Grape flavour
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LunaticFringe wrote:
what's so novel about the situation the author describes?
Here is a review of The End of Food[^]. I haven't read it all, but there is a line Demand for grape flavor for sodas, gum, and candy "now exceeds the quantity of grape flavor produced naturally by a factor of ten.", which I found interesting, but not surprising. The remark is not made in the context of the breakdown in the food supply, rather in that of the "manufacturing" of food "products". (And it is something of an aside there.)
Bob Emmett @ Ynys Thanatos
To be honest, I tried to discuss this once, and only Josh responded. So I chose a line I thought was interesting, not because it was a central premise, but because I hoped it might start some discussion. The core point is, our worldwide food system is running out of places to grow food, yields are not growing, they are falling in some places, and two features of the last century ( the defeat of diseases, and the defeat of hunger in the first world ) look like they were temporary, and unlikely to persist.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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A vineyard across the road has just had planning consetned so it'll be torn up soon. Actuallly, wine grapes taste amazing. There is NO fruit as strong in flavour. Makes you realise why wine made from other stuff just isnt there.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
I have about 7 grape vines, I've grown them all to be a lot bigger than a commercial grower would ( they grow them for mechanised picking ). I have no idea which are wine grapes and which are not, but everything we grow here ( all veggies, apples, apricots, blueberries, raspberries, boysenberries, passionfruit, plums, nashi fruit, pears, etc ), tastes better than anything you buy. The vegetables are especially good, and having seen commercial growth down the road, I think it's because we take much longer to harvest and don't push growth with chemicals. Slower growth means more flavour. I've been drying tomatoes and apples for winter all week. I tried to make sultanas, but they were not a huge success.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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See, the real problem is that stupid people like you think that because there's food at walmart, there must be an infinite supply, everywhere. The US grows less and less of it's own food, and only grows it because farmers are heavily subsidised, otherwise they could not compete with imports. But, that's not really the problem. The demand causing food to be farmed in areas that are not well suited, thus both killing the soil and increasing risks of food borne disease, are more important issues. Keep your head in the sand. Keep ignorant. Stay a hypocrite ( this is a REAL issue, and mr 'educate yourself' refuses to see it, how ironic ).
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Sounds like a bunch of made up bullshit designed to stoke your fantasies of depopulation and absolute tryanny.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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Sounds like a bunch of made up bullshit designed to stoke your fantasies of depopulation and absolute tryanny.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
Well, I see you're still arguing with a straw man. It's one thing for me to say that common sense tells you that we have finite arable land. I understand why you're too stupid to understand that. It's another thing entirely for someone to do the research and point out where the gaps in the system are, as this person has done. Growing population and shrinking arable land is a real problem. That you're incapable of doing the basic math, and live in a dreamland where the population burden the earth can support is infinite, says more about you than it does me. I'm reading a book, I am not claiming everything it says, is true. It's an interesting read, nonetheless, and a topic worth discussing amongst intelligent people. I am not surprised that you can't understand the most basic tenet of the book. A finite world cannot feed infinite people.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Well, I see you're still arguing with a straw man. It's one thing for me to say that common sense tells you that we have finite arable land. I understand why you're too stupid to understand that. It's another thing entirely for someone to do the research and point out where the gaps in the system are, as this person has done. Growing population and shrinking arable land is a real problem. That you're incapable of doing the basic math, and live in a dreamland where the population burden the earth can support is infinite, says more about you than it does me. I'm reading a book, I am not claiming everything it says, is true. It's an interesting read, nonetheless, and a topic worth discussing amongst intelligent people. I am not surprised that you can't understand the most basic tenet of the book. A finite world cannot feed infinite people.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Well, CSS is correct about the US specifically having plenty of food, just as you're correct about the heavy subsidies that ensure this. We're a net exporter of food. Of course, the GLOBAL food supply is the real issue, and yes, there's obviously a finite amount of arable land, and therefore a limit to the amount of food humanity can produce on this planet.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel) -
Well, CSS is correct about the US specifically having plenty of food, just as you're correct about the heavy subsidies that ensure this. We're a net exporter of food. Of course, the GLOBAL food supply is the real issue, and yes, there's obviously a finite amount of arable land, and therefore a limit to the amount of food humanity can produce on this planet.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)Ian Shlasko wrote:
Of course, the GLOBAL food supply is the real issue, and yes, there's obviously a finite amount of arable land, and therefore a limit to the amount of food humanity can produce on this planet.
Yes, this is the point that CSS does not accept.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
We're a net exporter of food.
