The State of the Nation: I am afraid
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josda1000 wrote:
Terrorism, as is defined today, is just crime, heightened
Not really. Crime is done for financial gain, terrorism is ideological.
josda1000 wrote:
This is, as you'd said in a different thread, governments against civilians, which "would never happen in the modern world".
I'm not sure I said that. I said that our governments were unlikely to try to do it to us. That they've always done things that way in the middle east, is a different thing.
josda1000 wrote:
It's costing us a ton of money, deepening all of our debts on national levels.
Well, that much is true. And, it's our fault. We poured money into those countries and thought they would just play nice. They now have the money to pursue their beliefs.
josda1000 wrote:
It's heightening this police state idea, that you people apparently actually want. "Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security."
Well, Ben thought that, but it seems your current population disagrees. The question is, did Ben envisage the current situation ? Is that the sort of security he meant ? Is it worth the 'freedom' of no airport security checks for the odd plane to blow up here and there, for example ?
josda1000 wrote:
But it also has to do with influence over the public: government wants control, that's all it is, and all it has ever been. Read history.
The idea that 'history' proves that the US government are no different from Nazis, given the chance, is a furphy and a straw man.
josda1000 wrote:
Ever hear of peeping toms? Ever hear of self-written search warrants?
Peeping toms have nothing to do with surveillance, and they also don't do any real harm if all they do is peep. I'd still kick their ass, don't get me wrong. Self written search warrants, you'll have to define. One wonders why a search warrant is needed unless someone is suspected of a crime, and how this affects the freedom of the population at large, however.
josda1000 wrote:
People, in order to live freely and happily, deserve privacy
At home, yes. In the commons, no. Privacy in public areas is only needed by p
Christian Graus wrote:
Not really. Crime is done for financial gain, terrorism is ideological.
Really? You want to take this one back yet? So you're saying that homicides are never done out of passion? Which is exactly what terrorism is, it's about passion. Yes, theoretically it's based on ideology, but all crime, no matter what it is, is based on passion.
Christian Graus wrote:
I said that our governments were unlikely to try to do it to us.
I seriously hope that you're right, but I have so many doubts right now.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, Ben thought that, but it seems your current population disagrees. The question is, did Ben envisage the current situation ? Is that the sort of security he meant ? Is it worth the 'freedom' of no airport security checks for the odd plane to blow up here and there, for example ?
1. No, not necessarily, but he did see that governments want control, and warned about it. 2. Yes, though not necessarily at airports or anything. He did warn about continued policing at high levels. 3. We already HAVE the odd plane blowing here and there (or, we have been very close to it recently, and we've had planes flying straight into buildings). But personally I think it wouldn't matter, if we had guns on planes (which pilots are allowed, yet persons are not). If people were allowed to protect themselves, they'd be fine. You and I are not going to see eye to eye on this.
Christian Graus wrote:
The idea that 'history' proves that the US government are no different from Nazis, given the chance, is a furphy and a straw man.
Did I say this? No. Don't put words in my mouth. (Thanks, I appreciate it.)
Christian Graus wrote:
Peeping toms have nothing to do with surveillance, and they also don't do any real harm if all they do is peep. I'd still kick their ass, don't get me wrong.
That's the point. It's about privacy. Take it or leave it.
Christian Graus wrote:
Self written search warrants, you'll have to define. One wonders why a search warrant is needed unless someone is suspected of a crime, and how this affects the freedom of the population at large, however.
The way it works is that police will abuse the power if they don
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Christian Graus wrote:
Not really. Crime is done for financial gain, terrorism is ideological.
Really? You want to take this one back yet? So you're saying that homicides are never done out of passion? Which is exactly what terrorism is, it's about passion. Yes, theoretically it's based on ideology, but all crime, no matter what it is, is based on passion.
Christian Graus wrote:
I said that our governments were unlikely to try to do it to us.
I seriously hope that you're right, but I have so many doubts right now.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, Ben thought that, but it seems your current population disagrees. The question is, did Ben envisage the current situation ? Is that the sort of security he meant ? Is it worth the 'freedom' of no airport security checks for the odd plane to blow up here and there, for example ?
1. No, not necessarily, but he did see that governments want control, and warned about it. 2. Yes, though not necessarily at airports or anything. He did warn about continued policing at high levels. 3. We already HAVE the odd plane blowing here and there (or, we have been very close to it recently, and we've had planes flying straight into buildings). But personally I think it wouldn't matter, if we had guns on planes (which pilots are allowed, yet persons are not). If people were allowed to protect themselves, they'd be fine. You and I are not going to see eye to eye on this.
Christian Graus wrote:
The idea that 'history' proves that the US government are no different from Nazis, given the chance, is a furphy and a straw man.
Did I say this? No. Don't put words in my mouth. (Thanks, I appreciate it.)
Christian Graus wrote:
Peeping toms have nothing to do with surveillance, and they also don't do any real harm if all they do is peep. I'd still kick their ass, don't get me wrong.
That's the point. It's about privacy. Take it or leave it.
Christian Graus wrote:
Self written search warrants, you'll have to define. One wonders why a search warrant is needed unless someone is suspected of a crime, and how this affects the freedom of the population at large, however.
The way it works is that police will abuse the power if they don
josda1000 wrote:
Yes, theoretically it's based on ideology, but all crime, no matter what it is, is based on passion.
