Time for a dose of truth for once around here
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Christian Graus wrote:
You don't get it. Stupid people, are stupid. They have no ability to build skills.
Who are you to know who has skills and who doesn't? That's a very arrogant mentality, therefore I could be the one to call you stupid. You don't know one person's abilities to the other. You also don't have the moral right to tell someone they're stupid. There's different kinds of education and experience, and that's why there are tons of sectors of the economy.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, they think about the short term promises being made..
And not long term. Agreed. And that's the problem with the central banks, mind you. They think about short term, therefore setting interest rates articificially. Then 2 years down the line, BUST!
Christian Graus wrote:
Money is only a promise of value, that is true.
That's a true statement, to be sure. But why would gold be less valuable (or more) than paper? I think you just proved the point actually, when you say
Christian Graus wrote:
It does need to be backed up with something real, to at least some degree, just like a bank needs enough liquid funds to be able to protect itself from a run on it
They're one in the same. That's my opinion at least.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.josda1000 wrote:
Who are you to know who has skills and who doesn't? That's a very arrogant mentality, therefore I could be the one to call you stupid.
Someone who is smart enough to do something else, and chooses to work at walmart their whole life, is not very smart.
josda1000 wrote:
You don't know one person's abilities to the other. You also don't have the moral right to tell someone they're stupid. There's different kinds of education and experience, and that's why there are tons of sectors of the economy.
Sure. I mean, I can't rebuild a car, or any one of 1000 other worthwhile manual jobs. I started talking about stupid people only to point out that some people ARE lacking in any sort of skill, and THEY are the sort of people who need the protection of things like minimum wage laws. My point was never to look down on anyone, just to say that someone who works hard, but has no real skills, is still a human being who deserves some protection from the society that relies on their labour.
josda1000 wrote:
And that's the problem with the central banks, mind you. They think about short term, therefore setting interest rates articificially. Then 2 years down the line, BUST!
That's your assumption. But the fact remains, low rates give poor people more access to credit, and it does not always end badly.
josda1000 wrote:
But why would gold be less valuable (or more) than paper?
Because we agree that it is. The same paper, the same raw material, can be worth $100 or $1. So, the only reason that is true, is because we agree that it is.
josda1000 wrote:
They're one in the same. That's my opinion at least.
I'm not sure I understood this. Gold needs to back up money just like a bank needs to not have runs made on it ? The value of money is not just set by what you say it is, internationally, how much you print changes how much it is worth. The USD has been in the toilet for a while but seems to be recovering.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Of course I get an inspection. When people build houses that fall down in the next hurricane, for example, how is that a good thing for society, or an advantage of free markets ?
That's going to happen, and it should not be regulated honestly. You can't get everything perfect... and the business that created that house (architect, engineers, whoever) will go out of business if people make enough of a stir. (You'll say it's oversimplification, I think it's the truth if the free market capitalism were to work the way it's supposed to.)
Christian Graus wrote:
People who borrow money they cannot pay back, are stupid.
Truth.
Christian Graus wrote:
So, the controls are corrupted and that proves that having control is bad ? Or does it prove that collusion ( which is done in self interest, i.e. capitalism ) is bad ?
Yes. If the controls are corrupted, what's the point in having them? If you don't know if something is working or not, it's not enough to try to replace it with the same garbage. Also, it does not prove that collusion is bad... it proves that collusion with the GOVERNMENT is bad, because they are the real monopoly. Collusion with other companies to make a good product can only be good for the consumer, who has the real choice and final say in whether the company continues to exist or not, not just the government.
Christian Graus wrote:
Are you claiming they seek to cause the bubbles ? Bubbles are caused by stupid people. Cheap money just gives them a chance to be stupid. You're, in essence, suggesting another form of regulation, keeping rates high to lock poor people permanently so they have no access to credit.
I'm not claiming they seek to cause bubbles. They could be, but that's not the argument. They do cause bubbles though, and that's the argument. Yes, bubbles are caused by stupid people. Governments are always stupid. Actually, more precisely, large groups of people are always stupid. AKA corporations and governments. I am also NOT suggesting locking interest rates at high levels. I've said time and again, we do not need a central bank, therefore not having interest rates dictated by the state.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.
<josda1000 wrote:
Yes. If the controls are corrupted, what's the point in having them? If you don't know if something is working or not, it's not enough to try to replace it with the same garbage.
So, if your car is broken, you should not buy another one ? If your marriage fails, you should never remarry ? If you buy an apple and it's rotten, you should never buy another apple ? If your president is proven to be a liar, you should overthrow your political system and replace it with anarchy ?
josda1000 wrote:
Collusion with other companies to make a good product can only be good for the consumer, who has the real choice and final say in whether the company continues to exist or not, not just the government.
