A letter from Larken Rose on the events transpiring yesterday in Austin.
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Distind wrote:
He committed an act with no purpose other than to cause fear.
Apparently you did not read the letter. Please do so. The reason he did it was because of personal issues with the IRS, whether he was in the right or not.
Oh, so it's not terrorism if you only terrorize people, just if you don't have some justifiable grudge against the target. Oh, wait a second, I have another report just in, 9/11 was not an act of terrorism either as there are very good reasons those involved would like to bomb the living hell out of the US.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Webster's Dictionary of Law: 1 : the unlawful use or threat of violence esp. against the state or the public as a politically motivated means of attack or coercion
When talking about it in this way, I'd say that if that law is unjust, then yes, crimes will be committed in order to show that the law is unjust and try to repeal it. When people submit to laws that are directed against liberty and our own decision making, it is just wrong. We have a right to the fruits of our labor, not the government. That's the basis of this whole thing.
josda1000 wrote:
When talking about it in this way, I'd say that if that law is unjust, then yes, crimes will be committed in order to show that the law is unjust and try to repeal it. When people submit to laws that are directed against liberty and our own decision making, it is just wrong. We have a right to the fruits of our labor, not the government. That's the basis of this whole thing.
The key to dealing with this is admitting that if the American revolution where to occur now we would have been labeled terrorists, and we very much did commit such acts during it. This flimsy rationalizing isn't going to get you anywhere.
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OK I see your points... BUT! Please do not call it terrorism. It's just a crime, I would argue. Calling it terrorism leads to the idea of domestic terrorism, and then opens a pandora's box of namecalling that may never close. People will start calling normal thinking people such as myself (however unpopular I am) as terrorists, as the MIAC report has already done. Yes, he did something extreme and committed suicide and a crime. But he did not commit an act of terrorism, just because Princeton tends to define it a certain way. What about a dictionary or something? But even then I just can't do such a thing and call this guy a terrorist.
josda1000, what exactly disqualifies this from being terrorism, that he had a small plane rather than a large one, that his goals were political rather than political-religious, or that his target was an IRS building rather that the Pentagon? Barring you giving me some good reason not to consider this act what it so obviously is, then I'm going to continue calling this particular suicide dive-bomber a terrorist.
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Oh, so it's not terrorism if you only terrorize people, just if you don't have some justifiable grudge against the target. Oh, wait a second, I have another report just in, 9/11 was not an act of terrorism either as there are very good reasons those involved would like to bomb the living hell out of the US.
Yes because so many fucking people are in fear right now, aren't they? Nobody's in fear, they know it's over. Yes, people were killed and a couple of buildings are destroyed. But the one that caused this destruction is dead. It's over. Life goes on. 9/11 can be considered terrorism (if you believe the official story), because those who'd committed the act were a part of a group, and that group still exists.
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josda1000 wrote:
When talking about it in this way, I'd say that if that law is unjust, then yes, crimes will be committed in order to show that the law is unjust and try to repeal it. When people submit to laws that are directed against liberty and our own decision making, it is just wrong. We have a right to the fruits of our labor, not the government. That's the basis of this whole thing.
The key to dealing with this is admitting that if the American revolution where to occur now we would have been labeled terrorists, and we very much did commit such acts during it. This flimsy rationalizing isn't going to get you anywhere.
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So you would submit to that law? With lack of freedom? What was this country built on? New Hampshire's slogan is: "Live free or die." The steps of the Archives of the United States of America has a plaque: "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty." When laws are corrupt and unjust, people will sacrifice their lives for freedom. That's what you saw in this statement. Call it terrorism, call it a massacre. I call it a statement for freedom.
Ok, so I missed option three, "Revolt." But that option applies to groups, not individuals. A revolution or other regime change isn't going to be feasible until the number/strength of the people opposed to the government are greater than the number/strength of the people in favor, disregarding those who are lazy/apathetic. One guy flying a plane into a building isn't a revolution.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel) -
Oh I totally agree. But this one guy is not a terrorist. He did something out of personal rage, and was not organized in any particular group. The Continental army was a group. This one guy is one guy.
josda1000 wrote:
This one guy is one guy.
Just like Ted Kaczynski.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Webster's Dictionary of Law: 1 : the unlawful use or threat of violence esp. against the state or the public as a politically motivated means of attack or coercion
When talking about it in this way, I'd say that if that law is unjust, then yes, crimes will be committed in order to show that the law is unjust and try to repeal it. When people submit to laws that are directed against liberty and our own decision making, it is just wrong. We have a right to the fruits of our labor, not the government. That's the basis of this whole thing.
Doesn't matter whether it's just or unjust. It's still terrorism. Doesn't matter if it's one disenfranchised pilot, four guys in a car full of dynamite, or all of Al Qaeda. It's still terrorism. The founding fathers, and the rest of the continental army, were terrorists. Of course, since they won, they were the good guys. If they had lost, they would have just been termed a terrorist group that had been eradicated. I'm talking about semantics, not morals.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel) -
Yes because so many fucking people are in fear right now, aren't they? Nobody's in fear, they know it's over. Yes, people were killed and a couple of buildings are destroyed. But the one that caused this destruction is dead. It's over. Life goes on. 9/11 can be considered terrorism (if you believe the official story), because those who'd committed the act were a part of a group, and that group still exists.
josda1000 wrote:
Nobody's in fear, they know it's over. Yes, people were killed and a couple of buildings are destroyed. But the one that caused this destruction is dead. It's over. Life goes on.
I wish... Take it from someone who lives in NYC. There are plenty of people who still factor "Danger of being killed by terrorists" into their decisions, and worry that every fire, building collapse, or shooting is a terrorist attack. I'm not one of them, but they do still exist. I don't have a published source, just my own personal observations of my fellow New Yorkers.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel) -
Doesn't matter whether it's just or unjust. It's still terrorism. Doesn't matter if it's one disenfranchised pilot, four guys in a car full of dynamite, or all of Al Qaeda. It's still terrorism. The founding fathers, and the rest of the continental army, were terrorists. Of course, since they won, they were the good guys. If they had lost, they would have just been termed a terrorist group that had been eradicated. I'm talking about semantics, not morals.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)And the whole point IS about morals. Yes, you're talking semantics. But I still think it's wrong. Eventually you'd be calling people such as myself terrorists, getting away from definition or whatnot. Of course, that may just be my mind playing tricks on me... but think about it.
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Doesn't matter whether it's just or unjust. It's still terrorism. Doesn't matter if it's one disenfranchised pilot, four guys in a car full of dynamite, or all of Al Qaeda. It's still terrorism. The founding fathers, and the rest of the continental army, were terrorists. Of course, since they won, they were the good guys. If they had lost, they would have just been termed a terrorist group that had been eradicated. I'm talking about semantics, not morals.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)They were the good guys regardless if they won or not. Their cause was just, reasonable, common sense. With your logic, any women who fights back against a rapist and looses, deserved to be raped and punished.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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josda1000 wrote:
Nobody's in fear, they know it's over. Yes, people were killed and a couple of buildings are destroyed. But the one that caused this destruction is dead. It's over. Life goes on.
I wish... Take it from someone who lives in NYC. There are plenty of people who still factor "Danger of being killed by terrorists" into their decisions, and worry that every fire, building collapse, or shooting is a terrorist attack. I'm not one of them, but they do still exist. I don't have a published source, just my own personal observations of my fellow New Yorkers.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel) -
They were the good guys regardless if they won or not. Their cause was just, reasonable, common sense. With your logic, any women who fights back against a rapist and looses, deserved to be raped and punished.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
Are you really this stupid? Is a woman fighting back against a rapist using "violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes"? No. So that has absolutely nothing to do with terrorism. Get back in your cage.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel) -
And the whole point IS about morals. Yes, you're talking semantics. But I still think it's wrong. Eventually you'd be calling people such as myself terrorists, getting away from definition or whatnot. Of course, that may just be my mind playing tricks on me... but think about it.
If you started bombing buildings, shooting people, etc... Then yes, you'd be called a terrorist. As long as your actions are non-violent, the definition does not apply.
Terrorism = Violence && (Political || Ideological || Religious)Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel) -
I'm not talking about 9/11. I've already confirmed that 9/11 was terrorism. I'm talking about yesterday. That was not about fear. It was about the IRS, killing about 5 people, not a commercial building that killed 3000 people.
Ah, ok. My mistake.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel) -
josda1000 wrote:
This one guy is one guy.
Just like Ted Kaczynski.
That so needs a +5. :thumbsup:
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. [Yogi Berra]
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If you started bombing buildings, shooting people, etc... Then yes, you'd be called a terrorist. As long as your actions are non-violent, the definition does not apply.
