What do you think?
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There is a big difference between being anti-abortion and being anti-"Roe-V-Wade". I can fully appreciate that pregnancy constitutes a medical condition which is best left to the woman and her doctor. However, Roe-V-Wade was an arbitrary political decision made by an out of control federal judiciary trying to impose its will upon the entire country by a non-democratic process. I can never support that. I also think arbitrary definitions of what constitutes human life are dangerous. Can a fetus think like a full grown adult? No. Can a five year old? Again, no. But we don't go around killing five year olds. A civilization should be very cautious in the application of such arbitrary power. :rose: "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Stan Shannon wrote: Roe-V-Wade Sorry to be ignorant - please tell me what it is? I've heard of it, but never had an explanation :-O
I've always heard that there was an idea behind Win ME... I still can't figure out what that was... anyboy know??? I;ve herad the idea was that it was supposed to be n operating system but I doubt this. - Brian Delahunty
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I was having a conversation with Domenic about abortion. I was taking the "pro-life" viewpoint and saying that it's a small human being. Domenic was taking the opposing view and saying that until the first forty or so days, the "fetus" is incapable of human thought processes. So my question is: Which side do you take? Why? And how do you defend it? I'm not trying to offend anyone who has had an abortion. I just want to know what all of you think... Norm Almond: I seen some GUI's in my life but WTF is this mess ;-) Leppie: I made an app for my sister and she wouldnt use it till it was colorful enough:) Norm:good point leppie, from that statement I can only deduce that this GUI must be aimed at children:laugh: Leppie:My sister is 25:eek: -Norm on the MailMagic GUI
David Stone wrote: Which side do you take? Pro-choice. David Stone wrote: Why? And how do you defend it? Because a person who wants an abortion but is forced to have the baby is not going to make a good mother. For every "I am so glad I didn't have an abortion, I love my new baby and I am amazed but I am a great mother" case there are 5 "Shut up you brat, I never wnted you anyway! And get off that table, you are sitting on my coke stash" cases. The way I think about is that a baby can ruin a persons future. I knew a girl in school who was pretty smart and had a good chance of making something of her life. But she fell in love with a real jock. He had sex with her and she fell pregnant, he dumped her and now she is barely managing to survive as she could not finish school properly, could not go onto varsity and has to take any job she can while looking after a young kid. Now not only is her life badly affected but so is the childs. The child has no father, will grow up in poverty and generally is going to have a tough time of things. People make mistakes and while responsibility must be taken, ruining their life for falling in love and getting knocked up is just plain wrong. And don't come with the adoption line. There is something like a million AIDs orphans and hundres of thousands more unwanted kids languishing in sub-standard living conditions in government orphanages. Abortion is not something to be taken lightly and I do agree that repeat "offenders" should have the law come down on them. Abortion is not an enjoy-the-free-ride ticket, it is deadly serious. I guess bottom line for me is: If she has the abortion she has a chance of rectifying her mistake and contributing to society. If she does not have the abortion then she could very well just become a bigger burden to society an raise an unbalanced child. Neither is a win-win situation, but at least the former is a win-lose situation and not a lose-lose situation.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaRay Cassick wrote: Well I am not female, not gay and I am not Paul Watson
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David Stone wrote: Which side do you take? Pro-choice. David Stone wrote: Why? And how do you defend it? Because a person who wants an abortion but is forced to have the baby is not going to make a good mother. For every "I am so glad I didn't have an abortion, I love my new baby and I am amazed but I am a great mother" case there are 5 "Shut up you brat, I never wnted you anyway! And get off that table, you are sitting on my coke stash" cases. The way I think about is that a baby can ruin a persons future. I knew a girl in school who was pretty smart and had a good chance of making something of her life. But she fell in love with a real jock. He had sex with her and she fell pregnant, he dumped her and now she is barely managing to survive as she could not finish school properly, could not go onto varsity and has to take any job she can while looking after a young kid. Now not only is her life badly affected but so is the childs. The child has no father, will grow up in poverty and generally is going to have a tough time of things. People make mistakes and while responsibility must be taken, ruining their life for falling in love and getting knocked up is just plain wrong. And don't come with the adoption line. There is something like a million AIDs orphans and hundres of thousands more unwanted kids languishing in sub-standard living conditions in government orphanages. Abortion is not something to be taken lightly and I do agree that repeat "offenders" should have the law come down on them. Abortion is not an enjoy-the-free-ride ticket, it is deadly serious. I guess bottom line for me is: If she has the abortion she has a chance of rectifying her mistake and contributing to society. If she does not have the abortion then she could very well just become a bigger burden to society an raise an unbalanced child. Neither is a win-win situation, but at least the former is a win-lose situation and not a lose-lose situation.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaRay Cassick wrote: Well I am not female, not gay and I am not Paul Watson
Paul Watson wrote: Now not only is her life badly affected but so is the childs. The child has no father, will grow up in poverty and generally is going to have a tough time of things. It would be interesting to wait till he's about 14 years old, and then ask him if he would have preferred not to have lived. Sometimes it seems that we have evolved faster academically faster than we have socially. We are capable of ending lives, yet we are not capable of setting up decent support structures for people who make mistakes and find themselves in these desparate circumstances.