Think you guys are both wrong here... Christian says it's always money... You say it's always passion. I would say that both "normal" crime and terrorism can be either. Crime can be about money or passion (Or even both)... Terrorism is theoretically about passion, but can also be about money (Kidnap & Ransom, Hijacking, etc).
josda1000 wrote:
if we had guns on planes (which pilots are allowed, yet persons are not). If people were allowed to protect themselves, they'd be fine.
I don't think airport security is really about guns anymore. It used to be, but since 9/11, there's just no way passengers are going to "cooperate" anymore. Now you see stories popping up now and then about a passenger who acts up and gets restrained/controlled by other passengers... People know it's life or death now, so they don't sit down and wait to be rescued anymore. No, I think the security is about explosives now. If some guy sneaks a pound of C4 under his jacket, your gun isn't going to help you. I'm kind of on the fence on airport security. Yes, it's bloody annoying and mostly theater right now, but I think if we could push the technology forward a bit, they might be able to make it effective without being so invasive.
josda1000 wrote:
Christian Graus wrote: This is my issue with conspiracy theorists. So there's a camera in the mall, that means there's going to be one in my shower ? In whose reality ? Not any clear thinking person. This is not theory, it's what happens, or was theoretically supposed to happen in Great Britain. This is no joke. In our reality. Go look it up.
Yeah, they tried that in a few "test" houses in the UK... Wasn't it a complete failure? Seriously, I can see a few people going for that thanks to the reality TV show fad, but the general public? Nah.
josda1000 wrote:
In my society, that man would be dead for what he did, and I wouldn't let it happen to my kids. (Thank God I'm still 25 with no wife/kids)
Really? You seemed a bit older, from our conversations (Haven't seen your show). I mean that as a compliment, of course. Lot of immature 20's out there (I'm 29, myself).
Proud to have fina
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josda1000 wrote:
Yes, theoretically it's based on ideology, but all crime, no matter what it is, is based on passion.
Think you guys are both wrong here... Christian says it's always money... You say it's always passion. I would say that both "normal" crime and terrorism can be either. Crime can be about money or passion (Or even both)... Terrorism is theoretically about passion, but can also be about money (Kidnap & Ransom, Hijacking, etc).
josda1000 wrote:
if we had guns on planes (which pilots are allowed, yet persons are not). If people were allowed to protect themselves, they'd be fine.
I don't think airport security is really about guns anymore. It used to be, but since 9/11, there's just no way passengers are going to "cooperate" anymore. Now you see stories popping up now and then about a passenger who acts up and gets restrained/controlled by other passengers... People know it's life or death now, so they don't sit down and wait to be rescued anymore. No, I think the security is about explosives now. If some guy sneaks a pound of C4 under his jacket, your gun isn't going to help you. I'm kind of on the fence on airport security. Yes, it's bloody annoying and mostly theater right now, but I think if we could push the technology forward a bit, they might be able to make it effective without being so invasive.
josda1000 wrote:
Christian Graus wrote: This is my issue with conspiracy theorists. So there's a camera in the mall, that means there's going to be one in my shower ? In whose reality ? Not any clear thinking person. This is not theory, it's what happens, or was theoretically supposed to happen in Great Britain. This is no joke. In our reality. Go look it up.
Yeah, they tried that in a few "test" houses in the UK... Wasn't it a complete failure? Seriously, I can see a few people going for that thanks to the reality TV show fad, but the general public? Nah.
josda1000 wrote:
In my society, that man would be dead for what he did, and I wouldn't let it happen to my kids. (Thank God I'm still 25 with no wife/kids)
Really? You seemed a bit older, from our conversations (Haven't seen your show). I mean that as a compliment, of course. Lot of immature 20's out there (I'm 29, myself).
Proud to have fina
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Think you guys are both wrong here... Christian says it's always money... You say it's always passion. I would say that both "normal" crime and terrorism can be either. Crime can be about money or passion (Or even both)... Terrorism is theoretically about passion, but can also be about money (Kidnap & Ransom, Hijacking, etc).
I agree, but if you think about it, (IMO) when it's about money, it's about greed or necessity, which is a form of passion. So really, it usually is about both, but I tend to think that it's always technically passion that drives it. I can agree with you about the explosives and such, but do remember that they're scanning for anything and everything still, including razors and knives and such.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Yeah, they tried that in a few "test" houses in the UK... Wasn't it a complete failure? Seriously, I can see a few people going for that thanks to the reality TV show fad, but the general public? Nah.
I hope you're right lol I haven't checked into it in about 3-6 months.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Really? You seemed a bit older, from our conversations (Haven't seen your show). I mean that as a compliment, of course. Lot of immature 20's out there (I'm 29, myself).
I get that a lot, always have. Thanks for the compliment. And I would have figured you were in your thirties as well.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Not really. Crime is done for financial gain, terrorism is ideological.
Really? You want to take this one back yet? So you're saying that homicides are never done out of passion? Which is exactly what terrorism is, it's about passion. Yes, theoretically it's based on ideology, but all crime, no matter what it is, is based on passion.
Christian Graus wrote:
I said that our governments were unlikely to try to do it to us.
I seriously hope that you're right, but I have so many doubts right now.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, Ben thought that, but it seems your current population disagrees. The question is, did Ben envisage the current situation ? Is that the sort of security he meant ? Is it worth the 'freedom' of no airport security checks for the odd plane to blow up here and there, for example ?