Terrorism = Violence && (Political || Ideological || Religious)Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)lol nice way of putting it. but you know how people namecall for no reason in this country. slander exists, and that's what i'm afraid of in the first place. incidents happen, and then they are called terrorists without ever hearing a word from them. why haven't we heard about the "terrorist" that was on the detroit flight? and the shooting at fort hood? why is everything happening at once, but these guys do not get interviewed? aren't there two sides to the story? do you see my point? they are called names, without hearing their version of why they did it. what if it wasn't terrorism? what if these things were done by actually someone completely different, and they're innocent? why are these questions never asked? it's a loaded word, whether clearly defined somewhere or not. it's thrown around to create fear. the problem is, the action itself may not even actually cause any fear, it's the hype. but technically, sure, you're right on. i just see it in the context of the real world and see that it's all hype and namecalling.
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Are you really this stupid? Is a woman fighting back against a rapist using "violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes"? No. So that has absolutely nothing to do with terrorism. Get back in your cage.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)Ian, it's a violation of rights. IRS stealing money from everyone every year, or a rapist saying that it's just to rape. they are both stealing rights (right to own one's body, right to own personal wealth.) Just because a law makes it legal to steal (IRS) doesn't mean it's right. And just because a law says you can't commit a crime against a state doesn't mean that it's right either (though it is obviously taboo, and obviously ANY state would say that you can't commit a crime against it.) The point is that just because a group of people say one thing is right doesn't make it just. That's the whole point to a republic (as defined today), the rights of the few are protected against the many. Democracy says that the majority wins. Republic says that the law wins, the natural rights win. So while the rapist argument has nothing to do with terrorism, the idea is related.
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lol nice way of putting it. but you know how people namecall for no reason in this country. slander exists, and that's what i'm afraid of in the first place. incidents happen, and then they are called terrorists without ever hearing a word from them. why haven't we heard about the "terrorist" that was on the detroit flight? and the shooting at fort hood? why is everything happening at once, but these guys do not get interviewed? aren't there two sides to the story? do you see my point? they are called names, without hearing their version of why they did it. what if it wasn't terrorism? what if these things were done by actually someone completely different, and they're innocent? why are these questions never asked? it's a loaded word, whether clearly defined somewhere or not. it's thrown around to create fear. the problem is, the action itself may not even actually cause any fear, it's the hype. but technically, sure, you're right on. i just see it in the context of the real world and see that it's all hype and namecalling.
Yeah, I do agree that it's overused nowadays. The Detroit flight... Was that the so-called underwear bomber? I think he was part of Al Qaeda, so that makes it pretty obvious. The Fort Hood shooter, I don't remember the details, but I think he was in contact with Al Qaeda... Not sure what his motivation was (I remember keeping CNN on my screen that day to get every detail, but it's been a while)... The problem with getting the other side of the story, most of the time, is that generally these guys don't survive their own attack. Stack was considerate enough to explain his exact motivation, so we can analyze it pretty easily.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel) -
Ian, it's a violation of rights. IRS stealing money from everyone every year, or a rapist saying that it's just to rape. they are both stealing rights (right to own one's body, right to own personal wealth.) Just because a law makes it legal to steal (IRS) doesn't mean it's right. And just because a law says you can't commit a crime against a state doesn't mean that it's right either (though it is obviously taboo, and obviously ANY state would say that you can't commit a crime against it.) The point is that just because a group of people say one thing is right doesn't make it just. That's the whole point to a republic (as defined today), the rights of the few are protected against the many. Democracy says that the majority wins. Republic says that the law wins, the natural rights win. So while the rapist argument has nothing to do with terrorism, the idea is related.
josda1000 wrote:
So while the rapist argument has nothing to do with terrorism, the idea is related.
No, CSS is missing the
(Political || Ideological || Religious)part of the equation. It's not terrorism if you're just defending yourself. It's not terrorism if you're protecting a friend or family member. Terrorism is defined by violence and motivation.josda1000 wrote:
Just because a law makes it legal to steal (IRS) doesn't mean it's right.
You call it stealing. The government calls it the cost of doing business. The government needs money to operate, and that money is (in principle) being collected spent for our benefit. If you want to make the case that it's being used inefficiently and perhaps unethically, then I don't think you'd get many arguments here. But it's not "wrong" to collect taxes.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)