I've always heard that there was an idea behind Win ME... I still can't figure out what that was... anyboy know??? I;ve herad the idea was that it was supposed to be n operating system but I doubt this. - Brian Delahunty
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Stan Shannon wrote: Roe-V-Wade Sorry to be ignorant - please tell me what it is? I've heard of it, but never had an explanation :-O
I've always heard that there was an idea behind Win ME... I still can't figure out what that was... anyboy know??? I;ve herad the idea was that it was supposed to be n operating system but I doubt this. - Brian Delahunty
Roe Versus Wade The basic criticism of it is that the Court "made law". That is, they invented a law where none previously existed regarding abortion. As making law is supposed to be the power of the Legislative (democratically elected) branch of our government, many people, including myself, think it was a very bad direction to take the federal court system. The court's decision was made on purely political and personal, not constitutional or legal, grounds. The Left continues to make criticism of Roe-V-Wade sound like criticism of abortion itself. It's not. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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Paul Watson wrote: Now not only is her life badly affected but so is the childs. The child has no father, will grow up in poverty and generally is going to have a tough time of things. It would be interesting to wait till he's about 14 years old, and then ask him if he would have preferred not to have lived. Sometimes it seems that we have evolved faster academically faster than we have socially. We are capable of ending lives, yet we are not capable of setting up decent support structures for people who make mistakes and find themselves in these desparate circumstances.
I've always heard that there was an idea behind Win ME... I still can't figure out what that was... anyboy know??? I;ve herad the idea was that it was supposed to be n operating system but I doubt this. - Brian Delahunty
Megan Forbes wrote: yet we are not capable of setting up decent support structures for people who make mistakes and find themselves in these desparate circumstances And until we can setup a decent support structure we should not be bringing children into this world that will have to survive on the, well, indecent support structure. Also bringing in these children will mean people who normally would have been fine on their own will now also have to rely on the poor support structure.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaRay Cassick wrote: Well I am not female, not gay and I am not Paul Watson
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I was having a conversation with Domenic about abortion. I was taking the "pro-life" viewpoint and saying that it's a small human being. Domenic was taking the opposing view and saying that until the first forty or so days, the "fetus" is incapable of human thought processes. So my question is: Which side do you take? Why? And how do you defend it? I'm not trying to offend anyone who has had an abortion. I just want to know what all of you think... Norm Almond: I seen some GUI's in my life but WTF is this mess ;-) Leppie: I made an app for my sister and she wouldnt use it till it was colorful enough:) Norm:good point leppie, from that statement I can only deduce that this GUI must be aimed at children:laugh: Leppie:My sister is 25:eek: -Norm on the MailMagic GUI
David Stone wrote: Domenic was taking the opposing view and saying that until the first forty or so days, the "fetus" is incapable of human thought processes. For comments such as these I challange how it is messured. You just do not really know. I believe there are exceptions to everything (except my GOD but lets not go down that path.) Abortion is taking a life. Now is that justfied due to what ever the case may be? "We are what we repeatedly do. excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." Aristotle
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I was having a conversation with Domenic about abortion. I was taking the "pro-life" viewpoint and saying that it's a small human being. Domenic was taking the opposing view and saying that until the first forty or so days, the "fetus" is incapable of human thought processes. So my question is: Which side do you take? Why? And how do you defend it? I'm not trying to offend anyone who has had an abortion. I just want to know what all of you think... Norm Almond: I seen some GUI's in my life but WTF is this mess ;-) Leppie: I made an app for my sister and she wouldnt use it till it was colorful enough:) Norm:good point leppie, from that statement I can only deduce that this GUI must be aimed at children:laugh: Leppie:My sister is 25:eek: -Norm on the MailMagic GUI
David, did you post this just before going to bed? Where are you to debate our answers? :-D
I've always heard that there was an idea behind Win ME... I still can't figure out what that was... anyboy know??? I;ve herad the idea was that it was supposed to be n operating system but I doubt this. - Brian Delahunty
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Sorry, what? Maybe my brain still needs to wake up, not too sure what you are asking? :~
I've always heard that there was an idea behind Win ME... I still can't figure out what that was... anyboy know??? I;ve herad the idea was that it was supposed to be n operating system but I doubt this. - Brian Delahunty
He's saying that in order to have given the nine months back, they would have to had a partial-brith abortion...
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark
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I was having a conversation with Domenic about abortion. I was taking the "pro-life" viewpoint and saying that it's a small human being. Domenic was taking the opposing view and saying that until the first forty or so days, the "fetus" is incapable of human thought processes. So my question is: Which side do you take? Why? And how do you defend it? I'm not trying to offend anyone who has had an abortion. I just want to know what all of you think... Norm Almond: I seen some GUI's in my life but WTF is this mess ;-) Leppie: I made an app for my sister and she wouldnt use it till it was colorful enough:) Norm:good point leppie, from that statement I can only deduce that this GUI must be aimed at children:laugh: Leppie:My sister is 25:eek: -Norm on the MailMagic GUI
I have been through an abortion with an ex-girlfriend of mine. We were young, stupid, and made a decision that has until now been the single largest regret in my life. The first Father's Day after the abortion was the first day all the realization of the murder I paid for came up. I was devestated. I have since come to grips with it, but I can't help thinking about it when see my friends children, and it kills me. My life views have changed greatly since I made this decision. I now see the argument of "not capable of human thought until x weeks" as utter bullshit! So what, the capacity of what is being created is unimaginable!! What right do you have to kill off another human being? There is no justification for this. ever. I don't care if a child is conceived in rape or incest, it's not the childs fault. It should not be killed for the sins of the parents. If parents don't have the money to raise a child, are afraid they can't handle the responsibility, or maybe they don't love the other parent. None of this matters, you can give the child up for adoption. Or maybe society frowns on a woman pregnancy out of wedlock. Tough Shit! BW "I've been accused of vulgarity. I say that's bullshit." - Mel Brooks.
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He's saying that in order to have given the nine months back, they would have to had a partial-brith abortion...
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark
David Stone wrote: partial-brith abortion :wtf:
I've always heard that there was an idea behind Win ME... I still can't figure out what that was... anyboy know??? I;ve herad the idea was that it was supposed to be n operating system but I doubt this. - Brian Delahunty
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I have been through an abortion with an ex-girlfriend of mine. We were young, stupid, and made a decision that has until now been the single largest regret in my life. The first Father's Day after the abortion was the first day all the realization of the murder I paid for came up. I was devestated. I have since come to grips with it, but I can't help thinking about it when see my friends children, and it kills me. My life views have changed greatly since I made this decision. I now see the argument of "not capable of human thought until x weeks" as utter bullshit! So what, the capacity of what is being created is unimaginable!! What right do you have to kill off another human being? There is no justification for this. ever. I don't care if a child is conceived in rape or incest, it's not the childs fault. It should not be killed for the sins of the parents. If parents don't have the money to raise a child, are afraid they can't handle the responsibility, or maybe they don't love the other parent. None of this matters, you can give the child up for adoption. Or maybe society frowns on a woman pregnancy out of wedlock. Tough Shit! BW "I've been accused of vulgarity. I say that's bullshit." - Mel Brooks.
I agree with all you have said. However, don't let this ruin your life. It was a tragic mistake, fortunately if we learn from our mistakes we can make this a better world. I'm sorry for your loss, I guess it's too easy to think things are simple when we are young, and only realise later what the consequences were.
I've always heard that there was an idea behind Win ME... I still can't figure out what that was... anyboy know??? I;ve herad the idea was that it was supposed to be n operating system but I doubt this. - Brian Delahunty
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David Stone wrote: Which side do you take? Pro-choice. David Stone wrote: Why? And how do you defend it? Because a person who wants an abortion but is forced to have the baby is not going to make a good mother. For every "I am so glad I didn't have an abortion, I love my new baby and I am amazed but I am a great mother" case there are 5 "Shut up you brat, I never wnted you anyway! And get off that table, you are sitting on my coke stash" cases. The way I think about is that a baby can ruin a persons future. I knew a girl in school who was pretty smart and had a good chance of making something of her life. But she fell in love with a real jock. He had sex with her and she fell pregnant, he dumped her and now she is barely managing to survive as she could not finish school properly, could not go onto varsity and has to take any job she can while looking after a young kid. Now not only is her life badly affected but so is the childs. The child has no father, will grow up in poverty and generally is going to have a tough time of things. People make mistakes and while responsibility must be taken, ruining their life for falling in love and getting knocked up is just plain wrong. And don't come with the adoption line. There is something like a million AIDs orphans and hundres of thousands more unwanted kids languishing in sub-standard living conditions in government orphanages. Abortion is not something to be taken lightly and I do agree that repeat "offenders" should have the law come down on them. Abortion is not an enjoy-the-free-ride ticket, it is deadly serious. I guess bottom line for me is: If she has the abortion she has a chance of rectifying her mistake and contributing to society. If she does not have the abortion then she could very well just become a bigger burden to society an raise an unbalanced child. Neither is a win-win situation, but at least the former is a win-lose situation and not a lose-lose situation.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaRay Cassick wrote: Well I am not female, not gay and I am not Paul Watson
I really have to disagree here, Paul. My ex-girlfriend got pregnant. She was 18 and I was 23. We were completely broke, our relationship wasn't strong, primarily physical, and we both had dreams of a better life than we could provide for the child and ourselves. We decided on an abortion. It is the only decision I have made that I wish I could take back. Who knows what that child would have been like? How could play God and give some doctor $300 to suck that fetus up and throw it on the trash heap with the rest of them? I've since firmly preached to anyone in the situation who will listen, to make any other decision than murder. Life is amazing, and you can't predict the opportunies that might knock on your door to help you cope with a child. I know people get put into crappy situations, and some can't seem to raise above cardboard box, no matter what they try do to, but life isn't easy. Sorry. Some have it easy some have it rough, its just the way. This still doesn't give someone the right to kill. BW "I've been accused of vulgarity. I say that's bullshit." - Mel Brooks.
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I agree with all you have said. However, don't let this ruin your life. It was a tragic mistake, fortunately if we learn from our mistakes we can make this a better world. I'm sorry for your loss, I guess it's too easy to think things are simple when we are young, and only realise later what the consequences were.
I've always heard that there was an idea behind Win ME... I still can't figure out what that was... anyboy know??? I;ve herad the idea was that it was supposed to be n operating system but I doubt this. - Brian Delahunty
Megan Forbes wrote: don't let this ruin your life It hasn't. I've managed to take the lesson out of it, and cherish life that much more. Megan Forbes wrote: I guess it's too easy to think things are simple when we are young Absolutely. It's funny how you can look back at your thoughts from 5 years ago, and think "Man, what a clueless dolt I was" ;) BW "I've been accused of vulgarity. I say that's bullshit." - Mel Brooks.
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I really have to disagree here, Paul. My ex-girlfriend got pregnant. She was 18 and I was 23. We were completely broke, our relationship wasn't strong, primarily physical, and we both had dreams of a better life than we could provide for the child and ourselves. We decided on an abortion. It is the only decision I have made that I wish I could take back. Who knows what that child would have been like? How could play God and give some doctor $300 to suck that fetus up and throw it on the trash heap with the rest of them? I've since firmly preached to anyone in the situation who will listen, to make any other decision than murder. Life is amazing, and you can't predict the opportunies that might knock on your door to help you cope with a child. I know people get put into crappy situations, and some can't seem to raise above cardboard box, no matter what they try do to, but life isn't easy. Sorry. Some have it easy some have it rough, its just the way. This still doesn't give someone the right to kill. BW "I've been accused of vulgarity. I say that's bullshit." - Mel Brooks.
First off it is the woman's decision, nobody elses. I or you may think we have a say but ultimately we don't because we are not the ones with the hard responsibility, we can walk and many of us do. And I don't think every girl who gets into the situation your girlfriend was in has a boyfriend who would stick by them, even if just for fatherly and financial support. As you illustrate it is a tough decision, probably about the toughest I can think of. Also once you make it, whichever way, there will always be "what ifs." "What if we had the abortion? Would I not be in this hole, hardly surviving and providing such a terrible life for my child?" and the "What if we had not aborted? Would everything be wonderful and ok?" Nobody can answer those what ifs. Even with my pro-choice attitude I would feel immense regret if my girlfriend had an abortion. I would ask myself what ifs and things would never be 100%. But I think I would feel worse if I could not provide for my child. And that is a relatively good situation compared to what a lot of pregnant teenagers are faced with (that of having a man to support them at least a little bit.) Also to keep positive and survive a decision like that I would think that abort now, become self supporting and then have a child and provide it with the life you would want. Anyway, all of this is very, very personal and not something any law can really rule on IMO. It is different from case to case.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaRay Cassick wrote: Well I am not female, not gay and I am not Paul Watson
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I have been through an abortion with an ex-girlfriend of mine. We were young, stupid, and made a decision that has until now been the single largest regret in my life. The first Father's Day after the abortion was the first day all the realization of the murder I paid for came up. I was devestated. I have since come to grips with it, but I can't help thinking about it when see my friends children, and it kills me. My life views have changed greatly since I made this decision. I now see the argument of "not capable of human thought until x weeks" as utter bullshit! So what, the capacity of what is being created is unimaginable!! What right do you have to kill off another human being? There is no justification for this. ever. I don't care if a child is conceived in rape or incest, it's not the childs fault. It should not be killed for the sins of the parents. If parents don't have the money to raise a child, are afraid they can't handle the responsibility, or maybe they don't love the other parent. None of this matters, you can give the child up for adoption. Or maybe society frowns on a woman pregnancy out of wedlock. Tough Shit! BW "I've been accused of vulgarity. I say that's bullshit." - Mel Brooks.
brianwelsch wrote: you can give the child up for adoption Adoption is not always as peachy as in America or other first world countries.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaRay Cassick wrote: Well I am not female, not gay and I am not Paul Watson
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First off it is the woman's decision, nobody elses. I or you may think we have a say but ultimately we don't because we are not the ones with the hard responsibility, we can walk and many of us do. And I don't think every girl who gets into the situation your girlfriend was in has a boyfriend who would stick by them, even if just for fatherly and financial support. As you illustrate it is a tough decision, probably about the toughest I can think of. Also once you make it, whichever way, there will always be "what ifs." "What if we had the abortion? Would I not be in this hole, hardly surviving and providing such a terrible life for my child?" and the "What if we had not aborted? Would everything be wonderful and ok?" Nobody can answer those what ifs. Even with my pro-choice attitude I would feel immense regret if my girlfriend had an abortion. I would ask myself what ifs and things would never be 100%. But I think I would feel worse if I could not provide for my child. And that is a relatively good situation compared to what a lot of pregnant teenagers are faced with (that of having a man to support them at least a little bit.) Also to keep positive and survive a decision like that I would think that abort now, become self supporting and then have a child and provide it with the life you would want. Anyway, all of this is very, very personal and not something any law can really rule on IMO. It is different from case to case.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaRay Cassick wrote: Well I am not female, not gay and I am not Paul Watson
My whole problem with abortion is really that noone has the right to take that life. Period. Just because it was legel for me to do so, doesn't change anything. The law contradicts itself. I agree, that people do make mistakes, but they should then live with their mistakes. Maybe if people didn't have the decision to make, and therefore were forced to contend with the baby, they would take a bit more care in not getting pregnant in the first place. Anyway, it's apparent we have strongly opposed views here. :cool: BW "I've been accused of vulgarity. I say that's bullshit." - Mel Brooks.