Not at all. If collusion forms a monopoly, in a product you need, then it just means you get charged more. It's not any different.
josda1000 wrote:
I am also NOT suggesting locking interest rates at high levels. I've said time and again, we do not need a central bank, therefore not having interest rates dictated by the state.
How would it be different than it is now, if interest rates were set by someone else ? Why would it be, beyond the 'I hate government' mantra ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
They are still using books from the 1950s !!!!
Proving my point.
Christian Graus wrote:
Are there no private schools ? If there are, are you suggesting that someone on minimum wage could afford to send 2 kids to one ?
I'm not saying there aren't any, however, there aren't enough. And someone on minimum wage won't afford it... but if we got rid of the wage req, then maybe more people could actually afford it, for the fact that more people would be paid more!
Christian Graus wrote:
Is there not ? My kids go to private schools at home, but a public school will still provide a decent education.
It's subjective obviously, but I'd say yes, there is a wide difference. Private school kids are taught to be leaders, public schools teach to be followers.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.josda1000 wrote:
Proving my point.
What, that they are underfunded ?
josda1000 wrote:
I'm not saying there aren't any, however, there aren't enough.
If they exist, then they CAN exist, then they exist to the degree that the market wants and will support them.
josda1000 wrote:
And someone on minimum wage won't afford it... but if we got rid of the wage req, then maybe more people could actually afford it, for the fact that more people would be paid more!
I'm sorry, but WHAT ? More people would be paid more money, if the government didn't say, you can't pay anyone less than XXX ? If the market was prone to do that, a minimum wage law would stop it from happening, how ?
josda1000 wrote:
It's subjective obviously, but I'd say yes, there is a wide difference. Private school kids are taught to be leaders, public schools teach to be followers.
Why do you think this is so ? At home, private school kids in some schools are taught to think like they are better than other people ( but not in the ones my kids go to ), and public schools, by definition, have more discipline problems b.c they get the kids whose parents don't care about education. I choose to pay because I do care. But, what they are taught is not that different, it's more that they have better resources. And take pressure off the public system, which is one reason I'd use them. I can afford to, and that helps the system to work.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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I hear you loud and clear. I really do. I mean, I'm there with you. The problem is, it's still theoretically "fair". Reason is, you accepted the card in the first place. You could have paid cash. Rewards are jokes, and to be suckered by such a thing is nonsense. Notice that there are only like four "major" credit cards... visa, mastercard, discover and american express. I call that a cartel. You have to GTFO of those cards, honestly. I know I am, I've been using mostly cash now for everything.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
I hear this a lot. But I have never seen one of these gold filled rooms. I seriously doubt the head of a central bank is swimming in a vault filled with gold like Scrooge McDuck...
Read into Fort Knox. Looks like you need a history lesson. Realize that I said the "central banks" have all the gold, not the commercial banks.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.josda1000 wrote:
The problem is, it's still theoretically "fair". Reason is, you accepted the card in the first place. You could have paid cash. Rewards are jokes, and to be suckered by such a thing is nonsense.
I wasn't talking about the consumer. do some research into how those cards charged the banks and companies. Visa makes the companies pay a flat transaction fee and a % of the total. You want to process a credit card and get all that extra business, you need to play ball. A debit card is <10% of the purchase as a fee. A normal credit card is around 15%. A reward card is close to 20%. Visa pushed the banks into offering more of the reward cards by upping the fee to the companies and it didn't allow them to opt out. If they wanted to be able to do normal credit cards, they had to allow reward cards. Debit cards are the best deal for the companies, but are being killed because people would rather have the rewards. Visa charges a ton for each reward card transaction, gives a little to the banks, and cackles. Mastercard was also getting into the business, was told by Visa what they were charging and followed suit.
josda1000 wrote:
Read into Fort Knox. Looks like you need a history lesson. Realize that I said the "central banks" have all the gold, not the commercial banks.
Ft. Nox hasn't had jack all for gold in ages.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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josda1000 wrote:
Proving my point.
What, that they are underfunded ?
josda1000 wrote:
I'm not saying there aren't any, however, there aren't enough.
If they exist, then they CAN exist, then they exist to the degree that the market wants and will support them.
josda1000 wrote:
And someone on minimum wage won't afford it... but if we got rid of the wage req, then maybe more people could actually afford it, for the fact that more people would be paid more!
I'm sorry, but WHAT ? More people would be paid more money, if the government didn't say, you can't pay anyone less than XXX ? If the market was prone to do that, a minimum wage law would stop it from happening, how ?
josda1000 wrote:
It's subjective obviously, but I'd say yes, there is a wide difference. Private school kids are taught to be leaders, public schools teach to be followers.