1. No, not necessarily, but he did see that governments want control, and warned about it. 2. Yes, though not necessarily at airports or anything. He did warn about continued policing at high levels. 3. We already HAVE the odd plane blowing here and there (or, we have been very close to it recently, and we've had planes flying straight into buildings). But personally I think it wouldn't matter, if we had guns on planes (which pilots are allowed, yet persons are not). If people were allowed to protect themselves, they'd be fine. You and I are not going to see eye to eye on this.
Christian Graus wrote:
The idea that 'history' proves that the US government are no different from Nazis, given the chance, is a furphy and a straw man.
Did I say this? No. Don't put words in my mouth. (Thanks, I appreciate it.)
Christian Graus wrote:
Peeping toms have nothing to do with surveillance, and they also don't do any real harm if all they do is peep. I'd still kick their ass, don't get me wrong.
That's the point. It's about privacy. Take it or leave it.
Christian Graus wrote:
Self written search warrants, you'll have to define. One wonders why a search warrant is needed unless someone is suspected of a crime, and how this affects the freedom of the population at large, however.
The way it works is that police will abuse the power if they don
josda1000 wrote:
But personally I think it wouldn't matter, if we had guns on planes (which pilots are allowed, yet persons are not). If people were allowed to protect themselves, they'd be fine.
Pretty sure you need to rethink this. You need specialist ammo on planes otherwise you are going to put a hole in the side of the plane. Not the best thing aat high altitude in a pressure controlled environment.
josda1000 wrote:
But you're agreeing with the government and saying that I should be watched, wherever I go, with whatever I do, because I have nothing to hide. Well, maybe I don't have a damned thing to hide, but what if I want to be left the hell alone?!
Then surely you wouldn't be in a public area?
josda1000 wrote:
I'd be questioning why there wasn't security in front of the mall with scanners. But that's beside the point.
Most likely cost. Who pays a camera a wage?
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josda1000 wrote:
But personally I think it wouldn't matter, if we had guns on planes (which pilots are allowed, yet persons are not). If people were allowed to protect themselves, they'd be fine.
Pretty sure you need to rethink this. You need specialist ammo on planes otherwise you are going to put a hole in the side of the plane. Not the best thing aat high altitude in a pressure controlled environment.
josda1000 wrote:
But you're agreeing with the government and saying that I should be watched, wherever I go, with whatever I do, because I have nothing to hide. Well, maybe I don't have a damned thing to hide, but what if I want to be left the hell alone?!
Then surely you wouldn't be in a public area?
josda1000 wrote:
I'd be questioning why there wasn't security in front of the mall with scanners. But that's beside the point.
Most likely cost. Who pays a camera a wage?
You don't deserve a response to any of these, except the first. Yes, you're probably right that I'd have to rethink that, except for the fact that those planes are made of composites, two of which being aluminum and titanium, which are very tolerable to punishment, and are used to make planes lighter for flight. http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Evolution_of_Technology/composites/Tech40.htm[^] I think you need to research before writing me off.
JHizzle wrote:
Then surely you wouldn't be in a public area?
That's just arrogant.
JHizzle wrote:
Most likely cost. Who pays a camera a wage?
That's part of my point actually, nevermind the fact that they're just THERE, watching you. Don't you think that's just a BIT strange? Can you get more arrogant for me?
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You don't deserve a response to any of these, except the first. Yes, you're probably right that I'd have to rethink that, except for the fact that those planes are made of composites, two of which being aluminum and titanium, which are very tolerable to punishment, and are used to make planes lighter for flight. http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Evolution_of_Technology/composites/Tech40.htm[^] I think you need to research before writing me off.
JHizzle wrote:
Then surely you wouldn't be in a public area?
That's just arrogant.
JHizzle wrote:
Most likely cost. Who pays a camera a wage?
That's part of my point actually, nevermind the fact that they're just THERE, watching you. Don't you think that's just a BIT strange? Can you get more arrogant for me?
Hey, I wasn't trying to be confrontational, I was just trying to get a few logical things worked out here. So fair enough, the framework and chassis might be, what about windows? Secondarily, surrounding bystanders would not be. Shooting at a target range on flat ground with a non moving target is completely different from a moving aircraft with a target that obviously is not going to wait for you to line up a shot ergo it'd be better to have fewer armed passengers on the plane in the first place, no?
josda1000 wrote:
That's just arrogant.
No, not really, it was in response to you saying that you might want to just be alone. Surely that would mean not with the public.
josda1000 wrote:
That's part of my point actually, nevermind the fact that they're just THERE, watching you. Don't you think that's just a BIT strange? Can you get more arrogant for me?
Missing the bit where I'm being arrogant here, please elaborate. Ok, so let's say there's security on the mall (in this example) entrance using handheld scanners. Surely this is part of mentality you don't want where you're being searched even though you're not doinganything wrong and secondly, it'll never be 100% effective because there will always be another way to get in OR a way to fool the scanners.
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You don't deserve a response to any of these, except the first. Yes, you're probably right that I'd have to rethink that, except for the fact that those planes are made of composites, two of which being aluminum and titanium, which are very tolerable to punishment, and are used to make planes lighter for flight. http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Evolution_of_Technology/composites/Tech40.htm[^] I think you need to research before writing me off.
JHizzle wrote:
Then surely you wouldn't be in a public area?
That's just arrogant.
JHizzle wrote:
Most likely cost. Who pays a camera a wage?
That's part of my point actually, nevermind the fact that they're just THERE, watching you. Don't you think that's just a BIT strange? Can you get more arrogant for me?