I don't doubt that this may well still be true ( although I can find no online references ). I've driven through Illinois and Indiana, I've seen what gross planting of corn looks like.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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I have about 7 grape vines, I've grown them all to be a lot bigger than a commercial grower would ( they grow them for mechanised picking ). I have no idea which are wine grapes and which are not, but everything we grow here ( all veggies, apples, apricots, blueberries, raspberries, boysenberries, passionfruit, plums, nashi fruit, pears, etc ), tastes better than anything you buy. The vegetables are especially good, and having seen commercial growth down the road, I think it's because we take much longer to harvest and don't push growth with chemicals. Slower growth means more flavour. I've been drying tomatoes and apples for winter all week. I tried to make sultanas, but they were not a huge success.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
It is extraordinary how much beter ripe, organically (slowly) growm, fruit and veg tastes. We have excellent markets in the summer in Provence for this kind of stuff, peppers, artichokes, aubergines (egg plabt) and typical to the region and make some great dishes. That and fich is pretty much our summer diet. Its so damn hot anyway that you just cant eat meat anyway. You muct have a nice patch of land to be able to grow all that, and well established too. ALl we have in our garden is a wild plum tree, and its plums, though small, are delicious. We have a lot of pine tres though,. They to are indigenous and take up a lot of the garden but do provide a lot of shade. When the house is done I might look to converting part f the garden to growing produce.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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It is extraordinary how much beter ripe, organically (slowly) growm, fruit and veg tastes. We have excellent markets in the summer in Provence for this kind of stuff, peppers, artichokes, aubergines (egg plabt) and typical to the region and make some great dishes. That and fich is pretty much our summer diet. Its so damn hot anyway that you just cant eat meat anyway. You muct have a nice patch of land to be able to grow all that, and well established too. ALl we have in our garden is a wild plum tree, and its plums, though small, are delicious. We have a lot of pine tres though,. They to are indigenous and take up a lot of the garden but do provide a lot of shade. When the house is done I might look to converting part f the garden to growing produce.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
It is extraordinary how much beter ripe, organically (slowly) growm, fruit and veg tastes.
Yes, it is. I prefer to eat things when they are in season. I never buy tomatoes anymore. I oven dry them and have them for most of the year, but when I run out, I wait.
fat_boy wrote:
Its so damn hot anyway that you just cant eat meat anyway.
I guess it's an Aussie thing, we eat a ton of meat on the BBQ when it gets hot.
fat_boy wrote:
You muct have a nice patch of land to be able to grow all that, and well established too.
We have 11 acres, but we can't use half of it, it's zoned landscape protection. There was nothing when we moved here 5 years ago, I have a regular source of horse manure, and apart from that, my father in law and I planted all the trees, built the berry patch and chicken run, did the fencing, etc. It's very satisfying to see it come together, and to be feeding us and our extended family. Blueberries and raspberries are $5+ a punnet at times when I am giving them away because we can't use all that we have.
fat_boy wrote:
We have a lot of pine tres though,. They to are indigenous and take up a lot of the garden but do provide a lot of shade.
I am cutting down the last of our pines. There are not native here, and they suck all the moisture out of the ground. They are too close to the top veggie patch for comfort.
fat_boy wrote:
When the house is done I might look to converting part f the garden to growing produce.
I certainly recommend it. I could buy produce for far less than I invest, but the taste is not the same, and it's a good feeling to grow your own food.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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To be honest, I tried to discuss this once, and only Josh responded. So I chose a line I thought was interesting, not because it was a central premise, but because I hoped it might start some discussion. The core point is, our worldwide food system is running out of places to grow food, yields are not growing, they are falling in some places, and two features of the last century ( the defeat of diseases, and the defeat of hunger in the first world ) look like they were temporary, and unlikely to persist.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
We have moved from "The Population Bomb" to the the "Green Revolution" and back, but now with a bigger bomb. While Dalek Dave's Erlichian solution - starving those countries refusing to implement population control - would no doubt be acceptable to an avowed genocidal maniac like yourself ( :) ), I would prefer a more humane approach. It appears that entrenched attitudes to family size can be overcome, but it takes time. A couple of generations of relative affluence - with the concomitant low infant mortality and demise of disapproving traditionalist relatives - and Bob's your uncle. However, speed is of the essence. Impoverished third world women can be convinced that expensive infant formula is better for their children than breast feeding. That same successful propaganda machine must be adopted to convince those women of the joy of smaller, healthy, families: hire Nestlé's advertising agency - Now! (Free pill, people on the free pill, are the happiest people in the world. Sorry.)
Bob Emmett @ Ynys Thanatos
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Sounds like a bunch of made up bullshit designed to stoke your fantasies of depopulation and absolute tryanny.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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fat_boy wrote:
It is extraordinary how much beter ripe, organically (slowly) growm, fruit and veg tastes.