Why do you think this is so ? At home, private school kids in some schools are taught to think like they are better than other people ( but not in the ones my kids go to ), and public schools, by definition, have more discipline problems b.c they get the kids whose parents don't care about education. I choose to pay because I do care. But, what they are taught is not that different, it's more that they have better resources. And take pressure off the public system, which is one reason I'd use them. I can afford to, and that helps the system to work.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
What, that they are underfunded ?
No, I'm saying that the money is pointless to the education system... it's wasted. You'd think they'd be able to spend the money on new books by now.
Christian Graus wrote:
If they exist, then they CAN exist, then they exist to the degree that the market wants and will support them.
Here in Massachusetts, about three months ago, there was a debate on whether or not to open up a charter school in Gloucester. There were more people wanting it to be opened, while the governor definitely didn't want it to exist. I don't know what the outcome is, but I do know that he was one of very few to be against it, and he was working to get it shut down.
Christian Graus wrote:
I'm sorry, but WHAT ? More people would be paid more money, if the government didn't say, you can't pay anyone less than XXX ? If the market was prone to do that, a minimum wage law would stop it from happening, how ?
Sorry about that, but I'm apparently living a dream. Within the argument, I was expecting the value of the dollar to rise substantially with it being linked to gold/silver, or made of gold/silver. If you put the two arguments together, you have a full argument.
Christian Graus wrote:
Why do you think this is so ? At home, private school kids in some schools are taught to think like they are better than other people ( but not in the ones my kids go to ), and public schools, by definition, have more discipline problems b.c they get the kids whose parents don't care about education. I choose to pay because I do care. But, what they are taught is not that different, it's more that they have better resources. And take pressure off the public system, which is one reason I'd use them. I can afford to, and that helps the system to work.
I'm glad you see you're making a difference. And I hear you. Though I do have one argument. You said, "private school kids in SOME schools are taught to think like they are better than other people". Just realize that that's the point... to stave off the notion that all kids have to be treated equally badly or equally well would be a disaster, IMO. So if you have multiple types of schools with different teaching methods, that's a great thing.
Josh Davis
Always look -
Christian Graus wrote:
What, that they are underfunded ?
No, I'm saying that the money is pointless to the education system... it's wasted. You'd think they'd be able to spend the money on new books by now.
Christian Graus wrote:
If they exist, then they CAN exist, then they exist to the degree that the market wants and will support them.
Here in Massachusetts, about three months ago, there was a debate on whether or not to open up a charter school in Gloucester. There were more people wanting it to be opened, while the governor definitely didn't want it to exist. I don't know what the outcome is, but I do know that he was one of very few to be against it, and he was working to get it shut down.
Christian Graus wrote:
I'm sorry, but WHAT ? More people would be paid more money, if the government didn't say, you can't pay anyone less than XXX ? If the market was prone to do that, a minimum wage law would stop it from happening, how ?
Sorry about that, but I'm apparently living a dream. Within the argument, I was expecting the value of the dollar to rise substantially with it being linked to gold/silver, or made of gold/silver. If you put the two arguments together, you have a full argument.
Christian Graus wrote:
Why do you think this is so ? At home, private school kids in some schools are taught to think like they are better than other people ( but not in the ones my kids go to ), and public schools, by definition, have more discipline problems b.c they get the kids whose parents don't care about education. I choose to pay because I do care. But, what they are taught is not that different, it's more that they have better resources. And take pressure off the public system, which is one reason I'd use them. I can afford to, and that helps the system to work.
I'm glad you see you're making a difference. And I hear you. Though I do have one argument. You said, "private school kids in SOME schools are taught to think like they are better than other people". Just realize that that's the point... to stave off the notion that all kids have to be treated equally badly or equally well would be a disaster, IMO. So if you have multiple types of schools with different teaching methods, that's a great thing.
Josh Davis
Always lookjosda1000 wrote:
No, I'm saying that the money is pointless to the education system... it's wasted. You'd think they'd be able to spend the money on new books by now.
So, you either claim the teachers are too stupid to know what to do with money ( perhaps because they are so poorly paid themselves ), or that the people attracted to the job in the US don't care about education. It doesn't occur to you that they don't have new books b/c of lack of funding ?
josda1000 wrote:
There were more people wanting it to be opened, while the governor definitely didn't want it to exist. I don't know what the outcome is, but I do know that he was one of very few to be against it, and he was working to get it shut down.
Well, then the system is broken.
josda1000 wrote:
Within the argument, I was expecting the value of the dollar to rise substantially with it being linked to gold/silver, or made of gold/silver. If you put the two arguments together, you have a full argument.