I think the issue with cameras in public, is that legally there's no expectation of privacy in a public place. The law basically sees it as: "If you're just fine with some random stranger seeing you, then what's wrong with a camera doing the same?" Obviously the difference is that the camera is recording, but nowadays it's completely possible that there's some random teenager videotaping you on their cell phone, so it's not that much of a stretch. I would guess that your main objection would be to the GOVERNMENT operating these cameras. That, I agree, might be a little much. Would you object to a 7/11 putting in security cameras to catch shoplifters? How about the operators of a shopping mall putting in cameras to do the same? What if they decide to keep an eye on the parking lot (Assuming that's also their property)? Now what if a crime does occur on their property, and they get the police involved? Should they have to get a warrant to turn over their own camera footage, to show the cops that they got robbed? What if the cops are tracking a fugitive? Are the owners of the camera obligated to demand a search warrant if the cops don't have one? Obviously the police would have to get one to REQUIRE their cooperation, but since it's their camera and their property, can't they just be helpful and turn over a copy? Let's move outside, now... What if the city/town government (Not federal) sets up cameras to watch busy intersections and monitor traffic? What if they set up cameras in a park or a tunnel that's known for being dangerous at night (Like most parks in NYC)? And when it's government, even local government, you can ask more questions... How long do they keep the recordings? If it's a traffic camera, they might keep a time-lapse archive for statistical mapping to analyze traffic patterns and figure out how to improve the infrastructure. If it's a security camera, they might keep the footage for a week or two, so they'll have evidence in case a mugging or rape is reported. See, it gets a little complicated, and you have to figure out exactly where to draw the line. Yes, I would object to government-run cameras watching us everywhere we go, but you really can't expect privacy in a public place. It can't be as simple as "cameras are bad," because the problem isn't that they're used, but that they could potentially be abused.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark.
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josda1000 wrote:
But personally I think it wouldn't matter, if we had guns on planes (which pilots are allowed, yet persons are not). If people were allowed to protect themselves, they'd be fine.
Pretty sure you need to rethink this. You need specialist ammo on planes otherwise you are going to put a hole in the side of the plane. Not the best thing aat high altitude in a pressure controlled environment.
josda1000 wrote:
But you're agreeing with the government and saying that I should be watched, wherever I go, with whatever I do, because I have nothing to hide. Well, maybe I don't have a damned thing to hide, but what if I want to be left the hell alone?!
Then surely you wouldn't be in a public area?
josda1000 wrote:
I'd be questioning why there wasn't security in front of the mall with scanners. But that's beside the point.
Most likely cost. Who pays a camera a wage?
JHizzle wrote:
You need specialist ammo on planes otherwise you are going to put a hole in the side of the plane. Not the best thing aat high altitude in a pressure controlled environment.
I've seen this on mythbusters. They pressurized a jet plane to far greater than the pressure would normally be, and they shot holes through it. Nothing happened.
JHizzle wrote:
Then surely you wouldn't be in a public area?
Surely you wouldn't want to be recorded when you walk out of your house? Why not have a chip in you so you can be identified and traced? Soon the cameras will have real time facial recognition with that new "mind reading" tech that looks at your face and records your emotion. You will make a good slave.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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I think the issue with cameras in public, is that legally there's no expectation of privacy in a public place. The law basically sees it as: "If you're just fine with some random stranger seeing you, then what's wrong with a camera doing the same?" Obviously the difference is that the camera is recording, but nowadays it's completely possible that there's some random teenager videotaping you on their cell phone, so it's not that much of a stretch. I would guess that your main objection would be to the GOVERNMENT operating these cameras. That, I agree, might be a little much. Would you object to a 7/11 putting in security cameras to catch shoplifters? How about the operators of a shopping mall putting in cameras to do the same? What if they decide to keep an eye on the parking lot (Assuming that's also their property)? Now what if a crime does occur on their property, and they get the police involved? Should they have to get a warrant to turn over their own camera footage, to show the cops that they got robbed? What if the cops are tracking a fugitive? Are the owners of the camera obligated to demand a search warrant if the cops don't have one? Obviously the police would have to get one to REQUIRE their cooperation, but since it's their camera and their property, can't they just be helpful and turn over a copy? Let's move outside, now... What if the city/town government (Not federal) sets up cameras to watch busy intersections and monitor traffic? What if they set up cameras in a park or a tunnel that's known for being dangerous at night (Like most parks in NYC)? And when it's government, even local government, you can ask more questions... How long do they keep the recordings? If it's a traffic camera, they might keep a time-lapse archive for statistical mapping to analyze traffic patterns and figure out how to improve the infrastructure. If it's a security camera, they might keep the footage for a week or two, so they'll have evidence in case a mugging or rape is reported. See, it gets a little complicated, and you have to figure out exactly where to draw the line. Yes, I would object to government-run cameras watching us everywhere we go, but you really can't expect privacy in a public place. It can't be as simple as "cameras are bad," because the problem isn't that they're used, but that they could potentially be abused.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark.
