A letter from Larken Rose on the events transpiring yesterday in Austin.
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Yes. If things are so black and white for you, that's cool with me. I tend to see both sides of every story and I don't jump to conclusions. You stick to your beautiful CNN prefiltered media, I'll investigate for myself.
I don't watch CNN. But Terrorism is a word with a definition. You seem to be trying to make it out to be a nasty word that is only associated with Al-Qaeda or some other Anti-American sect out in the world. What I am tired of is people taking simple concepts and twisting them into complex ideas to fit an agenda. What is the issue with saying some pissed off nutbag American terrorist flew a plane into a building? I hate the IRS just as much as the next guy and the government as a whole. But that doesn't change the fact that Joe Stack was a terrorist. I was born and raised and still live in New Hampshire by the way! ;)
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Oh brother, come on. Look, what I'm saying is that this is ONE guy. Terrorists from Alqaeda and such are a GROUP. Yes, they strike with suicide bombers, but there's a bunch more where that comes from, because that's a GROUP of bombers. Suicides such as this last incident was from ONE GUY. ONE. JUST ONE. That's it. It's over. Done. Finito. Notice that nobody's afraid he'll attack again, while people are afraid that Alqaeda will, because there are MORE! There is no more fear of this man. He's gone.
While you're going around chastising others for not reading the mans suicide note, perhaps you could be bothered to read it yourself. The man was clearly hoping to inspire others to violence. That is what changes this from a random act of violence (a la Amy Bishop) to a terrorist act.
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Joe Simes wrote:
He didn't shoot his wife he targeted a building of total strangers who he hoped worked for the IRS, a governmental agency he had an issue with.
Yes. Absolutely.
Joe Simes wrote:
Why are you getting hung up on a word.
Because it'll be used, and is used, willy-nilly in this country. That's all.
And you still didn't concede the point. If flying a plane into a building of people you don't like is a terrorist act, he fit the bill. Considering 9/11 fit the bill, so does he. Terrorism does not need to be an organization. For all we know 1 person sent envelopes filled with white powder to people all over the US. Tell me that wasn't a terrorist act. We know the unibomber was 1 guy, was he a terrorist? They put a classified a US citizen as a terrorist for trying to light his shoe on fire with explosives inside. He was obviously not part of an organization since anyone with a clue would have told him it would not work. The US is ignoring the number of abortion doctors currently living in fear because of nutjob right wingers that think they are allowed by God to kill abortion doctors. They get fires, and a few have been killed. Are these folks terrorists? Mad at a group that stormed a religious fanatics compound so you load a truck full of fertilizer and take out a govenment building in a completely different state? Terrorist? A guy flies a plane into a building hoping to kill a bunch of government employees. Terrorist? So exactly what does a person have to do to qualify for the term? Not do it for a reason you agree with?
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Joe Simes wrote:
He didn't shoot his wife he targeted a building of total strangers who he hoped worked for the IRS, a governmental agency he had an issue with.
Yes. Absolutely.
Joe Simes wrote:
Why are you getting hung up on a word.
Because it'll be used, and is used, willy-nilly in this country. That's all.
josda1000 wrote:
Because it'll be used, and is used, willy-nilly in this country. That's all.
The word murderer is used by the like of PETA to refer to chicken farmers. That's ridiculous as well, but it doesn't mean that when someone randomly guns down another person in the street we shouldn't call him exactly what he is.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
The Fort Hood shooter, I don't remember the details, but I think he was in contact with Al Qaeda... Not sure what his motivation was (I remember keeping CNN on my screen that day to get every detail, but it's been a while)...
He had been harrassed and subject to discrimination for being a muslim. He snapped, went stupidly off the deep end and ended up everything that they accused him of. Reports vary as to how close to the edge he was when the incidents happened, but either way the guy was unstable and found someone to justify his actions to him "because they hated him and were evil" so he could take the next step. What's getting to me is how a group that hates some guy for going nuts when treated poorly by the government has no issues with a guy that went nuts when treated poorly by the government. Guess being white means you aren't a terrorist.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
Guess being white means you aren't a terrorist.