Again, you want to make the people who are rich, richer, and the people who are poor, poorer. How would that help anyone ? I just don't see any logic there, sorry.
josda1000 wrote:
So if you have multiple types of schools with different teaching methods, that's a great thing.
I don't think that it's ever good to teach kids that the world owes them a living b/c of who they were born to, but yes, we do have schools with different teaching methods, and that is a good thing.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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josda1000 wrote:
Yes. If the controls are corrupted, what's the point in having them? If you don't know if something is working or not, it's not enough to try to replace it with the same garbage.
So, if your car is broken, you should not buy another one ? If your marriage fails, you should never remarry ? If you buy an apple and it's rotten, you should never buy another apple ? If your president is proven to be a liar, you should overthrow your political system and replace it with anarchy ?
josda1000 wrote:
Collusion with other companies to make a good product can only be good for the consumer, who has the real choice and final say in whether the company continues to exist or not, not just the government.
Not at all. If collusion forms a monopoly, in a product you need, then it just means you get charged more. It's not any different.
josda1000 wrote:
I am also NOT suggesting locking interest rates at high levels. I've said time and again, we do not need a central bank, therefore not having interest rates dictated by the state.
How would it be different than it is now, if interest rates were set by someone else ? Why would it be, beyond the 'I hate government' mantra ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
So, if your car is broken, you should not buy another one ? If your marriage fails, you should never remarry ? If you buy an apple and it's rotten, you should never buy another apple ? If your president is proven to be a liar, you should overthrow your political system and replace it with anarchy ?
I'm going to break this up into two groups. PERSONAL DECISIONS: So, if your car is broken, you should not buy another one ? If your marriage fails, you should never remarry ? If you buy an apple and it's rotten, you should never buy another apple ? GROUP DECISIONS: If your president is proven to be a liar, you should overthrow your political system and replace it with anarchy ? I don't suggest anarchy, however, it'd be better than the present system, IMO.
Christian Graus wrote:
Not at all. If collusion forms a monopoly, in a product you need, then it just means you get charged more. It's not any different.
I'd agree with this 100%. So then, why do you subscribe to the notion that we need a central bank, which is in fact a monopoly on money, the most essential product we have (arguably, second to food and such)?
Christian Graus wrote:
How would it be different than it is now, if interest rates were set by someone else ? Why would it be, beyond the 'I hate government' mantra ?
The market would set the rates, the commercial banks themselves, and would rise and fall according to the demands of the different sectors. If you have the time and capacity, I want you to look up Tom Woods: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Di-_cfuAVk[^] This is an 11 part series, I think it's about 2 hrs in length. I realize it's a tall order, but try it out.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two. -
josda1000 wrote:
Proving my point.
What, that they are underfunded ?
josda1000 wrote:
I'm not saying there aren't any, however, there aren't enough.
If they exist, then they CAN exist, then they exist to the degree that the market wants and will support them.
josda1000 wrote:
And someone on minimum wage won't afford it... but if we got rid of the wage req, then maybe more people could actually afford it, for the fact that more people would be paid more!
I'm sorry, but WHAT ? More people would be paid more money, if the government didn't say, you can't pay anyone less than XXX ? If the market was prone to do that, a minimum wage law would stop it from happening, how ?
josda1000 wrote:
It's subjective obviously, but I'd say yes, there is a wide difference. Private school kids are taught to be leaders, public schools teach to be followers.
Why do you think this is so ? At home, private school kids in some schools are taught to think like they are better than other people ( but not in the ones my kids go to ), and public schools, by definition, have more discipline problems b.c they get the kids whose parents don't care about education. I choose to pay because I do care. But, what they are taught is not that different, it's more that they have better resources. And take pressure off the public system, which is one reason I'd use them. I can afford to, and that helps the system to work.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
I'm sorry, but WHAT ? More people would be paid more money, if the government didn't say, you can't pay anyone less than XXX ? If the market was prone to do that, a minimum wage law would stop it from happening, how ?
Don't you know, laws magically keep people from doing something they wouldn't do anyway. In fact it has been shown when you get rid of laws stopping people from doing something , they immediately take that to mean that they should not only not do it, but not do it even more!!!! You tell them to stop paying people joke salaries and they will climb over each other to pay them great wages!!! /end sarcasm My medieval professor told me something very important once. "Whenever I saw a law being put in the books, or a clerical decree that something was immoral, it means that EVERYBODY was doing it. You don't make laws 'just in case' you make laws to stop people from doing something." Make a law saying you need to pay your people at least enough to live, that means the average wage being put out was NOT enough to live. Josh, a company exists to make money. The people in charge of the company exist to exploit that and get as much money as they can so they can have more money. Don't believe me, look up Carly Fiorina's history at HP. heck, here "fiorina, jet, hp" Look at the 5th link. She bought two jets within a month of firing a bunch of people.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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josda1000 wrote:
No, I'm saying that the money is pointless to the education system... it's wasted. You'd think they'd be able to spend the money on new books by now.
