No System of Government Works (by itself)
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You have a lot to learn about economics, and how things truly work. You can start with Milton Freedman's debate. America's freedom and prosperity derive from the combination of the idea of human liberty in America's Declaration of Independence with the idea of economic freedom in Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. Friedman explains how markets and voluntary exchange organize activity and enable people to improve their lives. He also explains the price system. Friedman visits Hong Kong, U.S. and Scotland.[^] You can follow the related video links to find volumes 2 through 10.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You have a lot to learn about economics,
Since you did not respond to my previous reply thought I'd let you know something. I studied economics for eight years (two degrees) and lectured in economics for six years. This does not mean I know everything about the subject but I guess I know more than the average Joe. I also guess I know considerably more than you do.
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You have a lot to learn about economics,
Since you did not respond to my previous reply thought I'd let you know something. I studied economics for eight years (two degrees) and lectured in economics for six years. This does not mean I know everything about the subject but I guess I know more than the average Joe. I also guess I know considerably more than you do.
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
See, now you scared him away. This is CSS 101... He only has four possible responses, kind of like a state machine. 1) Arguing Mode
A) Quotes a bunch of Alex Jones and Ron Paul rhetoric, not actually understanding a single word of it. B) Posts links to YouTube videos that sometimes illustrate his point, and sometimes do exactly the opposite (He doesn't understand them, so he can't tell the difference). 2) Failure Mode (This is when he realizes he's outgunned) A) Random insults, ranging from adolescent name-calling to generic "You don't know what you're talking about"-style comebacks. B) Silence. When he's proven wrong, he'll usually just run away and hide. I've never seen him actually admit a mistake.Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, for the most part, but I think it should be clear by now that NONE of the discussed systems work by themselves... Take any one of them to its logical conclusion, and what do you get? Communism
Ideal: Everyone is equal, so there are no rich and no poor, no powerful and no weak. (Including those elected to lead) Reality: This goes against natural human greed. Inevitably, those in charge turn it into a communist dictatorship (See: USSR). End Result: Authoritarian regime by the chosen rulers Socialism
Ideal: The state controls everything and takes good care of the populace Reality: The state controls everything and screws the populace. End Result: Authoritarian regime by the chosen rulers Capitalism
Ideal: Unregulated market without government interference. Innovation is rewarded, laziness is punished Reality: Wealth becomes concentrated in the hands of the rich, the poor are reduced largely to slave labor. End Result: Authoritarian regime by whichever companies grow largest So what's the solution... Put them together... Take the best parts of each and find some way to make them complement each other. Basically, what we have now, but with the scales adjusted a bit. How much to adjust them, well, that's where the different political viewpoints come in.Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Yes, I am astounded at how many people can see some of these systems as pure evil, and others as pure good. It's plain to me that no extreme system will work, a balanced approach is needed. We have the balance wrong right now, but neither pure socialism or pure capitalism will solve the issue.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Capitalism Ideal: Unregulated market without government interference. Innovation is rewarded, laziness is punished Reality: Wealth becomes concentrated in the hands of the rich, the poor are reduced largely to slave labor. End Result: Authoritarian regime by whichever companies grow largest
You are thinking of corporatism. Where the corporations lobby government to pass legislation and regulation that favors certain corporations in the name of "fair trade" and all that. No-bid contracts, federal reserve lending, corporate welfare (bailouts). What system of government works is a Constitutional Republic based on the principles of liberty and free-markets. When the Constitution is enforced correctly; and people are keen on what their government is doing at all times, the system works.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
What system of government works is a Constitutional Republic based on the principles of liberty and free-markets. When the Constitution is enforced correctly; and people are keen on what their government is doing at all times, the system works.
While this is plainly not true, the other question is, how would you know ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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James L. Thomson wrote:
but nowhere in the constitution is your property protected from private citizens or businesses
The Constitution doesn't give people rights. It lays out the framework for a system of government to protect people's inherent God given rights. The constitution isn't something that lays out all of the laws that exist into a small document. It is a framework. You are born with rights, privileges are given to you by authority. The constitution exist as the architecture of the government.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You are born with rights, privileges are given to you by authority
What rights do you think you are born with, and how do they exist when government does nothing to help you protect them ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You have a lot to learn about economics,
Since you did not respond to my previous reply thought I'd let you know something. I studied economics for eight years (two degrees) and lectured in economics for six years. This does not mean I know everything about the subject but I guess I know more than the average Joe. I also guess I know considerably more than you do.