Yes, it is. I prefer to eat things when they are in season. I never buy tomatoes anymore. I oven dry them and have them for most of the year, but when I run out, I wait.
fat_boy wrote:
Its so damn hot anyway that you just cant eat meat anyway.
I guess it's an Aussie thing, we eat a ton of meat on the BBQ when it gets hot.
fat_boy wrote:
You muct have a nice patch of land to be able to grow all that, and well established too.
We have 11 acres, but we can't use half of it, it's zoned landscape protection. There was nothing when we moved here 5 years ago, I have a regular source of horse manure, and apart from that, my father in law and I planted all the trees, built the berry patch and chicken run, did the fencing, etc. It's very satisfying to see it come together, and to be feeding us and our extended family. Blueberries and raspberries are $5+ a punnet at times when I am giving them away because we can't use all that we have.
fat_boy wrote:
We have a lot of pine tres though,. They to are indigenous and take up a lot of the garden but do provide a lot of shade.
I am cutting down the last of our pines. There are not native here, and they suck all the moisture out of the ground. They are too close to the top veggie patch for comfort.
fat_boy wrote:
When the house is done I might look to converting part f the garden to growing produce.
I certainly recommend it. I could buy produce for far less than I invest, but the taste is not the same, and it's a good feeling to grow your own food.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
I guess it's an Aussie thing, we eat a ton of meat on the BBQ when it gets hot.
It must be. Perhaps a bit of grilled lamb, but fish tastes great in the heat and salads come to life!
Christian Graus wrote:
There was nothing when we moved here 5 years ago, I have a regular source of horse manure, and apart from that, my father in law and I planted all the trees, built the berry patch and chicken run, did the fencing, etc. It's very satisfying to see it come together
Lot of work, but its sounds idylic!
Christian Graus wrote:
I certainly recommend it. I could buy produce for far less than I invest
Eye, theres the rub. I once trie dto grow melons, the cavaion version, like a charante, very nice they are. After a lot of work I had 60 OK mellons. Not as sweet as tey should be, aparently the rythym of watering is important. I had to dig over the patch, de weed it, and cart gallons of water every day from a public fountain. (People here often use public fountains for their water supply, its a bit middle ages, but thats rural France!) Anyway, when they were ripe you could by 2 for a euro. SO I made 30 euros worth. About 40 minutes work as a programmer! I wont do that again, thats for sure, but peppers, aubergines, courgetes, which as vine crops should be easier to grow and look after.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Dalek Dave wrote:
If you have a child it is because you chose to have one, so why should the rest of us pay for it by money and reduced resources.
Well, I think this applies even more in the develped world. Walk around Disney World in Florida and keep track of how many American families have 5-6 kids. Or walk around Bridgewater, in Tasmania, and see how many kids a woman will have to different fathers when the system pays her more every time she gets knocked up.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
If these birds are lining up to get pregnant, just for the grants, I now have my first "places to visit in Tasmania" place to be.
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We have moved from "The Population Bomb" to the the "Green Revolution" and back, but now with a bigger bomb. While Dalek Dave's Erlichian solution - starving those countries refusing to implement population control - would no doubt be acceptable to an avowed genocidal maniac like yourself ( :) ), I would prefer a more humane approach. It appears that entrenched attitudes to family size can be overcome, but it takes time. A couple of generations of relative affluence - with the concomitant low infant mortality and demise of disapproving traditionalist relatives - and Bob's your uncle. However, speed is of the essence. Impoverished third world women can be convinced that expensive infant formula is better for their children than breast feeding. That same successful propaganda machine must be adopted to convince those women of the joy of smaller, healthy, families: hire Nestlé's advertising agency - Now! (Free pill, people on the free pill, are the happiest people in the world. Sorry.)
Bob Emmett @ Ynys Thanatos
Bob Emmett wrote:
It appears that entrenched attitudes to family size can be overcome, but it takes time. A couple of generations of relative affluence - with the concomitant low infant mortality and demise of disapproving traditionalist relatives - and Bob's your uncle Uncle Jake1's your Dad :laugh:.
1 Jacob Zuma, SA President, polygamist, and father of twenty at the last count. And the dude is nearly 70.
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Bob Emmett wrote:
It appears that entrenched attitudes to family size can be overcome, but it takes time. A couple of generations of relative affluence - with the concomitant low infant mortality and demise of disapproving traditionalist relatives - and Bob's your uncle Uncle Jake1's your Dad :laugh:.
