Shadow Government
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
the economy is unregulated, which means the government effectively has no power.
The economy is not unregulated. Property rights laws and standard legislation force business to obey the law and respect the rights and property of others. Such as laws against false advertising, collusion, and fraud and so many others. These basic standard laws are enforced just like the rest, basic laws of property rights and personal liberty.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The economy is not unregulated. Property rights laws and standard legislation force business to obey the law and respect the rights and property of others. Such as laws against false advertising, collusion, and fraud and so many others. These basic standard laws are enforced just like the rest, basic laws of property rights and personal liberty.
Except that in true capitalism, the government does NOT do ANY type of wage or price control. No minimum wage, for one. Minimum wage is a socialistic element. So on the low end, you'll have slave labor, and on the high end, you'll have filthy rich corporate executives (Just like we have now, but moreso). True capitalism tends toward larger and larger companies, which eventually results in monopolies. At that point, you either accept government regulation (Government-operated companies = Socialism), forced government intervention by way of splitting the company (More socialism), or just let them control the entire industry (Capitalistic slavery). In other words, true capitalism is just as dangerous as true socialism.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The economy is not unregulated. Property rights laws and standard legislation force business to obey the law and respect the rights and property of others. Such as laws against false advertising, collusion, and fraud and so many others. These basic standard laws are enforced just like the rest, basic laws of property rights and personal liberty.
Which happens to be... regulation. If you hold them to laws, you ARE regulating them. Standard legislation is socialism. Pure Capitalism does not have any such restrictions. It was the case in the early industrial revolution. Congrats. You fail.
The regulation being proposed sounds like a retaliatory attack on big banks and corporations, but its actually in their favor. Do you really think they would give up their power? Obama was hired by them, and he is doing a great job giving them all the money they want and further developing the Corpratocracy.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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You believe he actually said something worth reading? He is the type of people that ruthlessly demonize Christians while at the same time say they are more radical that muslims, inject some racism, and do it with great disdain.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
You know who holds the 2nd spot on biggest act of terrorism in the US? Oklahoma City. You know, those right wing christians that blew up a building of government workers that weren't even in the same state as the people that angered them... But hey, that's not a big deal. Ever see what sort of terror is inflicted on people trying to get an abortion in certain states? Radical fanatics are pretty much the same, no matter what religion they come from.
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The regulation being proposed sounds like a retaliatory attack on big banks and corporations, but its actually in their favor. Do you really think they would give up their power? Obama was hired by them, and he is doing a great job giving them all the money they want and further developing the Corpratocracy.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
You realized that you lost the argument, so you're changing the subject. The argument you're debating against is:
Government regulation == SocialismProud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The economy is not unregulated. Property rights laws and standard legislation force business to obey the law and respect the rights and property of others. Such as laws against false advertising, collusion, and fraud and so many others. These basic standard laws are enforced just like the rest, basic laws of property rights and personal liberty.
Except that in true capitalism, the government does NOT do ANY type of wage or price control. No minimum wage, for one. Minimum wage is a socialistic element. So on the low end, you'll have slave labor, and on the high end, you'll have filthy rich corporate executives (Just like we have now, but moreso). True capitalism tends toward larger and larger companies, which eventually results in monopolies. At that point, you either accept government regulation (Government-operated companies = Socialism), forced government intervention by way of splitting the company (More socialism), or just let them control the entire industry (Capitalistic slavery). In other words, true capitalism is just as dangerous as true socialism.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)
Ian Shlasko wrote:
the government does NOT do ANY type of wage or price control
Its called respecting property rights. A person's labor is his/her property, and should be exchanged at the rate they agree upon. If a company wants workers, then they have to give them incentives to work. Over in China and similar countries, their economy is extremely regulated, they have slave labor camps where women live in factories, they have no choice because their government controls the economy.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
True capitalism tends toward larger and larger companies
No it doesn't, it tends to private individuals trading and innovating. That how how America because the most prosperous nation in the world. There was the sovereign free individual and the free market for him to make money and buy goods and services. You are thinking of Corpratacracy again, that is something different than capitalism, that is why they have different words designated to them, they are not one in the same. Again, you are one who is stuck in left vs right, capitalism vs socialism, coke vs pepsi... Its a fixed game, you will get nothing but a corporate run government, managed offshore, having their way with our money, labor, and natural resources.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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You know who holds the 2nd spot on biggest act of terrorism in the US? Oklahoma City. You know, those right wing christians that blew up a building of government workers that weren't even in the same state as the people that angered them... But hey, that's not a big deal. Ever see what sort of terror is inflicted on people trying to get an abortion in certain states? Radical fanatics are pretty much the same, no matter what religion they come from.