So, you either claim the teachers are too stupid to know what to do with money ( perhaps because they are so poorly paid themselves ), or that the people attracted to the job in the US don't care about education. It doesn't occur to you that they don't have new books b/c of lack of funding ?
josda1000 wrote:
There were more people wanting it to be opened, while the governor definitely didn't want it to exist. I don't know what the outcome is, but I do know that he was one of very few to be against it, and he was working to get it shut down.
Well, then the system is broken.
josda1000 wrote:
Within the argument, I was expecting the value of the dollar to rise substantially with it being linked to gold/silver, or made of gold/silver. If you put the two arguments together, you have a full argument.
Again, you want to make the people who are rich, richer, and the people who are poor, poorer. How would that help anyone ? I just don't see any logic there, sorry.
josda1000 wrote:
So if you have multiple types of schools with different teaching methods, that's a great thing.
I don't think that it's ever good to teach kids that the world owes them a living b/c of who they were born to, but yes, we do have schools with different teaching methods, and that is a good thing.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
So, you either claim the teachers are too stupid to know what to do with money ( perhaps because they are so poorly paid themselves ), or that the people attracted to the job in the US don't care about education. It doesn't occur to you that they don't have new books b/c of lack of funding ?
Wow you really are so good at changing words. You should be a politician. Or reporter. Screw programming! Look, what I'm saying is there comes a time when monetary resources are of no consequence. Teachers are paid fine, and if they're teachers, one must assume they have some intelligence. There's always the "lack of funding" mantra, but the departments are usually well paid, for the fact that people hold education dear to their hearts.
Christian Graus wrote:
Again, you want to make the people who are rich, richer, and the people who are poor, poorer. How would that help anyone ? I just don't see any logic there, sorry.
I realize that. Look I'm not asking to get paid less. What I am saying is that if you linked the fiat currency to a hard currency (yes, it is currency, it is money), then what you have is no inflation, or very steady inflation at a low rate. And that will make the country and economy richer, and a lot more resilient to depressions.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two. -
Christian Graus wrote:
I'm sorry, but WHAT ? More people would be paid more money, if the government didn't say, you can't pay anyone less than XXX ? If the market was prone to do that, a minimum wage law would stop it from happening, how ?
Don't you know, laws magically keep people from doing something they wouldn't do anyway. In fact it has been shown when you get rid of laws stopping people from doing something , they immediately take that to mean that they should not only not do it, but not do it even more!!!! You tell them to stop paying people joke salaries and they will climb over each other to pay them great wages!!! /end sarcasm My medieval professor told me something very important once. "Whenever I saw a law being put in the books, or a clerical decree that something was immoral, it means that EVERYBODY was doing it. You don't make laws 'just in case' you make laws to stop people from doing something." Make a law saying you need to pay your people at least enough to live, that means the average wage being put out was NOT enough to live. Josh, a company exists to make money. The people in charge of the company exist to exploit that and get as much money as they can so they can have more money. Don't believe me, look up Carly Fiorina's history at HP. heck, here "fiorina, jet, hp" Look at the 5th link. She bought two jets within a month of firing a bunch of people.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
Josh, a company exists to make money. The people in charge of the company exist to exploit that and get as much money as they can so they can have more money.
Is that true, Christian? Yes, I'd believe that a company exists to make money. Duh. However, most companies and entrepreneurs do make money fairly. They make a product to make money. The consumer buys the product with money for the product. That's a fair shake. I can understand your frustration over the large corporations. But to demonize the whole private sector is arrognant, ignorant and a big mistake.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
"Whenever I saw a law being put in the books, or a clerical decree that something was immoral, it means that EVERYBODY was doing it. You don't make laws 'just in case' you make laws to stop people from doing something."
Agreed. Big time. This is why what we have today is NOT capitalism, it is fascism.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two. -
Christian Graus wrote:
So, you either claim the teachers are too stupid to know what to do with money ( perhaps because they are so poorly paid themselves ), or that the people attracted to the job in the US don't care about education. It doesn't occur to you that they don't have new books b/c of lack of funding ?
Wow you really are so good at changing words. You should be a politician. Or reporter. Screw programming! Look, what I'm saying is there comes a time when monetary resources are of no consequence. Teachers are paid fine, and if they're teachers, one must assume they have some intelligence. There's always the "lack of funding" mantra, but the departments are usually well paid, for the fact that people hold education dear to their hearts.
Christian Graus wrote:
Again, you want to make the people who are rich, richer, and the people who are poor, poorer. How would that help anyone ? I just don't see any logic there, sorry.