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My whole problem with abortion is really that noone has the right to take that life. Period. Just because it was legel for me to do so, doesn't change anything. The law contradicts itself. I agree, that people do make mistakes, but they should then live with their mistakes. Maybe if people didn't have the decision to make, and therefore were forced to contend with the baby, they would take a bit more care in not getting pregnant in the first place. Anyway, it's apparent we have strongly opposed views here. :cool: BW "I've been accused of vulgarity. I say that's bullshit." - Mel Brooks.
brianwelsch wrote: Maybe if people didn't have the decision to make, and therefore were forced to contend with the baby, they would take a bit more care in not getting pregnant in the first place Very true. It is a shame that the subject is not faced with more gravity, instead of being seen as a frivolous route to a good time.
I've always heard that there was an idea behind Win ME... I still can't figure out what that was... anyboy know??? I;ve herad the idea was that it was supposed to be n operating system but I doubt this. - Brian Delahunty
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Megan Forbes wrote: the harsh side of me says that people should take responsibility for their actions Yes, in most cases, I agree. But what if the woman has been raped and got pregnant ? In this situation, she didn't ask for anything, her life is devastated and I guess in this situation, having to take care of a baby she didn't want is even worse. Jerome
Should could always turn the baby over for adoption. She doesn't have to take care of it. Jason Gerard "This almost never matters, except quite often."
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Roe Versus Wade The basic criticism of it is that the Court "made law". That is, they invented a law where none previously existed regarding abortion. As making law is supposed to be the power of the Legislative (democratically elected) branch of our government, many people, including myself, think it was a very bad direction to take the federal court system. The court's decision was made on purely political and personal, not constitutional or legal, grounds. The Left continues to make criticism of Roe-V-Wade sound like criticism of abortion itself. It's not. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Okay, I'm going to let my ignorance shine through here. I'm not particularily interested in the topic of the post that started this thread but I would like to ask you: Isn't the decision rendered in "Roe vs. Wade" (or any other decision rendered by that body) an extension of the duly elected (that is democratically elected) persons that appointed them? I mean, when an offical is elected, and has the power to appoint, isn't that person elected based on the idea that his/her appointments are going to be consistant with the very basis for which they were voted in on to begin with? I have always been under the impression the purpose of the supreme court is to do thier best to interperet the 'meaning' of the laws established by local, state, federal bodies with respect to the constitution. In light of that I have been under the assumtion (there I go again assuming things) that what I was taught about the constition, skipping all the legalese is that its to protect the rights of the individual (providing that the individual in question is not threating the great whole) - hence 'e pluribis unum' (many out of one). I'm not looking to engage in a political debate or anything even close but I was just wondering what your thoughts would be on the idea that the judical body you refered to as not being democratically elected is, in my understanding, elected in that those serving are an extension of those elected into other offices by the people. --------------------------------------------- Be good! But if you can't be good, at least be good at it and try not to get any on ya! -mjf
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Megan Forbes wrote: the harsh side of me says that people should take responsibility for their actions Yes, in most cases, I agree. But what if the woman has been raped and got pregnant ? In this situation, she didn't ask for anything, her life is devastated and I guess in this situation, having to take care of a baby she didn't want is even worse. Jerome
Jerome Conus wrote: she didn't ask for anything, her life is devastated The baby certainly didn't do anything wrong either. Mom's life may be harder, but at least she won't be dead out of convenience. Jerome Conus wrote: having to take care of a baby she didn't want is even worse. <plays violins>:(( Ooops. I mean TOO BAD! Sometimes life sucks! :mad: BW "I've been accused of vulgarity. I say that's bullshit." - Mel Brooks.