Nobody wants to be recorded when they walk down the sidewalk, and nobody wants to be recorded when they drive down the road. Nobody wants to be tracked and traced, nobody wants to be identified by strangers. Nobody wants to be digitally strip searched, nobody wants to be probed. Nobody wants to give out their financial information, nobody wants to give out their property information. If someone has a file on you, then you are vulnerable. That person has an advantage. That is why government has every bit of information you can think of, all accessible through a computer. Purchases and bank accounts, property, work records, travel, family (and all their records), health records, school records, phone conversations, internet traffic, DNA, biometric naked body scan, EVERYTHING. You are their property.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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Nobody wants to be recorded when they walk down the sidewalk, and nobody wants to be recorded when they drive down the road. Nobody wants to be tracked and traced, nobody wants to be identified by strangers. Nobody wants to be digitally strip searched, nobody wants to be probed. Nobody wants to give out their financial information, nobody wants to give out their property information. If someone has a file on you, then you are vulnerable. That person has an advantage. That is why government has every bit of information you can think of, all accessible through a computer. Purchases and bank accounts, property, work records, travel, family (and all their records), health records, school records, phone conversations, internet traffic, DNA, biometric naked body scan, EVERYTHING. You are their property.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Nobody wants to be recorded when they walk down the sidewalk, and nobody wants to be recorded when they drive down the road. Nobody wants to be tracked and traced, nobody wants to be identified by strangers.
I actually know a few people who would love that. But they also do anything they can manage for attention.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Nobody wants to be digitally strip searched, nobody wants to be probed.
I refuse to go into why I know this, but there are those who would.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Nobody wants to give out their financial information, nobody wants to give out their property information.
Yet, how many do?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
If someone has a file on you, then you are vulnerable.
Not really, it's all a matter of controlling what they know of you. I'd put remarkable odds you couldn't pick me out on the street if I gave you most any of the information that scares you oh so much. But wait, why would I know something like this? Oh, mostly because I've lived in an area where people were actually looking for ways to get at me and I've had to deal with the reality of it. It's not that hard, just shut the hell up and stop acting like a lunatic in public, they have no way to know what kind of psycho you are in private.
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JHizzle wrote:
You need specialist ammo on planes otherwise you are going to put a hole in the side of the plane. Not the best thing aat high altitude in a pressure controlled environment.
I've seen this on mythbusters. They pressurized a jet plane to far greater than the pressure would normally be, and they shot holes through it. Nothing happened.
JHizzle wrote:
Then surely you wouldn't be in a public area?
Surely you wouldn't want to be recorded when you walk out of your house? Why not have a chip in you so you can be identified and traced? Soon the cameras will have real time facial recognition with that new "mind reading" tech that looks at your face and records your emotion. You will make a good slave.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
I've seen this on mythbusters. They pressurized a jet plane to far greater than the pressure would normally be, and they shot holes through it. Nothing happened.
At altitude while flying I assume, otherwise it's just more pointless half experiment attempting for an explosion from them. I like the guys, but they're hardly rigorous with some of these tests they come up with.
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Hey, I wasn't trying to be confrontational, I was just trying to get a few logical things worked out here. So fair enough, the framework and chassis might be, what about windows? Secondarily, surrounding bystanders would not be. Shooting at a target range on flat ground with a non moving target is completely different from a moving aircraft with a target that obviously is not going to wait for you to line up a shot ergo it'd be better to have fewer armed passengers on the plane in the first place, no?
josda1000 wrote:
That's just arrogant.
No, not really, it was in response to you saying that you might want to just be alone. Surely that would mean not with the public.
josda1000 wrote:
That's part of my point actually, nevermind the fact that they're just THERE, watching you. Don't you think that's just a BIT strange? Can you get more arrogant for me?
Missing the bit where I'm being arrogant here, please elaborate. Ok, so let's say there's security on the mall (in this example) entrance using handheld scanners. Surely this is part of mentality you don't want where you're being searched even though you're not doinganything wrong and secondly, it'll never be 100% effective because there will always be another way to get in OR a way to fool the scanners.
JHizzle wrote:
it'd be better to have fewer armed passengers on the plane in the first place, no?
Well in the society that I see, and the one we have here anyway, there are only a few people armed at any given time anyway. So yes, I agree it'd be better to have fewer, but none? That's going too far IMO. Besides, if we're talking about staving off a bomber, it'd be better to have at least SOMEONE with a gun, to take that bomber out before he arms and engages it.
JHizzle wrote:
the framework and chassis might be, what about windows?
Agreed. But a rational human being up against a bomber? I think windows are not your concern here.
JHizzle wrote:
No, not really, it was in response to you saying that you might want to just be alone. Surely that would mean not with the public.
I'm saying, be left alone, not being intruded upon. I'm not a hermit.
JHizzle wrote:
Ok, so let's say there's security on the mall (in this example) entrance using handheld scanners. Surely this is part of mentality you don't want where you're being searched even though you're not doinganything wrong and secondly, it'll never be 100% effective because there will always be another way to get in OR a way to fool the scanners.
Completely agreed, absolutely.