1 Jacob Zuma, SA President, polygamist, and father of twenty at the last count. And the dude is nearly 70.
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To be honest, I tried to discuss this once, and only Josh responded. So I chose a line I thought was interesting, not because it was a central premise, but because I hoped it might start some discussion. The core point is, our worldwide food system is running out of places to grow food, yields are not growing, they are falling in some places, and two features of the last century ( the defeat of diseases, and the defeat of hunger in the first world ) look like they were temporary, and unlikely to persist.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
So what's to discuss? ;) I mean, yeah, there's a finite amount of arable land; and yeah, if people continue to breed like rabbits, eventually our consumption will outstrip our production. That whole concept of 'conquering' hunger, or disease... or a mountain, or a desert... always seems to run into some problem or other, doesn't it? We might prevail for a little while, but it never seems to last. It wouldn't be that we're just a little arrogant in our assumption that it's within our capacity to 'conquer' our environment, would it? It reminds me of the Edwardian mindset that led to, for instance, the belief in an 'unsinkable' Titanic. You know, if we do so pollute the earth to the point that human life becomes untenable, the earth will still remain. In all likelihood, life of some sort would still remain and would continue to evolve. We won't destroy the earth (as the panic mongers are so fond of saying), we'll just destroy ourselves.
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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Christian Graus wrote:
I guess it's an Aussie thing, we eat a ton of meat on the BBQ when it gets hot.
It must be. Perhaps a bit of grilled lamb, but fish tastes great in the heat and salads come to life!
Christian Graus wrote:
There was nothing when we moved here 5 years ago, I have a regular source of horse manure, and apart from that, my father in law and I planted all the trees, built the berry patch and chicken run, did the fencing, etc. It's very satisfying to see it come together
Lot of work, but its sounds idylic!
Christian Graus wrote:
I certainly recommend it. I could buy produce for far less than I invest
Eye, theres the rub. I once trie dto grow melons, the cavaion version, like a charante, very nice they are. After a lot of work I had 60 OK mellons. Not as sweet as tey should be, aparently the rythym of watering is important. I had to dig over the patch, de weed it, and cart gallons of water every day from a public fountain. (People here often use public fountains for their water supply, its a bit middle ages, but thats rural France!) Anyway, when they were ripe you could by 2 for a euro. SO I made 30 euros worth. About 40 minutes work as a programmer! I wont do that again, thats for sure, but peppers, aubergines, courgetes, which as vine crops should be easier to grow and look after.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
Perhaps a bit of grilled lamb, but fish tastes great in the heat and salads come to life!
Oh, we'd have salad with it, and cook some fish and lamb, but plenty of beef, too.
fat_boy wrote:
Anyway, when they were ripe you could by 2 for a euro. SO I made 30 euros worth. About 40 minutes work as a programmer!
Yes, the issue is, the stuff that gets ripe in your garden, does so just as the market is glutted. We never grow anything to sell. If we had to, we would value add, for example, sell onion jam instead of onions, boysenberry syrup instead of boysenberries, a fancy variant on raspberry jam ( just add some sort of alcohol to it ) instead of raspberries.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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If these birds are lining up to get pregnant, just for the grants, I now have my first "places to visit in Tasmania" place to be.
You've not seen them.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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So what's to discuss? ;) I mean, yeah, there's a finite amount of arable land; and yeah, if people continue to breed like rabbits, eventually our consumption will outstrip our production. That whole concept of 'conquering' hunger, or disease... or a mountain, or a desert... always seems to run into some problem or other, doesn't it? We might prevail for a little while, but it never seems to last. It wouldn't be that we're just a little arrogant in our assumption that it's within our capacity to 'conquer' our environment, would it? It reminds me of the Edwardian mindset that led to, for instance, the belief in an 'unsinkable' Titanic. You know, if we do so pollute the earth to the point that human life becomes untenable, the earth will still remain. In all likelihood, life of some sort would still remain and would continue to evolve. We won't destroy the earth (as the panic mongers are so fond of saying), we'll just destroy ourselves.
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
LunaticFringe wrote:
I mean, yeah, there's a finite amount of arable land;
According to CSS, this is a point of discussion.
LunaticFringe wrote:
We won't destroy the earth (as the panic mongers are so fond of saying), we'll just destroy ourselves.
Sure - the point is entirely to save ourselves, or at least have a discussion about trying to.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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LunaticFringe wrote:
I mean, yeah, there's a finite amount of arable land;
According to CSS, this is a point of discussion.
LunaticFringe wrote:
We won't destroy the earth (as the panic mongers are so fond of saying), we'll just destroy ourselves.
Sure - the point is entirely to save ourselves, or at least have a discussion about trying to.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.