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
riced wrote:
I studied economics for eight years (two degrees) and lectured in economics for six years.
Keynesian economic theory no doubt. Ben Bernake knows a bit about that, and look at the economy now.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
With unregulated markets, minimum wage removed, and no labor regulation, companies can make their own rules. If you take the government out of the picture, nothing stops companies from exploiting workers any way they see fit.
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize. Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value. If however the government interviens, that causes imbalances, and some people are going to get screwed without choice because of the way the law fucks them over. Why is it that the more authoritarian and corrupt a government is, the less people get paid in their economy? Freedom brings prosperity, not government control and regulation. The only thing government is responsible for are courts, police, highways and roads, and military. If you negotiate a contract with a company to do this and that for X amount of money, the government has no business nullifying the contract because a law that says X has to be greater than Y. That is not freedom, that is authoritarian.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize.
Only in the sense that the rich will think things are fine, and the poor won't matter. Your theories worked in the 19th century, but in a world where you can get goods cheaply made in china, and then exploit local workers to keep the cost of selling them down, the only way to normalise, is for your standard of living to drop to the same as it is for workers in China. In a closed system, people need goods, so they need to pay local people enough to make them. That does not happen anymore.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The only thing government is responsible for are courts, police, highways and roads, and military.
So long as government does not provide schools, this will work, b/c the poor will be too stupid to know they are being screwed.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
If you negotiate a contract with a company to do this and that for X amount of money, the government has no business nullifying the contract because a law that says X has to be greater than Y. That is not freedom, that is authoritarian.
And it's a minority of workers who are specialised enough to be able to enter such a negotiation and have any power at all.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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riced wrote:
I studied economics for eight years (two degrees) and lectured in economics for six years.
Keynesian economic theory no doubt. Ben Bernake knows a bit about that, and look at the economy now.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
Whatever he learned, he has two degrees. How many do you have ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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You have a lot to learn about economics, and how things truly work. You can start with Milton Freedman's debate. America's freedom and prosperity derive from the combination of the idea of human liberty in America's Declaration of Independence with the idea of economic freedom in Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. Friedman explains how markets and voluntary exchange organize activity and enable people to improve their lives. He also explains the price system. Friedman visits Hong Kong, U.S. and Scotland.[^] You can follow the related video links to find volumes 2 through 10.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
How can someone who can't get a job and has no money lecture us on economics ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Simon_Whale wrote:
Inflation affects the price of goods, the price of goods get higher with inflation (which is controlled by demand!). without having some form of wage / employement regulations you risk people not being able to afford the basic's of life!
So do alot of other things. Inflation not only pushes the price of goods and service up, but it also pushes wages up. Regardless of the cause of the inflation, prices and wages rise naturally without laws forcing them to. On the other hand their is deflation, why should people have to wait for the government to lower minimum wage so that they may find a job in a deflationary economy? That is not freedom, that is USSR style authoritarianism. However inflation is almost always caused by money printing, which is a hidden tax by the government or the central bank that is trying to "manage", "rig", or centrally plan the economy.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
On the other hand their is deflation, why should people have to wait for the government to lower minimum wage so that they may find a job in a deflationary economy? That is not freedom, that is USSR style authoritarianism.
Are you claiming that it's possible to live such a life of luxury on the US minimum wage that it should be lowered to create jobs ? You are insane.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize.
Only in the sense that the rich will think things are fine, and the poor won't matter. Your theories worked in the 19th century, but in a world where you can get goods cheaply made in china, and then exploit local workers to keep the cost of selling them down, the only way to normalise, is for your standard of living to drop to the same as it is for workers in China. In a closed system, people need goods, so they need to pay local people enough to make them. That does not happen anymore.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The only thing government is responsible for are courts, police, highways and roads, and military.
So long as government does not provide schools, this will work, b/c the poor will be too stupid to know they are being screwed.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
If you negotiate a contract with a company to do this and that for X amount of money, the government has no business nullifying the contract because a law that says X has to be greater than Y. That is not freedom, that is authoritarian.
