * You have to say it out loud to fully appreciate it :cool:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Whales are drinking all our water and eating our sailors...
David Wulff wrote: Seuth Efrican Have you seen a show called "Time Team"? It's a show about archeology. They dig stuff up all over the UK - mostly roman stuff :) Anyway, there's this tall red headed archeologist on the show which talks with an accent just like you wrote - Seuth African. Do you know if the guy on the show is south african or if he's just talking with yet another UK accent? :) -- Please state the nature of your medical emergency.
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Well, at least you don't smell of fish... Shog9 ------ Crazy lady with the shiny shoes, where are you? Kick your feet and calm the space that makes you hollow
Live, Insomnia And The Hole In The Universe
*groan* So predictable Josh, I'm disapointed in you! :((
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Whales are drinking all our water and eating our sailors...
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David Wulff wrote: Seuth Efrican Have you seen a show called "Time Team"? It's a show about archeology. They dig stuff up all over the UK - mostly roman stuff :) Anyway, there's this tall red headed archeologist on the show which talks with an accent just like you wrote - Seuth African. Do you know if the guy on the show is south african or if he's just talking with yet another UK accent? :) -- Please state the nature of your medical emergency.
I have seen Time Team, and I do vaguely remember the guy you are talking about, but I can't say. The typical South African accent for me (based on those I have heard on the telly anyway) is "Seuth Efrican". You'd better ask Paul or one of the other SA's if that is actually correct.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Whales are drinking all our water and eating our sailors...
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David Wulff wrote: Seuth Efrican Have you seen a show called "Time Team"? It's a show about archeology. They dig stuff up all over the UK - mostly roman stuff :) Anyway, there's this tall red headed archeologist on the show which talks with an accent just like you wrote - Seuth African. Do you know if the guy on the show is south african or if he's just talking with yet another UK accent? :) -- Please state the nature of your medical emergency.
The South African accent, to me at least, sounds like a Cockney who's spent too long in Australia. John Thaw does a great job of it in Cry Freedom... that guy could really act. Paul
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Paul Watson wrote: Obviously don't take stereotypes so to heart that you don't let an Englishman into your bed or leave an Italian near a fire. And don't go spouting cliches left right and centre, say something your own way. Just don't let me anywhere near a sheep either. I have lost count of the number of illegitimate lambs I am putting through school.
qwote undur construktshun!?!!
Simon Walton wrote: I have lost count of the number of illegitimate lambs I am putting through school. I can't believe you just went and offered up that sacrifice to the god of quotes. So in the name of Quotilitation (my new religion where you, for titilations sake, just quote people because it has all been said before and said better) I claim your sacrifice... Om.* * God, one too many Bertrams VO Brandy there :rolleyes:
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa -
Hmmm... I actually have met a nice South African. She was an exchange student in my High School by the name of Cathy Gurney, and a nicer person I have rarely met. It was very saddenning to learn that, because of her visit to the US and her exposure to undesirable racial attitudes, she would be watched forever more by the police upon her return, and would never have a chance to be accepted into the trusted body politic. What a sacrifice to make for the opportunity to see and learn about a new land...:( Word of the day: Rotundacrat
Extra Credit will be awarded for: Quasimobo...Roger Wright wrote: It was very saddenning to learn that, because of her visit to the US and her exposure to undesirable racial attitudes, she would be watched forever more by the police upon her return, and would never have a chance to be accepted into the trusted body politic. What a sacrifice to make for the opportunity to see and learn about a new land... Must have been during the heydays of apartheid. I was born in 1979 and spent 5 years of the remaining 14 apartheid years in Zimbabwe so I really know very little about what apartheid was actually like. Funnily enough what you described probably still happens, but in reverse, by the very people who fought for freedom and in an attempt to destroy mechanisms like that. Ironic huh? We all become what we hate the most...
