Likely to be a slightly heated thread, hence the back room, about Vista and Win7.
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So, when I was out at Microsofts dev center in Hyderabad I saw BIG posters showing all the Indians who developed Vista. Chatting to a ex Microsoft employee, who now works for the firm I am currently contracting for, I learned that for Win7 Microsoft used all the old XP developers from the US. Now as we all know, to our cost and persponal pain, Vista was a disaster. Slow, unstable, buggy as hell, and so fundamentally bad no one wanted it. Dell and GAteway said to Microsoft that all the corporates were still asking for XP and so they had to keep on supporting it. As for Win7 as we all know it is fast and stable. OK the GUI sucks IMO< but thats a personal thing. And it REALLY sucks. If I could put the 2K GUI on it I would be happy. (Perhaps I can take the explorer.exe off 2K and give it a go...) So, and here is the point of this thread, given the state of some of Indias other Engineering products, Austin Ambassador cars and Enfield Bullet motorbikes, that are both currently made in India, and date from British designs in the 50s and 30s respectively, which havent been modernised at all, is India capable of good, inovative engineering? And, are all the companies offshoring dev work to India shooting themselves in the foot like Microsoft did? (BTW I also chatted to a guy form ST micro who was very derogatory about a SW product they had had developed in India) Of course leading on from this is a view I have about Europe. If you want the best engineering, with cutting edge design and performance, European engineering is the best. From Hifi kit to trains its the best in the world. The US is also good, as mentioned above, with the exception of styling, which I find absent in many of their products. What is your experience of engineered products from different regions of the world and have you come to a similar view as me?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
NY Times story this morning - Indian Students Wield Tests for College Spots[^]. 'Higher education presents a problem of quantity and quality. Even as India’s top students are world class, most Indian universities are not, with roughly two-thirds of colleges and universities rated below standard.' ... 'Domestic critics say the emphasis on standardized exams has overly focused Indian education on rote drilling and test-focused exercises.' And so you have a system pumping out tens of thousands of poorly educated graduates who think they're world-class software engineers. You don't need a crystal ball to see the impact this will have on software quality. Outsourcing is invariably an unmitigated disaster, and Vista is just one (albeit a prominent one) example.
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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NY Times story this morning - Indian Students Wield Tests for College Spots[^]. 'Higher education presents a problem of quantity and quality. Even as India’s top students are world class, most Indian universities are not, with roughly two-thirds of colleges and universities rated below standard.' ... 'Domestic critics say the emphasis on standardized exams has overly focused Indian education on rote drilling and test-focused exercises.' And so you have a system pumping out tens of thousands of poorly educated graduates who think they're world-class software engineers. You don't need a crystal ball to see the impact this will have on software quality. Outsourcing is invariably an unmitigated disaster, and Vista is just one (albeit a prominent one) example.
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
It's not just this, cheating (especially plagarism) is endemic in some parts of the world, and people tend to get to university on a "I can buy my way in" strategy. The latter point, leads to the attitude, I've payed my way in, now I expect to graduate. It would be a good academic study to try and work out how many forum posts are people just trying to get their coursework done.
Dalek Dave: There are many words that some find offensive, Homosexuality, Alcoholism, Religion, Visual Basic, Manchester United, Butter. Pete o'Hanlon: If it wasn't insulting tools, I'd say you were dumber than a bag of spanners.
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It's not just this, cheating (especially plagarism) is endemic in some parts of the world, and people tend to get to university on a "I can buy my way in" strategy. The latter point, leads to the attitude, I've payed my way in, now I expect to graduate. It would be a good academic study to try and work out how many forum posts are people just trying to get their coursework done.
Dalek Dave: There are many words that some find offensive, Homosexuality, Alcoholism, Religion, Visual Basic, Manchester United, Butter. Pete o'Hanlon: If it wasn't insulting tools, I'd say you were dumber than a bag of spanners.
Keith Barrow wrote:
It's not just this, cheating (especially plagarism) is endemic in some parts of the world, and people tend to get to university on a "I can buy my way in" strategy. The latter point, leads to the attitude, I've payed my way in, now I expect to graduate.
Oh, I know! What other explanation could there be for the prevalence of questions of the ilk (if I may paraphrase) - 'I'm a complete moron who is unable to grasp the simplest of programming concepts. I'm also unable to form a proper question. Plz post code to meet this obvious homework requirement. Will pay.' No interest in the subject; no aptitude for it, but every expectation that the system will support this bullshit, and I can only assume that they think it will continue to support this bullshit after they graduate. And who knows? Their software industry as a whole must indeed function in this manner, at least to some degree, or the belief in it wouldn't be so evident.