Welcome to the 21st century. Say you blow up a building... If you're muslim, you're a terrorist If you're white, you're a disenfranchised employee If you're black, you're a gangster If you're rich, you're accident-prone If you're a politician-- Wait, you didn't do it. That muslim guy over there did it Disclaimer: This post is intended merely as humorous satire... And I take no responsibility if parts of it happen to coincide with reality.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel) -
"The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises... but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States." Reread that last line yourself. Hell, I'll lay it out for you. Power to lay and collect Taxes Duties, Imposts and Excises but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States." do you see your problem? Let me highlight. collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform So you are income taxes are unconstitutional and should be a flat tax... Even though at no point in time are taxes stated as being uniform. They put in each case in the first part, and left out taxes in the second. Income tax is constitutional, and it doesn't have to be uniform.
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ragnaroknrol wrote:
Guess being white means you aren't a terrorist.
Welcome to the 21st century. Say you blow up a building... If you're muslim, you're a terrorist If you're white, you're a disenfranchised employee If you're black, you're a gangster If you're rich, you're accident-prone If you're a politician-- Wait, you didn't do it. That muslim guy over there did it Disclaimer: This post is intended merely as humorous satire... And I take no responsibility if parts of it happen to coincide with reality.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)If you are hispanic, you are are a damn illegal terrorist that took jobs away from honest hard working Americans that didn't want to do those jobs anyway, but dammit, they took them.
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While you're going around chastising others for not reading the mans suicide note, perhaps you could be bothered to read it yourself. The man was clearly hoping to inspire others to violence. That is what changes this from a random act of violence (a la Amy Bishop) to a terrorist act.
No he wasn't inciting people to violence. He wanted people to wake up and take their lives back. He was extreme with his measure, however he was just trying to make a statement. He wanted people to become aware of the system, not to incite to violence.
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So they used a redundant statement? Or they were just stupid? Or they meant that if you collected $5 from Bill for making $100 that year you also had to collect $5 from Jack for making the same amount? Which is how it is supposed to happen unless you have a crap ton of money, so you can shelter everything. (Blame Reagan)
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No he wasn't inciting people to violence. He wanted people to wake up and take their lives back. He was extreme with his measure, however he was just trying to make a statement. He wanted people to become aware of the system, not to incite to violence.
You make people aware of the system with protests, demonstrations, or advertsising of some sort. Heck, you have a show. YOU KNOW THIS. You don't make people aware of the system by KILLING PEOPLE RANDOMLY
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And you still didn't concede the point. If flying a plane into a building of people you don't like is a terrorist act, he fit the bill. Considering 9/11 fit the bill, so does he. Terrorism does not need to be an organization. For all we know 1 person sent envelopes filled with white powder to people all over the US. Tell me that wasn't a terrorist act. We know the unibomber was 1 guy, was he a terrorist? They put a classified a US citizen as a terrorist for trying to light his shoe on fire with explosives inside. He was obviously not part of an organization since anyone with a clue would have told him it would not work. The US is ignoring the number of abortion doctors currently living in fear because of nutjob right wingers that think they are allowed by God to kill abortion doctors. They get fires, and a few have been killed. Are these folks terrorists? Mad at a group that stormed a religious fanatics compound so you load a truck full of fertilizer and take out a govenment building in a completely different state? Terrorist? A guy flies a plane into a building hoping to kill a bunch of government employees. Terrorist? So exactly what does a person have to do to qualify for the term? Not do it for a reason you agree with?
No, I do not concede the point. Maybe I am wrong, but I still believe that it is not terrorism. Because yes, it does instill fear into those involved, however, it will not last, and it was just ONE person, ONE time. In order for it to be terrorism, he has to instill fear. 9/11 lasted a while, and arguably goes on to this day. But that's it! Just once! The guy is gone! If a guy bombs a bank, is that terrorism? Does it instill fear? Yes. But it's over with in a matter of hours, though the damage lasts a while. The game's over! It's a crime, and it's one incident, it's over!
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Ok, so I missed option three, "Revolt." But that option applies to groups, not individuals.
I'm glad you see what I've been trying to say. Terrorism has more to do with groups, not individuals. You must have a lot of small attacks about one specific point to really have a revolution or any terrorism at all. One guy doing one attack is not terrorism, it's an incident.