I realize that. Look I'm not asking to get paid less. What I am saying is that if you linked the fiat currency to a hard currency (yes, it is currency, it is money), then what you have is no inflation, or very steady inflation at a low rate. And that will make the country and economy richer, and a lot more resilient to depressions.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.josda1000 wrote:
Wow you really are so good at changing words. You should be a politician. Or reporter. Screw programming!
LOL - I am applying logic. I can think of three reasons the schools don't have up to date books. You've discounted one, so I presented the other two for you to choose. If you have an alternative, then that's fine, too.
josda1000 wrote:
Look, what I'm saying is there comes a time when monetary resources are of no consequence. Teachers are paid fine, and if they're teachers, one must assume they have some intelligence.
The teachers I know, live in the poor part of town because they have to. They can't afford to live where their students do.
josda1000 wrote:
There's always the "lack of funding" mantra, but the departments are usually well paid, for the fact that people hold education dear to their hearts.
This is an assumption. And if it's true, then the books must be out of date b/c the teachers don't care about education. If they have enough money, why else would they not use it to buy resources they need ?
josda1000 wrote:
What I am saying is that if you linked the fiat currency to a hard currency (yes, it is currency, it is money), then what you have is no inflation, or very steady inflation at a low rate.
That's a gross assumption. Inflation is caused by many things, interest rates are very low on that list. Interest rates do not make the price of bread go up, for example.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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ragnaroknrol wrote:
Josh, a company exists to make money. The people in charge of the company exist to exploit that and get as much money as they can so they can have more money.
Is that true, Christian? Yes, I'd believe that a company exists to make money. Duh. However, most companies and entrepreneurs do make money fairly. They make a product to make money. The consumer buys the product with money for the product. That's a fair shake. I can understand your frustration over the large corporations. But to demonize the whole private sector is arrognant, ignorant and a big mistake.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
"Whenever I saw a law being put in the books, or a clerical decree that something was immoral, it means that EVERYBODY was doing it. You don't make laws 'just in case' you make laws to stop people from doing something."
Agreed. Big time. This is why what we have today is NOT capitalism, it is fascism.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.josda1000 wrote:
Is that true, Christian?
Of course, a company exists to make money from clients, and to limit their costs.
josda1000 wrote:
However, most companies and entrepreneurs do make money fairly. They make a product to make money. The consumer buys the product with money for the product. That's a fair shake.
The point is more that when they want to raise profits, they need to raise the price, or lower costs. So they'll pay as little for labor as they can get away with.
josda1000 wrote:
Agreed. Big time. This is why what we have today is NOT capitalism, it is fascism.
I still disagree with that. It's a mix of capitalism and socialism, and it's better for it, although I do not claim the mix is 100% right.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
So, if your car is broken, you should not buy another one ? If your marriage fails, you should never remarry ? If you buy an apple and it's rotten, you should never buy another apple ? If your president is proven to be a liar, you should overthrow your political system and replace it with anarchy ?
I'm going to break this up into two groups. PERSONAL DECISIONS: So, if your car is broken, you should not buy another one ? If your marriage fails, you should never remarry ? If you buy an apple and it's rotten, you should never buy another apple ? GROUP DECISIONS: If your president is proven to be a liar, you should overthrow your political system and replace it with anarchy ? I don't suggest anarchy, however, it'd be better than the present system, IMO.
Christian Graus wrote:
Not at all. If collusion forms a monopoly, in a product you need, then it just means you get charged more. It's not any different.
I'd agree with this 100%. So then, why do you subscribe to the notion that we need a central bank, which is in fact a monopoly on money, the most essential product we have (arguably, second to food and such)?
Christian Graus wrote:
How would it be different than it is now, if interest rates were set by someone else ? Why would it be, beyond the 'I hate government' mantra ?
The market would set the rates, the commercial banks themselves, and would rise and fall according to the demands of the different sectors. If you have the time and capacity, I want you to look up Tom Woods: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Di-_cfuAVk[^] This is an 11 part series, I think it's about 2 hrs in length. I realize it's a tall order, but try it out.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.You know, you're an interesting guy, I do enjoy discussing this stuff with you.
josda1000 wrote:
I don't suggest anarchy, however, it'd be better than the present system, IMO.
ROTFL - everyone who assumes that, assumes too much good will on the part of their fellow man, IMO. Most people are good. Anarchy would give the jerks a lot more scope to create havoc.
josda1000 wrote:
So then, why do you subscribe to the notion that we need a central bank, which is in fact a monopoly on money, the most essential product we have (arguably, second to food and such)?