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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Keith Barrow wrote:
It's not just this, cheating (especially plagarism) is endemic in some parts of the world, and people tend to get to university on a "I can buy my way in" strategy. The latter point, leads to the attitude, I've payed my way in, now I expect to graduate.
Oh, I know! What other explanation could there be for the prevalence of questions of the ilk (if I may paraphrase) - 'I'm a complete moron who is unable to grasp the simplest of programming concepts. I'm also unable to form a proper question. Plz post code to meet this obvious homework requirement. Will pay.' No interest in the subject; no aptitude for it, but every expectation that the system will support this bullshit, and I can only assume that they think it will continue to support this bullshit after they graduate. And who knows? Their software industry as a whole must indeed function in this manner, at least to some degree, or the belief in it wouldn't be so evident.
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
LunaticFringe wrote:
Oh, I know! What other explanation could there be for the prevalence of questions of the ilk (if I may paraphrase) - 'I'm a complete moron who is unable to grasp the simplest of programming concepts. I'm also unable to form a proper question. Plz post code to meet this obvious homework requirement. Will pay.'
when did this happen! all ive seen want it for free
Smile and the world smiles withyou, laugh and they think you are a nutter
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LunaticFringe wrote:
Oh, I know! What other explanation could there be for the prevalence of questions of the ilk (if I may paraphrase) - 'I'm a complete moron who is unable to grasp the simplest of programming concepts. I'm also unable to form a proper question. Plz post code to meet this obvious homework requirement. Will pay.'
when did this happen! all ive seen want it for free
Smile and the world smiles withyou, laugh and they think you are a nutter
It happens; frequent the C++ or Java forums long enough and you'll see it. It's not as common as requests for free, but it happens. ('Prevalence' probably wasn't the best description to use. 'Frequency', perhaps.)
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
modified on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:20 PM
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Christian Graus wrote:
I don't think that an ability to be good or bad at anything is a racial characteristic
So why cant the Japanese style a car properly? They are all uniformly ugly pigs. Every single one. Just compare them to a Peugeot 306 for example, and I am intentionally taking a basic car, but the lines on it, the shape of it, is really very nicely thought out. Nissan Micra? A dogs dinner. But here is the thing. Evoloution. Why hasnt India, when given the design for a Bullet 350, evolved the design over the decades, and actually produced somehting like a modern motorbike? It has to be something cultural/social that stops them doing what to us is natural.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
you don't like Lexus? The LFA's a pretty sweet looking car.
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So, when I was out at Microsofts dev center in Hyderabad I saw BIG posters showing all the Indians who developed Vista. Chatting to a ex Microsoft employee, who now works for the firm I am currently contracting for, I learned that for Win7 Microsoft used all the old XP developers from the US. Now as we all know, to our cost and persponal pain, Vista was a disaster. Slow, unstable, buggy as hell, and so fundamentally bad no one wanted it. Dell and GAteway said to Microsoft that all the corporates were still asking for XP and so they had to keep on supporting it. As for Win7 as we all know it is fast and stable. OK the GUI sucks IMO< but thats a personal thing. And it REALLY sucks. If I could put the 2K GUI on it I would be happy. (Perhaps I can take the explorer.exe off 2K and give it a go...) So, and here is the point of this thread, given the state of some of Indias other Engineering products, Austin Ambassador cars and Enfield Bullet motorbikes, that are both currently made in India, and date from British designs in the 50s and 30s respectively, which havent been modernised at all, is India capable of good, inovative engineering? And, are all the companies offshoring dev work to India shooting themselves in the foot like Microsoft did? (BTW I also chatted to a guy form ST micro who was very derogatory about a SW product they had had developed in India) Of course leading on from this is a view I have about Europe. If you want the best engineering, with cutting edge design and performance, European engineering is the best. From Hifi kit to trains its the best in the world. The US is also good, as mentioned above, with the exception of styling, which I find absent in many of their products. What is your experience of engineered products from different regions of the world and have you come to a similar view as me?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
When I was working for an American company, I had access to India-developed code. It looked like code from someone who just got out of college. Poor error handling, bad styling, hard-coding. Recently, I developped a BizTalk application for a company and they are happy with it. But, for cost reasons, they outsourced further develpment to Egypt. Then I received an email from the Egyptian guy to help him install Visual Studio, because not only did he screw up the BizTalk dev environment, but he was unable to repair it. Those companies who want to save money by outsourcing do business with foreign companies who also want to save money by hiring junior devs. In short, you have what you pay for.