The government did that as a false-flag style op. They do that kind of thing all the time. There are even some old plans to go to war with Cuba called Operation Northwoods (declassified, look it up and read the documenet). Northwoods involves the CIA running a false-flag attack on one of our major cities and blaming it on the communists.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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You realized that you lost the argument, so you're changing the subject. The argument you're debating against is:
Government regulation == SocialismProud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
the government does NOT do ANY type of wage or price control
Its called respecting property rights. A person's labor is his/her property, and should be exchanged at the rate they agree upon. If a company wants workers, then they have to give them incentives to work. Over in China and similar countries, their economy is extremely regulated, they have slave labor camps where women live in factories, they have no choice because their government controls the economy.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
True capitalism tends toward larger and larger companies
No it doesn't, it tends to private individuals trading and innovating. That how how America because the most prosperous nation in the world. There was the sovereign free individual and the free market for him to make money and buy goods and services. You are thinking of Corpratacracy again, that is something different than capitalism, that is why they have different words designated to them, they are not one in the same. Again, you are one who is stuck in left vs right, capitalism vs socialism, coke vs pepsi... Its a fixed game, you will get nothing but a corporate run government, managed offshore, having their way with our money, labor, and natural resources.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Its called respecting property rights. A person's labor is his/her property, and should be exchanged at the rate they agree upon. If a company wants workers, then they have to give them incentives to work. Over in China and similar countries, their economy is extremely regulated, they have slave labor camps where women live in factories, they have no choice because their government controls the economy.
Option 1: Work for the local megacorp at slave wages. Option 2: Starve, because no one else is hiring. Sure, it's free choice, but that doesn't mean the options are fair.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
No it doesn't, it tends to private individuals trading and innovating. That how how America because the most prosperous nation in the world. There was the sovereign free individual and the free market for him to make money and buy goods and services.
Not in the era of mass production, where you get more efficient the larger you get. Just look at Walmart, for an example of one on its way up. Then we have Microsoft, who would be a complete monopoly instead of a partial monopoly, if not for government intervention (Socialism). The "baby Bells" are an edge case, as I think Bell might have had a bit of government help to begin with, until they were forcibly broken up (Socialism). The auto companies are huge conglomerates, and would probably be playing slave wages if not for the labor unions (Socialism) This is what capitalism leads to... And this is where some amount of socialism (Government regulation) is necessary to preserve fairness.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)
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You believe he actually said something worth reading? He is the type of people that ruthlessly demonize Christians while at the same time say they are more radical that muslims, inject some racism, and do it with great disdain.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You believe he actually said something worth reading?
We have already learnt what a non sequitur is, you do not have to provide any more examples.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
He is the type of people that ruthlessly demonize Christians
He merely points out the failings of those Christian sects that seek to force their beliefs upon society.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
while at the same time say they are more radical that muslims
He said that in the history of the USA, more terrorist acts had been perpetrated by 'Christian' sects than by muslims. Can you prove otherwise?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
inject some racism
Where?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
and do it with great disdain
Pot, Kettle
Bob Emmett @ Ynys Thanatos
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Its called respecting property rights. A person's labor is his/her property, and should be exchanged at the rate they agree upon. If a company wants workers, then they have to give them incentives to work. Over in China and similar countries, their economy is extremely regulated, they have slave labor camps where women live in factories, they have no choice because their government controls the economy.
Option 1: Work for the local megacorp at slave wages. Option 2: Starve, because no one else is hiring. Sure, it's free choice, but that doesn't mean the options are fair.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
No it doesn't, it tends to private individuals trading and innovating. That how how America because the most prosperous nation in the world. There was the sovereign free individual and the free market for him to make money and buy goods and services.
Not in the era of mass production, where you get more efficient the larger you get. Just look at Walmart, for an example of one on its way up. Then we have Microsoft, who would be a complete monopoly instead of a partial monopoly, if not for government intervention (Socialism). The "baby Bells" are an edge case, as I think Bell might have had a bit of government help to begin with, until they were forcibly broken up (Socialism). The auto companies are huge conglomerates, and would probably be playing slave wages if not for the labor unions (Socialism) This is what capitalism leads to... And this is where some amount of socialism (Government regulation) is necessary to preserve fairness.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)
Let me define socialism for you so that you stop futilely pounding this. A theory or system of social organization that advocates the transition of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., to the government.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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Let me define socialism for you so that you stop futilely pounding this. A theory or system of social organization that advocates the transition of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., to the government.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole. Whoops, you seem to have changed that. It's not the government in charge, it is the people. Now this might be a thin line of distinction, but it shows WHO is in charge, not beaurocrats, but the people. If we don't like the corporations poisoning our water, we fix it.