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Nobody wants to be recorded when they walk down the sidewalk, and nobody wants to be recorded when they drive down the road. Nobody wants to be tracked and traced, nobody wants to be identified by strangers. Nobody wants to be digitally strip searched, nobody wants to be probed. Nobody wants to give out their financial information, nobody wants to give out their property information. If someone has a file on you, then you are vulnerable. That person has an advantage. That is why government has every bit of information you can think of, all accessible through a computer. Purchases and bank accounts, property, work records, travel, family (and all their records), health records, school records, phone conversations, internet traffic, DNA, biometric naked body scan, EVERYTHING. You are their property.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
Once again, you ignore my post and spout rhetoric. Hey, let's make cameras illegal, because they can be used to monitor you! Oh wait, computers can record data, so they're now illegal too! What about paper? Some guy could stand in a crowd and jot down descriptions of everyone, so better make that illegal. Stop being such a child, and understand that most issues are not black and white, all or nothing.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)
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I think the issue with cameras in public, is that legally there's no expectation of privacy in a public place. The law basically sees it as: "If you're just fine with some random stranger seeing you, then what's wrong with a camera doing the same?" Obviously the difference is that the camera is recording, but nowadays it's completely possible that there's some random teenager videotaping you on their cell phone, so it's not that much of a stretch. I would guess that your main objection would be to the GOVERNMENT operating these cameras. That, I agree, might be a little much. Would you object to a 7/11 putting in security cameras to catch shoplifters? How about the operators of a shopping mall putting in cameras to do the same? What if they decide to keep an eye on the parking lot (Assuming that's also their property)? Now what if a crime does occur on their property, and they get the police involved? Should they have to get a warrant to turn over their own camera footage, to show the cops that they got robbed? What if the cops are tracking a fugitive? Are the owners of the camera obligated to demand a search warrant if the cops don't have one? Obviously the police would have to get one to REQUIRE their cooperation, but since it's their camera and their property, can't they just be helpful and turn over a copy? Let's move outside, now... What if the city/town government (Not federal) sets up cameras to watch busy intersections and monitor traffic? What if they set up cameras in a park or a tunnel that's known for being dangerous at night (Like most parks in NYC)? And when it's government, even local government, you can ask more questions... How long do they keep the recordings? If it's a traffic camera, they might keep a time-lapse archive for statistical mapping to analyze traffic patterns and figure out how to improve the infrastructure. If it's a security camera, they might keep the footage for a week or two, so they'll have evidence in case a mugging or rape is reported. See, it gets a little complicated, and you have to figure out exactly where to draw the line. Yes, I would object to government-run cameras watching us everywhere we go, but you really can't expect privacy in a public place. It can't be as simple as "cameras are bad," because the problem isn't that they're used, but that they could potentially be abused.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark.
Basically your whole message here is of one idea, so I just want to respond and make a point to your original example, because the rest of your examples seem to follow of the logic that I'd actually agree with the original.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
I think the issue with cameras in public, is that legally there's no expectation of privacy in a public place. The law basically sees it as: "If you're just fine with some random stranger seeing you, then what's wrong with a camera doing the same?" Obviously the difference is that the camera is recording, but nowadays it's completely possible that there's some random teenager videotaping you on their cell phone, so it's not that much of a stretch. I would guess that your main objection would be to the GOVERNMENT operating these cameras. That, I agree, might be a little much. Would you object to a 7/11 putting in security cameras to catch shoplifters? How about the operators of a shopping mall putting in cameras to do the same? What if they decide to keep an eye on the parking lot (Assuming that's also their property)?
1. I have every right to my privacy while in public. Don't touch me, I won't touch you. "You can look but don't touch". I can agree with this. But it's another thing to have someone staring at you, isn't it? If you saw someone looking at you constantly from a park bench, you'd be a little weirded out, agreed? Ok, so just change that set of eyes to a camera. 2. "The Law" is not the same as "The Government". The law is an agreement written down on a piece of paper. The government is a human entity that enforces that written agreement. But let's get back to the point again, a stranger could glance at me, in passing. A camera sees all, constantly. Big difference. 3. A person's handheld camera has focus, usually, on not strangers, but their family, friends, or sites to be seen while traveling. That's really about it. You're diverting the subject from strangers to familiars. 4. I'm glad you agree that the Government operating the cameras might be a little much, because it's just more power to the government, more control. Now this is the point though, to this list: If I go to a 7/11, they can tape their premises as much as they want, because I'm consenting to shop there, instead of a Tedeschi's or something. I agree to their terms, I walk in and get a pack of gum. Now if I'm out in public actually traveling to the 7/11 or to my mother's place, I have not consented to be taped. B
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Basically your whole message here is of one idea, so I just want to respond and make a point to your original example, because the rest of your examples seem to follow of the logic that I'd actually agree with the original.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
I think the issue with cameras in public, is that legally there's no expectation of privacy in a public place. The law basically sees it as: "If you're just fine with some random stranger seeing you, then what's wrong with a camera doing the same?" Obviously the difference is that the camera is recording, but nowadays it's completely possible that there's some random teenager videotaping you on their cell phone, so it's not that much of a stretch. I would guess that your main objection would be to the GOVERNMENT operating these cameras. That, I agree, might be a little much. Would you object to a 7/11 putting in security cameras to catch shoplifters? How about the operators of a shopping mall putting in cameras to do the same? What if they decide to keep an eye on the parking lot (Assuming that's also their property)?
