Grape flavour
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The reason there is too many people chasing dwindling resources is the liberal heart ringers who insist upon giving medicine and food to nations who traditionally have large families to compensate for infant mortality. Then instead of 1 in 5 children surviving, 4 in 5 do, thus they go on to breed. Either let nature take it's course or start sterilising them as a reward for aid. Stop trading with countries that do not have a population control in place. Stop all international aid. Do not pay social security simply because you had a child. If you have a child it is because you chose to have one, so why should the rest of us pay for it by money and reduced resources.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
Dalek Dave wrote:
If you have a child it is because you chose to have one, so why should the rest of us pay for it by money and reduced resources.
Well, I think this applies even more in the develped world. Walk around Disney World in Florida and keep track of how many American families have 5-6 kids. Or walk around Bridgewater, in Tasmania, and see how many kids a woman will have to different fathers when the system pays her more every time she gets knocked up.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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I'm reading a book called 'The End of Food'. It's broadly about how our system of food is at breaking point, and can't deal with the population growth we're experiencing. One interesting point - there's more demand for grape flavoured things today than it is possible to grow grapes to satisfy it. Artificial flavours are the only reason it's possible to taste grape as often as you'd like.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
There is plenty of food here in America. We grow our own food here, and grapes are abundant. You are reading garbage.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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There is plenty of food here in America. We grow our own food here, and grapes are abundant. You are reading garbage.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You are reading garbage.
Oh well, if you say so, it must be so. We are so lucky to have such a polymath on the forum, PhD psychologist, economist, climatologist, ... you name it - he's an expert. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Bob Emmett @ Ynys Thanatos
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I'm reading a book called 'The End of Food'. It's broadly about how our system of food is at breaking point, and can't deal with the population growth we're experiencing. One interesting point - there's more demand for grape flavoured things today than it is possible to grow grapes to satisfy it. Artificial flavours are the only reason it's possible to taste grape as often as you'd like.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
That's kind of interesting. Does he describe this as a recent development? I mean in European culture, anyway, wine has been a pretty important staple since... the Greeks, anyway, I suppose. So is he saying that there was historically a surplus? That seems unlikely. I'm not disputing the underlying premise (at least so far as I've gathered), but I'm not sure from what you've said that the excess in demand for grape products would be any greater now than before.
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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That's kind of interesting. Does he describe this as a recent development? I mean in European culture, anyway, wine has been a pretty important staple since... the Greeks, anyway, I suppose. So is he saying that there was historically a surplus? That seems unlikely. I'm not disputing the underlying premise (at least so far as I've gathered), but I'm not sure from what you've said that the excess in demand for grape products would be any greater now than before.
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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Historically, was there the demand for the grape flavouring of sweets, fizz, medicines, etc. that there now is? (That was merely rhetorical.)
Bob Emmett @ Ynys Thanatos
That's sort of what I got to wondering. If there has always been more demand than supply, I'd be willing to bet that there've been artificial replacements before, too. And if that's the case, then what's so novel about the situation the author describes?
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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That's sort of what I got to wondering. If there has always been more demand than supply, I'd be willing to bet that there've been artificial replacements before, too. And if that's the case, then what's so novel about the situation the author describes?
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
LunaticFringe wrote:
what's so novel about the situation the author describes?
Here is a review of The End of Food[^]. I haven't read it all, but there is a line Demand for grape flavor for sodas, gum, and candy "now exceeds the quantity of grape flavor produced naturally by a factor of ten.", which I found interesting, but not surprising. The remark is not made in the context of the breakdown in the food supply, rather in that of the "manufacturing" of food "products". (And it is something of an aside there.)
Bob Emmett @ Ynys Thanatos
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There is plenty of food here in America. We grow our own food here, and grapes are abundant. You are reading garbage.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
See, the real problem is that stupid people like you think that because there's food at walmart, there must be an infinite supply, everywhere. The US grows less and less of it's own food, and only grows it because farmers are heavily subsidised, otherwise they could not compete with imports. But, that's not really the problem. The demand causing food to be farmed in areas that are not well suited, thus both killing the soil and increasing risks of food borne disease, are more important issues. Keep your head in the sand. Keep ignorant. Stay a hypocrite ( this is a REAL issue, and mr 'educate yourself' refuses to see it, how ironic ).
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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I'm reading a book called 'The End of Food'. It's broadly about how our system of food is at breaking point, and can't deal with the population growth we're experiencing. One interesting point - there's more demand for grape flavoured things today than it is possible to grow grapes to satisfy it. Artificial flavours are the only reason it's possible to taste grape as often as you'd like.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
A vineyard across the road has just had planning consetned so it'll be torn up soon. Actuallly, wine grapes taste amazing. There is NO fruit as strong in flavour. Makes you realise why wine made from other stuff just isnt there.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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That's kind of interesting. Does he describe this as a recent development? I mean in European culture, anyway, wine has been a pretty important staple since... the Greeks, anyway, I suppose. So is he saying that there was historically a surplus? That seems unlikely. I'm not disputing the underlying premise (at least so far as I've gathered), but I'm not sure from what you've said that the excess in demand for grape products would be any greater now than before.