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The government did that as a false-flag style op. They do that kind of thing all the time. There are even some old plans to go to war with Cuba called Operation Northwoods (declassified, look it up and read the documenet). Northwoods involves the CIA running a false-flag attack on one of our major cities and blaming it on the communists.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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You are stuck in the left-right paradigm.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You are stuck in the left-right paradigm.
Did you not notice it was 'left' and 'right'? Which kind of indicates that I am not. Is there anything that you do understand?
Bob Emmett @ Ynys Thanatos
Bob Emmett wrote:
Is there anything that you do understand?
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a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole. Whoops, you seem to have changed that. It's not the government in charge, it is the people. Now this might be a thin line of distinction, but it shows WHO is in charge, not beaurocrats, but the people. If we don't like the corporations poisoning our water, we fix it.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
It's not the government in charge, it is the people.
Riiight... :rolleyes:
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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ragnaroknrol wrote:
It's not the government in charge, it is the people.
Riiight... :rolleyes:
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
wow, the theory is defined one way, you decide to change the definition (people make up unions and so they fall under a socialist convention) and you then respond with this? Really? I should expect this. You couldn't be bothered to read for content, obviously. Black propaganda showed that much.
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The government did that as a false-flag style op. They do that kind of thing all the time. There are even some old plans to go to war with Cuba called Operation Northwoods (declassified, look it up and read the documenet). Northwoods involves the CIA running a false-flag attack on one of our major cities and blaming it on the communists.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The government did that as a false-flag style op
Really? Cause the nutjob they caught was all about taking credit and was pretty blatent about it. Oh, by the way, calling something a false flag op doesn't work when it is YOUR OWN FREAKING CITIZENS. who's going to rally to our flag when the enemy is a bunch of religious nutjobs inside the country? I'd say look up the definition of false-flag operations, but, well, we all know how well that would work.
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It'd be the arugment you attempted to start. However the bit about a minority grabbing power reminds me a lot of that ruling over corporate donations the last week. Socialism is the reaction people had to extreme capitalism. Effectively. The problem that so many people don't seem to understand, including yourself and some of the more inane depopulation schemes you're convinced of, is that without the people having a decent amount of money, demand for products will drop. When demand drops companies cut jobs, cutting demand, causing more jobs to be cut, causing more people to be destitute. Eventually we wind up with the next generation hooverville and wonder what went wrong. Capitalism has no natural defense against this without regulation, they can and will cut their own leg off attempting to trim their toe nails because they think they'll be lighter without the leg. No leg, no walking, no customers, no business. And frankly, next person who backs supply side economics is going to get supplied with a backhand and then I'm going to ask how much he was willing to pay for another. But I've completely left the topic, so I'll stop.
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I'll do a response for this one.
Christian Graus wrote:
Where ? In America ?
I'll go so far as to agree with CSS on the fact that they're being demonized (not persecuted). Anyone that subscribes to a religion is called insane or stupid, something of that nature. In America, and any western land.
Christian Graus wrote:
Again, where is the correlation ? Do you mean the persecution of Muslims ?
I could believe this, but I don't know where he was going with this.
Christian Graus wrote:
CaptainSeeSharp wrote: Now they are shifting the definition of a terrorist to right-wingers, pro-lifers, gun owners, and Christians Who is ?
"Liberals". Boy, has that word got screwed up over the past fifty years.
Christian Graus wrote:
CaptainSeeSharp wrote: People have become so programmed using the word terrorist that it is like pushing a button on people to make this do what you want. Its a psychological operation. And it's in your head.
No, I'd agree with CSS on this one. Terrorism is a dirty word, of course, and always has been. But it's thrown around so easily that it's just turning into a namecalling. Just like "right-wing extremist". They're just general words that mean nothing after some time.
josda1000 wrote:
Anyone that subscribes to a religion is called insane or stupid, something of that nature. In America, and any western land.
Jhn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. So ?
josda1000 wrote:
"Liberals". Boy, has that word got screwed up over the past fifty years.
Yes, it means the opposite of what it used to mean, in the USA only. The liberal party here is right wing. However, let's remember that some 'pro lifers' kill abortion doctors, and some gun owners are all about the coming apocalypse. Let's also remember that being a Christian does not mean owning a gun, being anti abortion, or being right wing.
josda1000 wrote:
Terrorism is a dirty word, of course, and always has been. But it's thrown around so easily that it's just turning into a namecalling. Just like "right-wing extremist". They're just general words that mean nothing after some time.
Well, that could be true. Except he used the word 'programmed' and generally implied that 9/11 was an inside job for the purpose of creating a focus on terrorism, so that the definition of terrorist could be broadened to include Christians ( and let's not forget this started with his completely faulty claim of a coming world government and antiChrist figure who beheads Christians, literally )
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Oh but islam is a religion of peace right?
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]