1. I have every right to my privacy while in public. Don't touch me, I won't touch you. "You can look but don't touch". I can agree with this. But it's another thing to have someone staring at you, isn't it? If you saw someone looking at you constantly from a park bench, you'd be a little weirded out, agreed? Ok, so just change that set of eyes to a camera. 2. "The Law" is not the same as "The Government". The law is an agreement written down on a piece of paper. The government is a human entity that enforces that written agreement. But let's get back to the point again, a stranger could glance at me, in passing. A camera sees all, constantly. Big difference. 3. A person's handheld camera has focus, usually, on not strangers, but their family, friends, or sites to be seen while traveling. That's really about it. You're diverting the subject from strangers to familiars. 4. I'm glad you agree that the Government operating the cameras might be a little much, because it's just more power to the government, more control. Now this is the point though, to this list: If I go to a 7/11, they can tape their premises as much as they want, because I'm consenting to shop there, instead of a Tedeschi's or something. I agree to their terms, I walk in and get a pack of gum. Now if I'm out in public actually traveling to the 7/11 or to my mother's place, I have not consented to be taped. B
Fair enough, and I can agree with your points somewhat. But there's still a gray area. As I said in my previous post, traffic cameras have a realistic purpose. The local government can use them to analyze patterns and improve our infrastructure. They're not intended to spy on you, but technically they're doing exactly that. If there are specific areas that are known to be dangerous, such as the infamous tunnels-under-bridges in parks, what do you do about that? Some places will just advise people to avoid that area, though that seems to be sidestepping the problem instead of confronting it. It's expensive to pay a cop to watch each of these locations, and a lot more practical to set up security cameras. Granted, there's a slippery slope here, but it's easy to justify the first few. As to the definition of being "in public" in this sense (Willingness to be monitored)... So you're fine with being taped inside the 7/11. What about in the parking lot of that 7/11? Technically that's still their property, even though it's out in the open. An indoor shopping mall is private property, even though it serves as a "public place." Again, assume these are the property owners operating the cameras (Or a contracted security company), NOT the government. Even on government land, it makes sense in certain spots... Inside or around the perimeter of a courthouse, police station, prison, hospital, school (Well, that one is iffy), etc. The only spots that are pretty definitely "out in public" in every sense, are the streets and sidewalks, and public parks. That's where I would draw the line, really, though you still have the issue of cameras seeing out windows as they monitor stores and such. Basically, here's the guidelines I would be comfortable with: 1) Cameras allowed on private property, operated directly or indirectly by the owners/residents of said property. (Hard to restrict this anyway, as they're within their rights). Include government buildings and their immediate surroundings. 2) Local/State government-operated traffic cameras pointed at busy roads/intersections, but only time-lapse (Frame every minute or so, to estimate traffic level, not continuous capture) 3) Police-operated red light cameras (Take pictures of cars going through when the light is red) - Hey, I don't like them either, but they have a valid purpose, and they only record if you're breaking the law. 4) Police-operated "Safety" cameras, like in known-dangerous areas on public land, but no records stored for more th
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Once again, you ignore my post and spout rhetoric. Hey, let's make cameras illegal, because they can be used to monitor you! Oh wait, computers can record data, so they're now illegal too! What about paper? Some guy could stand in a crowd and jot down descriptions of everyone, so better make that illegal. Stop being such a child, and understand that most issues are not black and white, all or nothing.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)
Don't take what I say out of context.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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Don't take what I say out of context.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
Ok, then I'll quote it.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Nobody wants to be recorded when they walk down the sidewalk, and nobody wants to be recorded when they drive down the road. Nobody wants to be tracked and traced, nobody wants to be identified by strangers. Nobody wants to be digitally strip searched, nobody wants to be probed. Nobody wants to give out their financial information, nobody wants to give out their property information.
Summarized: You don't want to be recorded.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
DIf someone has a file on you, then you are vulnerable. That person has an advantage. That is why government has every bit of information you can think of, all accessible through a computer. Purchases and bank accounts, property, work records, travel, family (and all their records), health records, school records, phone conversations, internet traffic, DNA, biometric naked body scan, EVERYTHING.
Summarized: You don't want anyone keeping files on you. So where does the "out of context" part come in? If you're preaching that these are evil, then presumably you're preaching that they should be made illegal.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)
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Fair enough, and I can agree with your points somewhat. But there's still a gray area. As I said in my previous post, traffic cameras have a realistic purpose. The local government can use them to analyze patterns and improve our infrastructure. They're not intended to spy on you, but technically they're doing exactly that. If there are specific areas that are known to be dangerous, such as the infamous tunnels-under-bridges in parks, what do you do about that? Some places will just advise people to avoid that area, though that seems to be sidestepping the problem instead of confronting it. It's expensive to pay a cop to watch each of these locations, and a lot more practical to set up security cameras. Granted, there's a slippery slope here, but it's easy to justify the first few. As to the definition of being "in public" in this sense (Willingness to be monitored)... So you're fine with being taped inside the 7/11. What about in the parking lot of that 7/11? Technically that's still their property, even though it's out in the open. An indoor shopping mall is private property, even though it serves as a "public place." Again, assume these are the property owners operating the cameras (Or a contracted security company), NOT the government. Even on government land, it makes sense in certain spots... Inside or around the perimeter of a courthouse, police station, prison, hospital, school (Well, that one is iffy), etc. The only spots that are pretty definitely "out in public" in every sense, are the streets and sidewalks, and public parks. That's where I would draw the line, really, though you still have the issue of cameras seeing out windows as they monitor stores and such. Basically, here's the guidelines I would be comfortable with: 1) Cameras allowed on private property, operated directly or indirectly by the owners/residents of said property. (Hard to restrict this anyway, as they're within their rights). Include government buildings and their immediate surroundings. 2) Local/State government-operated traffic cameras pointed at busy roads/intersections, but only time-lapse (Frame every minute or so, to estimate traffic level, not continuous capture) 3) Police-operated red light cameras (Take pictures of cars going through when the light is red) - Hey, I don't like them either, but they have a valid purpose, and they only record if you're breaking the law. 4) Police-operated "Safety" cameras, like in known-dangerous areas on public land, but no records stored for more th
OK I never said that cameras couldn't reside outside, on public property. It's the idea that government is behind the cameras at schools, parks, streets and airports (TSA handles those, and not "capitalism" as Christian puts it.) No, I don't think cameras should be in courthouses, schools, hospitals, if they are public. Privately owned schools and hospitals, it's up to them. Police stations? Makes sense to me, that's what they do. Jails? Same deal, to me at least. Otherwise, hire someone. Yes, it costs more to pay someone. But that's precisely the point: it's their job, plus if you hire someone and something happens on the spot, they're already stationed there, and they can't get away with it easily. Cameras just cost more, and all of that databasing won't last forever. So again, I agree with privately owned places having their own cameras, that's up to them, and if they see a need to make that expenditure, that's their business, and they should be free to do so. But I do not consent to having my every step be taped wherever I go, on public or government grounds. Continuous capture, or any capture, cameras for traffic are out of bounds as well; they have engineers that already have tools to estimate traffic patterns anyway, other than cameras. Red light cameras are only used, in the long run, to make money for the state. They don't really have anything to do with stopping accidents, because people are going to run those lights anyway. It's definitely a violation of privacy and a consent of the principle.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Police-operated "Safety" cameras, like in known-dangerous areas on public land, but no records stored for more than, say, 24 hours. Ideally, they would only be active during the "dangerous" times (ex. Late night/early morning), and somehow limited in use (Maybe no more than X cameras per Y area, or no more than X% of an area monitored) to some reasonable amount.
This is a black and white issue as well, though you're trying to obfuscate it. You're consenting the principle for "safety". I think this goes overboard as well, and I do not consent to this at all. You're allowing for "eyes everywhere", and it puts fear in one's mind instead of knowing you're free. This is ridiculous to me.
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Ok, then I'll quote it.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Nobody wants to be recorded when they walk down the sidewalk, and nobody wants to be recorded when they drive down the road. Nobody wants to be tracked and traced, nobody wants to be identified by strangers. Nobody wants to be digitally strip searched, nobody wants to be probed. Nobody wants to give out their financial information, nobody wants to give out their property information.
Summarized: You don't want to be recorded.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
DIf someone has a file on you, then you are vulnerable. That person has an advantage. That is why government has every bit of information you can think of, all accessible through a computer. Purchases and bank accounts, property, work records, travel, family (and all their records), health records, school records, phone conversations, internet traffic, DNA, biometric naked body scan, EVERYTHING.
Summarized: You don't want anyone keeping files on you. So where does the "out of context" part come in? If you're preaching that these are evil, then presumably you're preaching that they should be made illegal.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)
I never said cameras or computers should be made illegal now did I?
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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OK I never said that cameras couldn't reside outside, on public property. It's the idea that government is behind the cameras at schools, parks, streets and airports (TSA handles those, and not "capitalism" as Christian puts it.) No, I don't think cameras should be in courthouses, schools, hospitals, if they are public. Privately owned schools and hospitals, it's up to them. Police stations? Makes sense to me, that's what they do. Jails? Same deal, to me at least. Otherwise, hire someone. Yes, it costs more to pay someone. But that's precisely the point: it's their job, plus if you hire someone and something happens on the spot, they're already stationed there, and they can't get away with it easily. Cameras just cost more, and all of that databasing won't last forever. So again, I agree with privately owned places having their own cameras, that's up to them, and if they see a need to make that expenditure, that's their business, and they should be free to do so. But I do not consent to having my every step be taped wherever I go, on public or government grounds. Continuous capture, or any capture, cameras for traffic are out of bounds as well; they have engineers that already have tools to estimate traffic patterns anyway, other than cameras. Red light cameras are only used, in the long run, to make money for the state. They don't really have anything to do with stopping accidents, because people are going to run those lights anyway. It's definitely a violation of privacy and a consent of the principle.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Police-operated "Safety" cameras, like in known-dangerous areas on public land, but no records stored for more than, say, 24 hours. Ideally, they would only be active during the "dangerous" times (ex. Late night/early morning), and somehow limited in use (Maybe no more than X cameras per Y area, or no more than X% of an area monitored) to some reasonable amount.
This is a black and white issue as well, though you're trying to obfuscate it. You're consenting the principle for "safety". I think this goes overboard as well, and I do not consent to this at all. You're allowing for "eyes everywhere", and it puts fear in one's mind instead of knowing you're free. This is ridiculous to me.
josda1000 wrote:
This is a black and white issue as well, though you're trying to obfuscate it. You're consenting the principle for "safety". I think this goes overboard as well, and I do not consent to this at all. You're allowing for "eyes everywhere", and it puts fear in one's mind instead of knowing you're free. This is ridiculous to me.
If most of the violent crime in a city is concentrated in a few specific areas (Such as public parks), then it makes sense to monitor that area. If you can afford it, you hire someone to stand there and watch it. If you can't, one person can monitor a lot of cameras.
josda1000 wrote:
Continuous capture, or any capture, cameras for traffic are out of bounds as well; they have engineers that already have tools to estimate traffic patterns anyway, other than cameras.
Except some cities have pretty sophisticated models, that work best with close-to-real-time input. I've always been curious as to how the traffic lights are timed here in Manhattan, for example... Would love to get my hands on that network for a bit... Heh
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)