Money is not a product, it's a placeholder for worth. That is, it's a way to avoid having to barter directly. A nation's money supply is important to the well being and security of the nation. Letting free enterprise control it would be insane.
josda1000 wrote:
The market would set the rates, the commercial banks themselves, and would rise and fall according to the demands of the different sectors.
So, they could rise and fall in opposition to the interests of the nation, so that some companies could make more money ?
josda1000 wrote:
This is an 11 part series, I think it's about 2 hrs in length. I realize it's a tall order, but try it out.
I am in Dallas right now, any video is pretty much out until I go home. Two hours is indeed a tall order. I'd prefer the book version if possible.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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josda1000 wrote:
Is that true, Christian?
Of course, a company exists to make money from clients, and to limit their costs.
josda1000 wrote:
However, most companies and entrepreneurs do make money fairly. They make a product to make money. The consumer buys the product with money for the product. That's a fair shake.
The point is more that when they want to raise profits, they need to raise the price, or lower costs. So they'll pay as little for labor as they can get away with.
josda1000 wrote:
Agreed. Big time. This is why what we have today is NOT capitalism, it is fascism.
I still disagree with that. It's a mix of capitalism and socialism, and it's better for it, although I do not claim the mix is 100% right.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
I still disagree with that. It's a mix of capitalism and socialism, and it's better for it, although I do not claim the mix is 100% right.
I know you don't agree with it. That's why what you have is a belief, you are outright misunderstanding ON PURPOSE the facts. I agree that it's a real lightweight version of fascism, but the definition is accurate.
Christian Graus wrote:
The point is more that when they want to raise profits, they need to raise the price, or lower costs. So they'll pay as little for labor as they can get away with.
Or, they could stimulate demand for it by lowering the price of their product. There's always the idea that the company wants to lower costs, there's no reason to raise it unless absolutely necessary.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two. -
Christian Graus wrote:
I still disagree with that. It's a mix of capitalism and socialism, and it's better for it, although I do not claim the mix is 100% right.
I know you don't agree with it. That's why what you have is a belief, you are outright misunderstanding ON PURPOSE the facts. I agree that it's a real lightweight version of fascism, but the definition is accurate.
Christian Graus wrote:
The point is more that when they want to raise profits, they need to raise the price, or lower costs. So they'll pay as little for labor as they can get away with.
Or, they could stimulate demand for it by lowering the price of their product. There's always the idea that the company wants to lower costs, there's no reason to raise it unless absolutely necessary.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.josda1000 wrote:
That's why what you have is a belief, you are outright misunderstanding ON PURPOSE the facts. I agree that it's a real lightweight version of fascism, but the definition is accurate.
It's possible you could stretch the definition to fit, or even that it loosely fits, on the edges. But, when you start to invoke Nazism, you're implying something different to that.
josda1000 wrote:
Or, they could stimulate demand for it by lowering the price of their product.
Why not both ? Why not limit your costs, rather than lower the price and hope to sell enough extra to cover it ? When you have fixed labor costs, lowering the price can only go so far before you run out of margin.
josda1000 wrote:
There's always the idea that the company wants to lower costs, there's no reason to raise it unless absolutely necessary.
But this is my point. Your company pays you what it needs to, for you to stay. Mine does the same. If I were unskilled, then there would be a steady pool of people to replace me, and they could probably get away with having people for a month at a time, if the labor pool was big enough.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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You know, you're an interesting guy, I do enjoy discussing this stuff with you.
josda1000 wrote:
I don't suggest anarchy, however, it'd be better than the present system, IMO.
ROTFL - everyone who assumes that, assumes too much good will on the part of their fellow man, IMO. Most people are good. Anarchy would give the jerks a lot more scope to create havoc.
josda1000 wrote:
So then, why do you subscribe to the notion that we need a central bank, which is in fact a monopoly on money, the most essential product we have (arguably, second to food and such)?
Money is not a product, it's a placeholder for worth. That is, it's a way to avoid having to barter directly. A nation's money supply is important to the well being and security of the nation. Letting free enterprise control it would be insane.
josda1000 wrote:
The market would set the rates, the commercial banks themselves, and would rise and fall according to the demands of the different sectors.
So, they could rise and fall in opposition to the interests of the nation, so that some companies could make more money ?
josda1000 wrote:
This is an 11 part series, I think it's about 2 hrs in length. I realize it's a tall order, but try it out.
I am in Dallas right now, any video is pretty much out until I go home. Two hours is indeed a tall order. I'd prefer the book version if possible.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
ROTFL - everyone who assumes that, assumes too much good will on the part of their fellow man, IMO. Most people are good. Anarchy would give the jerks a lot more scope to create havoc.