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When I was working for an American company, I had access to India-developed code. It looked like code from someone who just got out of college. Poor error handling, bad styling, hard-coding. Recently, I developped a BizTalk application for a company and they are happy with it. But, for cost reasons, they outsourced further develpment to Egypt. Then I received an email from the Egyptian guy to help him install Visual Studio, because not only did he screw up the BizTalk dev environment, but he was unable to repair it. Those companies who want to save money by outsourcing do business with foreign companies who also want to save money by hiring junior devs. In short, you have what you pay for.
It's worse. I've spoken to several 'interns' in India where being an intern means you're not paid, you get no training, you work on paid projects and you're expected to use CP and similar sites to get your work done.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
I don't think that an ability to be good or bad at anything is a racial characteristic
So why cant the Japanese style a car properly? They are all uniformly ugly pigs. Every single one. Just compare them to a Peugeot 306 for example, and I am intentionally taking a basic car, but the lines on it, the shape of it, is really very nicely thought out. Nissan Micra? A dogs dinner. But here is the thing. Evoloution. Why hasnt India, when given the design for a Bullet 350, evolved the design over the decades, and actually produced somehting like a modern motorbike? It has to be something cultural/social that stops them doing what to us is natural.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
So why cant the Japanese style a car properly? They are all uniformly ugly pigs. Every single one. Just compare them to a Peugeot 306 for example,
Regardless of looks the only people stupid enough to buy French cars are the French and the global "Wankers who are not French but crap on endlessly about France and everything that is French and sound like complete wankers when they attempt to speak French club". I suspect you're a founding member. You can pick them easily when you hear things like... "oh this blue pen reminds me of the blue cheese we had in *small french village on one has heard of*" "You have a sore foot? that reminds me of last year when we were skiing in France" "We should sell nuclear material to tin pot dictators like France does" "My Peugeot is at the mechanic again"
modified on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:06 PM
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fat_boy wrote:
So why cant the Japanese style a car properly? They are all uniformly ugly pigs. Every single one. Just compare them to a Peugeot 306 for example,
Regardless of looks the only people stupid enough to buy French cars are the French and the global "Wankers who are not French but crap on endlessly about France and everything that is French and sound like complete wankers when they attempt to speak French club". I suspect you're a founding member. You can pick them easily when you hear things like... "oh this blue pen reminds me of the blue cheese we had in *small french village on one has heard of*" "You have a sore foot? that reminds me of last year when we were skiing in France" "We should sell nuclear material to tin pot dictators like France does" "My Peugeot is at the mechanic again"
modified on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:06 PM
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So, when I was out at Microsofts dev center in Hyderabad I saw BIG posters showing all the Indians who developed Vista. Chatting to a ex Microsoft employee, who now works for the firm I am currently contracting for, I learned that for Win7 Microsoft used all the old XP developers from the US. Now as we all know, to our cost and persponal pain, Vista was a disaster. Slow, unstable, buggy as hell, and so fundamentally bad no one wanted it. Dell and GAteway said to Microsoft that all the corporates were still asking for XP and so they had to keep on supporting it. As for Win7 as we all know it is fast and stable. OK the GUI sucks IMO< but thats a personal thing. And it REALLY sucks. If I could put the 2K GUI on it I would be happy. (Perhaps I can take the explorer.exe off 2K and give it a go...) So, and here is the point of this thread, given the state of some of Indias other Engineering products, Austin Ambassador cars and Enfield Bullet motorbikes, that are both currently made in India, and date from British designs in the 50s and 30s respectively, which havent been modernised at all, is India capable of good, inovative engineering? And, are all the companies offshoring dev work to India shooting themselves in the foot like Microsoft did? (BTW I also chatted to a guy form ST micro who was very derogatory about a SW product they had had developed in India) Of course leading on from this is a view I have about Europe. If you want the best engineering, with cutting edge design and performance, European engineering is the best. From Hifi kit to trains its the best in the world. The US is also good, as mentioned above, with the exception of styling, which I find absent in many of their products. What is your experience of engineered products from different regions of the world and have you come to a similar view as me?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription