The Core
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Neither does the universe does it?
Well, good comeback. Except that it makes no sense on several levels. 1 - the universe as a whole does follow natural law in a self perpetuating manner 2 - so what ? the point is that your post is meaningless. No-one is trying to take those rights away from me, and I doubt they want to take them from you, either. If you had the system you dream of, you'd still complain that someone, somewhere, was controlling your life. It's what you do.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
1 - the universe as a whole does follow natural law in a self perpetuating manner
Horseshit, pure horseshit. Thought he said DOES NOT.
Christian Graus wrote:
2 - so what ?
Ever heard of property tax? You have no rights, you have no liberty. You only have privileges granted to you by your authorities.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
modified on Thursday, February 18, 2010 7:11 PM
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
It's a decentralized self-balancing system.
As I said below, no, it's not. It's a fantasy. Sure, those things matter, but they don't just magically exist and magically arbitrate themselves.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Yes, they actually kind of do. Not the ideas per se, but the backing of said ideas. Life - Self defense. You see birds, dogs, every living animal always protecting itself and its children (mostly). Liberty - freedom. Everyone always has his own ideas and will express them, unless inhibited by himself. Property - the core of rights. Animals also know property at a very instinctual level, and protect his property. Look at dogs. Dogs bury their bones, love their houses, bark when hungry and know where to find food. They just have that level of instinct. They do not magically arbitrate themselves, but it's a part of nature. They preexist governments. That's the point of this whole thing; they are not created by government, but the government was created by us, and we are a part of nature. And therefore we have a very basic right to self preservation and property. It's no fantasy, it's nature.
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How would you administer that without Big Government interfering to "ensure" those rights are upheld?
martin_hughes wrote:
How would you administer that without Big Government interfering to "ensure" those rights are upheld?
The Constitution is the blueprint of the system.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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How would you administer that without Big Government interfering to "ensure" those rights are upheld?
Let me answer this a bit. The point to government is precisely to ensure property rights, absolutely. So there is a need for a limited government. Policing, taxation, law makers, judges. that's probably about it. There's no need for things like homeland security, FDA, that kind of thing. If you just understand property and ownership, all law would follow suit, and there would be no problem at all. No big fucking government to trample over everyone, but a very fair and just government that just looks out for property rights.
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martin_hughes wrote:
How would you administer that without Big Government interfering to "ensure" those rights are upheld?
The Constitution is the blueprint of the system.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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Yes, they actually kind of do. Not the ideas per se, but the backing of said ideas. Life - Self defense. You see birds, dogs, every living animal always protecting itself and its children (mostly). Liberty - freedom. Everyone always has his own ideas and will express them, unless inhibited by himself. Property - the core of rights. Animals also know property at a very instinctual level, and protect his property. Look at dogs. Dogs bury their bones, love their houses, bark when hungry and know where to find food. They just have that level of instinct. They do not magically arbitrate themselves, but it's a part of nature. They preexist governments. That's the point of this whole thing; they are not created by government, but the government was created by us, and we are a part of nature. And therefore we have a very basic right to self preservation and property. It's no fantasy, it's nature.
josda1000 wrote:
Animals also know property at a very instinctual level, and protect his property.
Cats have their own territories that they defend and exploit. It is like their own property.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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Christian Graus wrote:
1 - the universe as a whole does follow natural law in a self perpetuating manner
Horseshit, pure horseshit. Thought he said DOES NOT.
Christian Graus wrote:
2 - so what ?
Ever heard of property tax? You have no rights, you have no liberty. You only have privileges granted to you by your authorities.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
modified on Thursday, February 18, 2010 7:11 PM
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Horseshit, pure horseshit.
Really ? The universe is totally random ? Physics is also a lie ?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Ever heard of property tax?
Yes, I have to pay that on my rental property, but not on the property I own.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You have no rights, you have no liberty
I have a lot more liberty than you, which comes from applying myself to life instead of watching you tube all day. In a capitalist society, liberty is in some ways defined by wealth. However, I can't think of a personal liberty that I lack, and I certainly have rights. Property tax is an example of something that would differ between countries, I assume you have to pay it on your residence. I also need to pay rates ( which pay for water and for garbage pickup ) and taxes ( which pay for schools and police ). No matter what happens, you will always complain. It's got nothing to do with justice, it's got to do with your feelings of inadequacy.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Yes, they actually kind of do. Not the ideas per se, but the backing of said ideas. Life - Self defense. You see birds, dogs, every living animal always protecting itself and its children (mostly). Liberty - freedom. Everyone always has his own ideas and will express them, unless inhibited by himself. Property - the core of rights. Animals also know property at a very instinctual level, and protect his property. Look at dogs. Dogs bury their bones, love their houses, bark when hungry and know where to find food. They just have that level of instinct. They do not magically arbitrate themselves, but it's a part of nature. They preexist governments. That's the point of this whole thing; they are not created by government, but the government was created by us, and we are a part of nature. And therefore we have a very basic right to self preservation and property. It's no fantasy, it's nature.
josda1000 wrote:
And therefore we have a very basic right to self preservation and property. It's no fantasy, it's nature.
The real point is, I can't think of any way that my right to those things is being limited in any way.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
1 - the universe as a whole does follow natural law in a self perpetuating manner
Horseshit, pure horseshit. Thought he said DOES NOT.
Christian Graus wrote:
2 - so what ?
Ever heard of property tax? You have no rights, you have no liberty. You only have privileges granted to you by your authorities.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
modified on Thursday, February 18, 2010 7:11 PM
OK wait, I disagree... The universe does follow natural law. Absolutely. And so would we, if we were to be left alone a bit more from out benevolent federal government. And about property tax... yeah. If we had Allodial Title to our land, we wouldn't be taxed on property. But instead we have land deeds, not the grant itself. So we're under a Fee Simple system, where our land can be taken away (eminent domain) and we can be taxed. Just like our feudal lords back in old England.
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Except, CSS didn't say ANYTHING. He parroted a line, but gave no explanation of what it means, how it applies to modern life, etc. He's got nothing.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Let me answer this a bit. The point to government is precisely to ensure property rights, absolutely. So there is a need for a limited government. Policing, taxation, law makers, judges. that's probably about it. There's no need for things like homeland security, FDA, that kind of thing. If you just understand property and ownership, all law would follow suit, and there would be no problem at all. No big fucking government to trample over everyone, but a very fair and just government that just looks out for property rights.
josda1000 wrote:
but a very fair and just government
A very limited government whoes only task is to defend and secure the property rights and personal liberty of the people.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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Let me answer this a bit. The point to government is precisely to ensure property rights, absolutely. So there is a need for a limited government. Policing, taxation, law makers, judges. that's probably about it. There's no need for things like homeland security, FDA, that kind of thing. If you just understand property and ownership, all law would follow suit, and there would be no problem at all. No big fucking government to trample over everyone, but a very fair and just government that just looks out for property rights.
josda1000 wrote:
Policing, taxation, law makers, judges. that's probably about it
Schools should exist outside government ? I assume that means only the rich can pay for any form of schooling ? Sanitation should be left to take care of itself ? Fire departments ? I know you favour health care only for the rich, so I won't even go there.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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OK wait, I disagree... The universe does follow natural law. Absolutely. And so would we, if we were to be left alone a bit more from out benevolent federal government. And about property tax... yeah. If we had Allodial Title to our land, we wouldn't be taxed on property. But instead we have land deeds, not the grant itself. So we're under a Fee Simple system, where our land can be taken away (eminent domain) and we can be taxed. Just like our feudal lords back in old England.
josda1000 wrote:
The universe does follow natural law. Absolutely.
I agree. I thought he said it does not.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Horseshit, pure horseshit.
Really ? The universe is totally random ? Physics is also a lie ?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Ever heard of property tax?
Yes, I have to pay that on my rental property, but not on the property I own.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You have no rights, you have no liberty
I have a lot more liberty than you, which comes from applying myself to life instead of watching you tube all day. In a capitalist society, liberty is in some ways defined by wealth. However, I can't think of a personal liberty that I lack, and I certainly have rights. Property tax is an example of something that would differ between countries, I assume you have to pay it on your residence. I also need to pay rates ( which pay for water and for garbage pickup ) and taxes ( which pay for schools and police ). No matter what happens, you will always complain. It's got nothing to do with justice, it's got to do with your feelings of inadequacy.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Really ? The universe is totally random ? Physics is also a lie ?
I thought you said the universe doesn't follow natural law.
Christian Graus wrote:
but not on the property I own.
Over here we pay property tax on all lands/buildings that we own outright.
Christian Graus wrote:
I have a lot more liberty than you
You have privileges granted by your authorities that they may take away at anytime. Did you follow those links about the land grabs in your country? http://www.henrymakow.com/australian_farmers_under_siege.html[^] http://sosnews.org/newsfront/?p=467[^] http://www.alor.org/[^] http://www.protectionist.net/[^]
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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josda1000 wrote:
Policing, taxation, law makers, judges. that's probably about it
Schools should exist outside government ? I assume that means only the rich can pay for any form of schooling ? Sanitation should be left to take care of itself ? Fire departments ? I know you favour health care only for the rich, so I won't even go there.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Schools should exist outside government ?
Yes. They already do. What's your point?
Christian Graus wrote:
I assume that means only the rich can pay for any form of schooling ?
No, private schooling can be paid for by grants from the government. We already do that. What's your point?
Christian Graus wrote:
Sanitation should be left to take care of itself ?
Private industry does this already. What's your point?
Christian Graus wrote:
Fire departments ?
Local communities can come together and form volunteer fire departments. But I also think that this can be done by local governments anyway. This is very efficient when it comes to a local level, so I have no problem with this.
Christian Graus wrote:
I know you favour health care only for the rich, so I won't even go there.