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
Fairly recent. The issue is one of population growth and rising standards of living in the third world. I would expect that wine is where the bulk of grapes end up, I doubt you can fake that. He's talking more about things like grape soda, and other grape flavoured stuff, which is a popular flavor in the US. My main point really was that CSS claims that the earth can support an infinite number of people, but the worldwide taste for grape, as a flavour, has exceeded our ability to grow them. ( I am picking grapes on my property right now, I wish I could find a non alcoholic way to preserve them, as right now, we have more than we can eat ).
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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LunaticFringe wrote:
what's so novel about the situation the author describes?
Here is a review of The End of Food[^]. I haven't read it all, but there is a line Demand for grape flavor for sodas, gum, and candy "now exceeds the quantity of grape flavor produced naturally by a factor of ten.", which I found interesting, but not surprising. The remark is not made in the context of the breakdown in the food supply, rather in that of the "manufacturing" of food "products". (And it is something of an aside there.)
Bob Emmett @ Ynys Thanatos
To be honest, I tried to discuss this once, and only Josh responded. So I chose a line I thought was interesting, not because it was a central premise, but because I hoped it might start some discussion. The core point is, our worldwide food system is running out of places to grow food, yields are not growing, they are falling in some places, and two features of the last century ( the defeat of diseases, and the defeat of hunger in the first world ) look like they were temporary, and unlikely to persist.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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A vineyard across the road has just had planning consetned so it'll be torn up soon. Actuallly, wine grapes taste amazing. There is NO fruit as strong in flavour. Makes you realise why wine made from other stuff just isnt there.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
I have about 7 grape vines, I've grown them all to be a lot bigger than a commercial grower would ( they grow them for mechanised picking ). I have no idea which are wine grapes and which are not, but everything we grow here ( all veggies, apples, apricots, blueberries, raspberries, boysenberries, passionfruit, plums, nashi fruit, pears, etc ), tastes better than anything you buy. The vegetables are especially good, and having seen commercial growth down the road, I think it's because we take much longer to harvest and don't push growth with chemicals. Slower growth means more flavour. I've been drying tomatoes and apples for winter all week. I tried to make sultanas, but they were not a huge success.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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See, the real problem is that stupid people like you think that because there's food at walmart, there must be an infinite supply, everywhere. The US grows less and less of it's own food, and only grows it because farmers are heavily subsidised, otherwise they could not compete with imports. But, that's not really the problem. The demand causing food to be farmed in areas that are not well suited, thus both killing the soil and increasing risks of food borne disease, are more important issues. Keep your head in the sand. Keep ignorant. Stay a hypocrite ( this is a REAL issue, and mr 'educate yourself' refuses to see it, how ironic ).
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Sounds like a bunch of made up bullshit designed to stoke your fantasies of depopulation and absolute tryanny.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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Sounds like a bunch of made up bullshit designed to stoke your fantasies of depopulation and absolute tryanny.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
Well, I see you're still arguing with a straw man. It's one thing for me to say that common sense tells you that we have finite arable land. I understand why you're too stupid to understand that. It's another thing entirely for someone to do the research and point out where the gaps in the system are, as this person has done. Growing population and shrinking arable land is a real problem. That you're incapable of doing the basic math, and live in a dreamland where the population burden the earth can support is infinite, says more about you than it does me. I'm reading a book, I am not claiming everything it says, is true. It's an interesting read, nonetheless, and a topic worth discussing amongst intelligent people. I am not surprised that you can't understand the most basic tenet of the book. A finite world cannot feed infinite people.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Well, I see you're still arguing with a straw man. It's one thing for me to say that common sense tells you that we have finite arable land. I understand why you're too stupid to understand that. It's another thing entirely for someone to do the research and point out where the gaps in the system are, as this person has done. Growing population and shrinking arable land is a real problem. That you're incapable of doing the basic math, and live in a dreamland where the population burden the earth can support is infinite, says more about you than it does me. I'm reading a book, I am not claiming everything it says, is true. It's an interesting read, nonetheless, and a topic worth discussing amongst intelligent people. I am not surprised that you can't understand the most basic tenet of the book. A finite world cannot feed infinite people.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Well, CSS is correct about the US specifically having plenty of food, just as you're correct about the heavy subsidies that ensure this. We're a net exporter of food. Of course, the GLOBAL food supply is the real issue, and yes, there's obviously a finite amount of arable land, and therefore a limit to the amount of food humanity can produce on this planet.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel) -
Well, CSS is correct about the US specifically having plenty of food, just as you're correct about the heavy subsidies that ensure this. We're a net exporter of food. Of course, the GLOBAL food supply is the real issue, and yes, there's obviously a finite amount of arable land, and therefore a limit to the amount of food humanity can produce on this planet.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)Ian Shlasko wrote:
Of course, the GLOBAL food supply is the real issue, and yes, there's obviously a finite amount of arable land, and therefore a limit to the amount of food humanity can produce on this planet.