No, terrorism can apply to an individual. When it happens once, it's a "terrorist act." I said a revolt only applies to groups, because let's face it... One person can't overthrow the government. One person can TRY to revolt, but it's pointless and ineffective. One person can commit a terrorist act, though. An act such as, let's say... Sending a politician a mail bomb, gunning down a bunch of people, blowing up a building, setting fire to an abortion clinic... These are all terrorist acts if they fit the criteria of having political, ideological, or religious motivation. This guy flew a plane into a building because of his political and ideological opposition to the IRS. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. I understand what you're trying to do here, avoiding the "terrorist" label for fear of it becoming too common and misused... But in this specific situation, it DOES apply.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel) -
You make people aware of the system with protests, demonstrations, or advertsising of some sort. Heck, you have a show. YOU KNOW THIS. You don't make people aware of the system by KILLING PEOPLE RANDOMLY
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If you are hispanic, you are are a damn illegal terrorist that took jobs away from honest hard working Americans that didn't want to do those jobs anyway, but dammit, they took them.
Dey tuk ir jerrrrrrbs! :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel) -
No, I do not concede the point. Maybe I am wrong, but I still believe that it is not terrorism. Because yes, it does instill fear into those involved, however, it will not last, and it was just ONE person, ONE time. In order for it to be terrorism, he has to instill fear. 9/11 lasted a while, and arguably goes on to this day. But that's it! Just once! The guy is gone! If a guy bombs a bank, is that terrorism? Does it instill fear? Yes. But it's over with in a matter of hours, though the damage lasts a while. The game's over! It's a crime, and it's one incident, it's over!
Let me point out something... Happened just 1 time[^] AT THE TIME they defined it as a terrorist act. Immediately. From 1995 to 2005, over 60 domestic terrorism plots were foiled due to preventive measures taken in response to the bombing. Note, domestic terrorist plots. Here is the accompanying article[^] So we have organized hate groups out there. A lot of them looking for justification to do something very bad. So, how many do you think this guy will inspire? You don't need to deliver the bomb if you can hop into a cesna filled with fuel and take care of business that way. The fact that you agree with his agenda and so are willing to not call a spade a spade is disturbing Joshua. I thought you were better than that.
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No he wasn't inciting people to violence. He wanted people to wake up and take their lives back. He was extreme with his measure, however he was just trying to make a statement. He wanted people to become aware of the system, not to incite to violence.
He wasn't inciting people to violence, he just wanted them to "wake up and take their lives back". He was "trying to make a statement". Do you even listen to yourself? Edit: Oh and funnily enough, even if you're right and his intention really was to inspire non-violent change, that would still make him a terrorist.
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Like I said, I do not condone what he did! I just fuckin understand it! What is it that you don't understand? I don't like what he did, and yes he should have protested instead! Absolutely! But I'm saying it's a CRIME! Not terrorism!
Because it is terrorism. It fits the bill. Read the response above about Oklahoma City. It can be 17 people, 2, or just 1. Doesn't matter. Killing people for a cause to become a martyr is asking for copycats. It's setting up and justifying it for others.
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Let me point out something... Happened just 1 time[^] AT THE TIME they defined it as a terrorist act. Immediately. From 1995 to 2005, over 60 domestic terrorism plots were foiled due to preventive measures taken in response to the bombing. Note, domestic terrorist plots. Here is the accompanying article[^] So we have organized hate groups out there. A lot of them looking for justification to do something very bad. So, how many do you think this guy will inspire? You don't need to deliver the bomb if you can hop into a cesna filled with fuel and take care of business that way. The fact that you agree with his agenda and so are willing to not call a spade a spade is disturbing Joshua. I thought you were better than that.
This does seem to clear it up. Sure. I just fear very much the thought that we are going to call, QUICKLY, a guy a terrorist. It took them four hours to call him a terrorist, and they didn't have all the information. I'm nervous for the country sir. I'll concede. Just know my fear.
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He wasn't inciting people to violence, he just wanted them to "wake up and take their lives back". He was "trying to make a statement". Do you even listen to yourself? Edit: Oh and funnily enough, even if you're right and his intention really was to inspire non-violent change, that would still make him a terrorist.
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Dey tuk ir jerrrrrrbs! :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)I have Team America stuck in my head. Thanks. Now I gotta find that DVD...