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa -
Paul Watson wrote: So what stereotype of us Southies comes to your mind then? I am actually quite interested. Actually, THIS[^] is usually the first thing that springs to my mind. Old but a classic from the Spitting Image crowd, I'll never forget it. Oddly, I can't find the lyrics anywhere on the net. Paul
Paul Riley wrote: Actually, THIS[^] is usually the first thing that springs to my mind. Old but a classic from the Spitting Image crowd, I'll never forget it. :laugh::laugh::laugh: That is a classic song, bloody hilarious. There is a definite rivalry, born of sport, between us and the Aussies (the bloke singing is obviously Aussie.) Unfortunatley it can turn a bit nasty at times (from both sides.)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa -
And that, Roger, is the exact point of this thread. I've met a nice South African too, several in fact. One that I met in Florida last year... ooo, if only I could have been single for a while :rolleyes: However, it's a stereotype that South Africans are arrogant bastards with no sense of humour, and not a completely unfair stereotype in the days of apartheid when that was written (which was my point about countries that are trying to throw off an image). I have ABSOLUTELY no doubt that Paul is a nice South African and I know he has a sense of humour, so I know that I can post a link to that without having to qualify it by saying "remember this was written in the days of apartheid" or "I'm sure this doesn't apply to you, Paul". More people should be like that in my opinion. Say what you like about the English, I won't be offended. I may argue the point if you make a serious political statement about the country but if you make a glib generalisation then why should I care? Paul
Paul Riley wrote: And that, Roger, is the exact point of this thread. :-D Paul Riley wrote: However, it's a stereotype that South Africans are arrogant bastards with no sense of humour, and not a completely unfair stereotype in the days of apartheid when that was written Wow I never knew that. I guess in hindsight I can see why you say that, why people thought that. But as you say that is an apartheid legacy, especially seeing as the "arrogant bastards with no sense of humour" make up something like 10% of the entire population (of the 48 million South Africans only 10% are white, and only about 3% of that are the Afrikaaners who are seen as archetypical South Africans. Isn't it amazing that 3% of a country could dominate the rest?) I am an English white South African, meaning I come from the British colonists and I also grew up seeing the Afrikaaners (from the Dutch) as humourless, arrogant and unimaginative people. Well now I am in love with an Afrikaans girl and I see how wrong my stereotype was. Things change :) Paul Riley wrote: but if you make a glib generalisation then why should I care? Yeah exactly. Funny though how all the anti-VB stuff actually does sometimes affect me. I shouldn't care but the sheer flood of it can become overbearing. That is where stereotypes are taken too far and people actually do need to back off. A joke can sometimes become more than just a joke. (the VB stereotype just as an example) Paul Riley wrote: I have ABSOLUTELY no doubt that Paul is a nice South African and I know he has a sense of humour Thanks, my work here is done. And I am sure you are a great lover ;P ;)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa -
Roger Wright wrote: It was very saddenning to learn that, because of her visit to the US and her exposure to undesirable racial attitudes, she would be watched forever more by the police upon her return, and would never have a chance to be accepted into the trusted body politic. What a sacrifice to make for the opportunity to see and learn about a new land... Must have been during the heydays of apartheid. I was born in 1979 and spent 5 years of the remaining 14 apartheid years in Zimbabwe so I really know very little about what apartheid was actually like. Funnily enough what you described probably still happens, but in reverse, by the very people who fought for freedom and in an attempt to destroy mechanisms like that. Ironic huh? We all become what we hate the most...
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaYup. 1972, just a few years after the Watts riots in this country, Vietnam very real and divisive, the government caught lying to us, tricky Dick under investigation... It was a trying time for many parts of the world, and a confusing time to grow up. Word of the day: Rotundacrat
Extra Credit will be awarded for: Quasimobo... -
Paul Riley wrote: And that, Roger, is the exact point of this thread. :-D Paul Riley wrote: However, it's a stereotype that South Africans are arrogant bastards with no sense of humour, and not a completely unfair stereotype in the days of apartheid when that was written Wow I never knew that. I guess in hindsight I can see why you say that, why people thought that. But as you say that is an apartheid legacy, especially seeing as the "arrogant bastards with no sense of humour" make up something like 10% of the entire population (of the 48 million South Africans only 10% are white, and only about 3% of that are the Afrikaaners who are seen as archetypical South Africans. Isn't it amazing that 3% of a country could dominate the rest?) I am an English white South African, meaning I come from the British colonists and I also grew up seeing the Afrikaaners (from the Dutch) as humourless, arrogant and unimaginative people. Well now I am in love with an Afrikaans girl and I see how wrong my stereotype was. Things change :) Paul Riley wrote: but if you make a glib generalisation then why should I care? Yeah exactly. Funny though how all the anti-VB stuff actually does sometimes affect me. I shouldn't care but the sheer flood of it can become overbearing. That is where stereotypes are taken too far and people actually do need to back off. A joke can sometimes become more than just a joke. (the VB stereotype just as an example) Paul Riley wrote: I have ABSOLUTELY no doubt that Paul is a nice South African and I know he has a sense of humour Thanks, my work here is done. And I am sure you are a great lover ;P ;)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaPaul Watson wrote: Isn't it amazing that 3% of a country could dominate the rest? Yes, and yet it happens repeatedly, all over the world. Not always to that extent but it certainly happens. Paul Watson wrote: Funny though how all the anti-VB stuff actually does sometimes affect me. I can understand that and I think it's mainly because people actually mean what they say. I've had my time with many different languages and before C# I've always said that VB is my favourite to work with (now I'm wavering). It may not be as powerful as C++ but it's absolutely perfect for RAD work. A friend of mine and I worked on one project for a while which had us writing C++ wrappers for third party APIs and VB GUIs for those wrappers, that was great fun and both C++ and VB served their respective purposes well. As soon as you work in an environment like that, you realise that the whole language war is pointless. Every language has its place otherwise it wouldn't be in commercial use. I still maintain that if I wanted to write a DB reporter outside of the Windows Environment (where Crystal exists), I'd want to use COBOL. Don't let it get to you. Paul