Yes, this is the point that CSS does not accept.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
We're a net exporter of food.
I don't doubt that this may well still be true ( although I can find no online references ). I've driven through Illinois and Indiana, I've seen what gross planting of corn looks like.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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I have about 7 grape vines, I've grown them all to be a lot bigger than a commercial grower would ( they grow them for mechanised picking ). I have no idea which are wine grapes and which are not, but everything we grow here ( all veggies, apples, apricots, blueberries, raspberries, boysenberries, passionfruit, plums, nashi fruit, pears, etc ), tastes better than anything you buy. The vegetables are especially good, and having seen commercial growth down the road, I think it's because we take much longer to harvest and don't push growth with chemicals. Slower growth means more flavour. I've been drying tomatoes and apples for winter all week. I tried to make sultanas, but they were not a huge success.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
It is extraordinary how much beter ripe, organically (slowly) growm, fruit and veg tastes. We have excellent markets in the summer in Provence for this kind of stuff, peppers, artichokes, aubergines (egg plabt) and typical to the region and make some great dishes. That and fich is pretty much our summer diet. Its so damn hot anyway that you just cant eat meat anyway. You muct have a nice patch of land to be able to grow all that, and well established too. ALl we have in our garden is a wild plum tree, and its plums, though small, are delicious. We have a lot of pine tres though,. They to are indigenous and take up a lot of the garden but do provide a lot of shade. When the house is done I might look to converting part f the garden to growing produce.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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It is extraordinary how much beter ripe, organically (slowly) growm, fruit and veg tastes. We have excellent markets in the summer in Provence for this kind of stuff, peppers, artichokes, aubergines (egg plabt) and typical to the region and make some great dishes. That and fich is pretty much our summer diet. Its so damn hot anyway that you just cant eat meat anyway. You muct have a nice patch of land to be able to grow all that, and well established too. ALl we have in our garden is a wild plum tree, and its plums, though small, are delicious. We have a lot of pine tres though,. They to are indigenous and take up a lot of the garden but do provide a lot of shade. When the house is done I might look to converting part f the garden to growing produce.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
It is extraordinary how much beter ripe, organically (slowly) growm, fruit and veg tastes.
Yes, it is. I prefer to eat things when they are in season. I never buy tomatoes anymore. I oven dry them and have them for most of the year, but when I run out, I wait.
fat_boy wrote:
Its so damn hot anyway that you just cant eat meat anyway.
I guess it's an Aussie thing, we eat a ton of meat on the BBQ when it gets hot.
fat_boy wrote:
You muct have a nice patch of land to be able to grow all that, and well established too.
We have 11 acres, but we can't use half of it, it's zoned landscape protection. There was nothing when we moved here 5 years ago, I have a regular source of horse manure, and apart from that, my father in law and I planted all the trees, built the berry patch and chicken run, did the fencing, etc. It's very satisfying to see it come together, and to be feeding us and our extended family. Blueberries and raspberries are $5+ a punnet at times when I am giving them away because we can't use all that we have.
fat_boy wrote:
We have a lot of pine tres though,. They to are indigenous and take up a lot of the garden but do provide a lot of shade.
I am cutting down the last of our pines. There are not native here, and they suck all the moisture out of the ground. They are too close to the top veggie patch for comfort.
fat_boy wrote:
When the house is done I might look to converting part f the garden to growing produce.
I certainly recommend it. I could buy produce for far less than I invest, but the taste is not the same, and it's a good feeling to grow your own food.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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To be honest, I tried to discuss this once, and only Josh responded. So I chose a line I thought was interesting, not because it was a central premise, but because I hoped it might start some discussion. The core point is, our worldwide food system is running out of places to grow food, yields are not growing, they are falling in some places, and two features of the last century ( the defeat of diseases, and the defeat of hunger in the first world ) look like they were temporary, and unlikely to persist.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
We have moved from "The Population Bomb" to the the "Green Revolution" and back, but now with a bigger bomb. While Dalek Dave's Erlichian solution - starving those countries refusing to implement population control - would no doubt be acceptable to an avowed genocidal maniac like yourself ( :) ), I would prefer a more humane approach. It appears that entrenched attitudes to family size can be overcome, but it takes time. A couple of generations of relative affluence - with the concomitant low infant mortality and demise of disapproving traditionalist relatives - and Bob's your uncle. However, speed is of the essence. Impoverished third world women can be convinced that expensive infant formula is better for their children than breast feeding. That same successful propaganda machine must be adopted to convince those women of the joy of smaller, healthy, families: hire Nestlé's advertising agency - Now! (Free pill, people on the free pill, are the happiest people in the world. Sorry.)
Bob Emmett @ Ynys Thanatos
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Sounds like a bunch of made up bullshit designed to stoke your fantasies of depopulation and absolute tryanny.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]