And it's a minority of workers who are specialised enough to be able to enter such a negotiation and have any power at all.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
s for your standard of living to drop to the same as it is for workers in China
There would be deflationary depression, but china wouldn't be as competitive then, and their quality and standard of living would also drop, which would cause a collapse of red china. However after the deflationary period is over, money would be worth quite a bit more, so our standard of living would only take a temporary hit as spending decreases, and then when prices become low enough, money starts flowing and the economy would be booming, without china (unless they changed their economic model).
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Whatever he learned, he has two degrees. How many do you have ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
People who have degrees are the stupidest of them all. You have to unlearn everything after you enter the real world.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Christian Graus wrote:
s for your standard of living to drop to the same as it is for workers in China
There would be deflationary depression, but china wouldn't be as competitive then, and their quality and standard of living would also drop, which would cause a collapse of red china. However after the deflationary period is over, money would be worth quite a bit more, so our standard of living would only take a temporary hit as spending decreases, and then when prices become low enough, money starts flowing and the economy would be booming, without china (unless they changed their economic model).
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
Wow - it seems like you're quite the expert. The trouble is, it is unlikey it would pan out this way in the real world. China OWNS the US, they have tons of your debt. They would not just roll over and play dead because you asked them to.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Wow - it seems like you're quite the expert. The trouble is, it is unlikey it would pan out this way in the real world. China OWNS the US, they have tons of your debt. They would not just roll over and play dead because you asked them to.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
We will force them to, and their slaves will rebel and they will collapse. If they don't like it, then they can die.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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People who have degrees are the stupidest of them all. You have to unlearn everything after you enter the real world.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
Yeah, a lot of uneducated people tell themselves that. Having a degree does not guarentee real world smarts. NOT having one just proves you have no discipline and stand a chance of knowing less than nothing about your chosen topic.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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We will force them to, and their slaves will rebel and they will collapse. If they don't like it, then they can die.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
We will force them to, and their slaves will rebel and they will collapse. If they don't like it, then they can die.
Ah, so it's not about a free market at all, it's about conquest and empire. Freedom for us, death for others. Lovely.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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James L. Thomson wrote:
but nowhere in the constitution is your property protected from private citizens or businesses
The Constitution doesn't give people rights. It lays out the framework for a system of government to protect people's inherent God given rights. The constitution isn't something that lays out all of the laws that exist into a small document. It is a framework. You are born with rights, privileges are given to you by authority. The constitution exist as the architecture of the government.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The Constitution doesn't give people rights. It lays out the framework for a system of government to protect people's inherent God given rights.
Oh this is rich. The constitution was created to be a system to allow a central government to rule. That was it. The problem was it never would have been ratified as it was. Demands were made and the Bill of Rights was tacked on. This was made specifically to constrain the government on how it dealt with individuals. The constitution would have happily ignored those rights had the states not demanded those rights put in. And it only says what the Federal Government can and can't do. As was shown when the Supreme Court said imminent domain is fine to hand private property to another private investor. States can do whatever their own constitutions allow as long as it doesn't go against a stated constitutional provision. As for the BP thing, the property rights of the fishermen hosed by the spill would mean nothing. They didn't have property hurt. Their income being destroyed was not property being damaged... So it's okay for them to be bankrupt thanks to an oil company, right?
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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We will force them to, and their slaves will rebel and they will collapse. If they don't like it, then they can die.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
We will force them to, and their slaves will rebel and they will collapse. If they don't like it, then they can die.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
We will force them to, and their slaves will rebel and they will collapse. If they don't like it, then they can die.
Ah, so it's not about a free market at all, it's about conquest and empire. Freedom for us, death for others. Lovely.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
I'd like to see the US force China to do anything. Before moron...er..W, we might have had a chance. But now, no way. Our armed forces are stretched too thin, our military complex is worn out and our troops are tired and while now very combat trained, would be fighting a different kind of war against an army numbering in the millions if necessary. If we even tried conventional war. Which would be smart since they could nuke us as easily as the USSR used to be able to. The US doesn't have the economic might to bury China like it did the USSR. So that's out. Yea, we got jack here...
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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Again I say... Upon seizing power I promise to be a benevolent dictator. Thrakazogism Ideal: Unregulated market without government interference. Innovation is rewarded,laziness is punished by 24 hour reality show involving tazers. Reality: Revenue from the show tazing the lazy will be used to feed/educate them. End Result: Entertainment, World peace.
I find your words intriguing and wish to subscribe to your publications.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.