No, I have a private insurance plan, and it doesn't cost me a heck of a lot each month. Putting words in my mouth once again, Christian? You're really good at trying to break me down. I'm not a rich person. Not at all. So saying that I'm only for the rich is extremely naive of you sir.
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Except, CSS didn't say ANYTHING. He parroted a line, but gave no explanation of what it means, how it applies to modern life, etc. He's got nothing.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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josda1000 wrote:
And therefore we have a very basic right to self preservation and property. It's no fantasy, it's nature.
The real point is, I can't think of any way that my right to those things is being limited in any way.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Yes, they actually kind of do. Not the ideas per se, but the backing of said ideas. Life - Self defense. You see birds, dogs, every living animal always protecting itself and its children (mostly). Liberty - freedom. Everyone always has his own ideas and will express them, unless inhibited by himself. Property - the core of rights. Animals also know property at a very instinctual level, and protect his property. Look at dogs. Dogs bury their bones, love their houses, bark when hungry and know where to find food. They just have that level of instinct. They do not magically arbitrate themselves, but it's a part of nature. They preexist governments. That's the point of this whole thing; they are not created by government, but the government was created by us, and we are a part of nature. And therefore we have a very basic right to self preservation and property. It's no fantasy, it's nature.
josda1000 wrote:
Liberty - freedom
Unless those freedoms you speak of infringe upon the freedoms of others, in which case, freedom needs a modifying influence to attempt to ensure fair play is achieved in the quest for mutual personal freedoms and liberties.
josda1000 wrote:
Property - the core of rights.
As long as you purchase/acquire outright the deed of ownership or you come to an enforceable agreement whereby you commit to continue to pay rent/mortgage otherwise does it not become a falsehood?
josda1000 wrote:
Look at dogs. Dogs bury their bones, love their houses, bark when hungry and know where to find food. They just have that level of instinct.
Yes they do, but, the instinct of dogs is one born of a pack and each pack member is subjected to the rule from the Alpha, thus the concept of ownership for the individual pack member of property again could be a falsehood.
josda1000 wrote:
They preexist governments
Order is required or chaos tends to ensue.
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Let me answer this a bit. The point to government is precisely to ensure property rights, absolutely. So there is a need for a limited government. Policing, taxation, law makers, judges. that's probably about it. There's no need for things like homeland security, FDA, that kind of thing. If you just understand property and ownership, all law would follow suit, and there would be no problem at all. No big fucking government to trample over everyone, but a very fair and just government that just looks out for property rights.
I like the idea very much, but I fear it doesn't take into account the human factor. You have some land I want. Fuck you, I'm going to take it. You pull out some guns. I pull out more guns. You appeal to the law. I buy off the lawyers. I take your land. With my new wealth I buy more political power. I influence. I become a political "force". I influence... ...and little by little I completely erode your notion of rights and make you think of them as a privilege, at my whim. The thing about any constitution is that it is only valid if it can be enforced, otherwise it becomes an ideal. The larger a population becomes the more enforcement it requires; the more enforcement it requires leads to more corruption; the more corruption there is the more it becomes an ideal.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Schools should exist outside government ?
Yes. They already do. What's your point?
Christian Graus wrote:
I assume that means only the rich can pay for any form of schooling ?
No, private schooling can be paid for by grants from the government. We already do that. What's your point?
Christian Graus wrote:
Sanitation should be left to take care of itself ?
Private industry does this already. What's your point?
Christian Graus wrote:
Fire departments ?
Local communities can come together and form volunteer fire departments. But I also think that this can be done by local governments anyway. This is very efficient when it comes to a local level, so I have no problem with this.
Christian Graus wrote:
I know you favour health care only for the rich, so I won't even go there.
No, I have a private insurance plan, and it doesn't cost me a heck of a lot each month. Putting words in my mouth once again, Christian? You're really good at trying to break me down. I'm not a rich person. Not at all. So saying that I'm only for the rich is extremely naive of you sir.
josda1000 wrote:
Yes. They already do. What's your point?
So who should pay for them ? If they are not privately funded, isn't that a form of government getting involved ?
josda1000 wrote:
No, private schooling can be paid for by grants from the government. We already do that. What's your point?
That you just involved the government, thus explanding their role
josda1000 wrote:
Private industry does this already. What's your point?
Really ? There's no rules protecting people from unsanitary kitchens, for example ? If I tin cats and call it beef, then so long as no-one ever knows the difference, that's OK ?
josda1000 wrote:
Local communities can come together and form volunteer fire departments. But I also think that this can be done by local governments anyway. This is very efficient when it comes to a local level, so I have no problem with this.
So, it involves government again ? See how your definition expands when you examine it ? This was my core point.
josda1000 wrote:
No, I have a private insurance plan, and it doesn't cost me a heck of a lot each month. Putting words in my mouth once again, Christian? You're really good at trying to break me down.
So, health is for people who can afford insurance ? That's what I was trying to say.
josda1000 wrote:
So saying that I'm only for the rich is extremely naive of you sir.
OK, I admit it was hyperbole. I meant, I'm sure you're not in favour of any sort of government backed health system.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.