I can understand this, but think of it this way: more people would be less apt to lie or commit fraud, for the fact that if they did, the consequences for that person could be disastrous. But, people's true colors would show a lot more, for the thought that there is no state to crawl to.
Christian Graus wrote:
Money is not a product, it's a placeholder for worth. That is, it's a way to avoid having to barter directly. A nation's money supply is important to the well being and security of the nation. Letting free enterprise control it would be insane.
If that's true, and with the fact that gold is money, why do we say that we "buy gold"? Why do we "buy euros" and "buy dollars"? This isn't parsing words. It's a matter of fact that the Fed "produces" dollars, what were once commonly called bank notes. They take in a natural resource, paper, and output printed federal reserve notes.
Christian Graus wrote:
So, they could rise and fall in opposition to the interests of the nation, so that some companies could make more money ?
Wait a minute, so you're saying that the economy is antithetical to the state? Seriously, interest rates rise and fall (back before the central banks) according to demand. If the demand was great, then the interest rate would rise. If the demand was small, it would fall. It's that simple. But it must be done per bank, not per one "know all be all" centralized state bank.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two. -
josda1000 wrote:
That's why what you have is a belief, you are outright misunderstanding ON PURPOSE the facts. I agree that it's a real lightweight version of fascism, but the definition is accurate.
It's possible you could stretch the definition to fit, or even that it loosely fits, on the edges. But, when you start to invoke Nazism, you're implying something different to that.
josda1000 wrote:
Or, they could stimulate demand for it by lowering the price of their product.
Why not both ? Why not limit your costs, rather than lower the price and hope to sell enough extra to cover it ? When you have fixed labor costs, lowering the price can only go so far before you run out of margin.
josda1000 wrote:
There's always the idea that the company wants to lower costs, there's no reason to raise it unless absolutely necessary.
But this is my point. Your company pays you what it needs to, for you to stay. Mine does the same. If I were unskilled, then there would be a steady pool of people to replace me, and they could probably get away with having people for a month at a time, if the labor pool was big enough.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian, I do not misinterpret words as you as soon would. From the Wikipedia that everyone seems to either love or hate: Fascists seek to organize a nation on corporatist perspectives, values, and systems such as the political system and the economy. Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong. Sounds fucking accurate to me. I'm not "loosely fitting" this, and not "stretching the definition". This is straight out of wiki.
Christian Graus wrote:
But, when you start to invoke Nazism, you're implying something different to that.
Subtract the heinous murder of civilians in Germany. If you do that, I'd say we're actually WORSE than Germany back then. Talk to those who lived back then in that area. They'll see the problems.
Christian Graus wrote:
Why not both ? Why not limit your costs, rather than lower the price and hope to sell enough extra to cover it ? When you have fixed labor costs, lowering the price can only go so far before you run out of margin.
Oh I can understand this. But if you stimulate demand enough, and hold the price, you'll make loot buddy. And you'll out compete your competitors, and that's how you make it.
Christian Graus wrote:
But this is my point. Your company pays you what it needs to, for you to stay. Mine does the same. If I were unskilled, then there would be a steady pool of people to replace me, and they could probably get away with having people for a month at a time, if the labor pool was big enough.
OK? So then you make a new contract with a new company. What's the problem? If capitalism were to work properly, and you were cut from your team, go join a new ball club.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two. -
Christian Graus wrote:
ROTFL - everyone who assumes that, assumes too much good will on the part of their fellow man, IMO. Most people are good. Anarchy would give the jerks a lot more scope to create havoc.
I can understand this, but think of it this way: more people would be less apt to lie or commit fraud, for the fact that if they did, the consequences for that person could be disastrous. But, people's true colors would show a lot more, for the thought that there is no state to crawl to.
Christian Graus wrote:
Money is not a product, it's a placeholder for worth. That is, it's a way to avoid having to barter directly. A nation's money supply is important to the well being and security of the nation. Letting free enterprise control it would be insane.
If that's true, and with the fact that gold is money, why do we say that we "buy gold"? Why do we "buy euros" and "buy dollars"? This isn't parsing words. It's a matter of fact that the Fed "produces" dollars, what were once commonly called bank notes. They take in a natural resource, paper, and output printed federal reserve notes.
Christian Graus wrote:
So, they could rise and fall in opposition to the interests of the nation, so that some companies could make more money ?
Wait a minute, so you're saying that the economy is antithetical to the state? Seriously, interest rates rise and fall (back before the central banks) according to demand. If the demand was great, then the interest rate would rise. If the demand was small, it would fall. It's that simple. But it must be done per bank, not per one "know all be all" centralized state bank.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.josda1000 wrote:
but think of it this way: more people would be less apt to lie or commit fraud, for the fact that if they did, the consequences for that person could be disastrous.
You mean if they were inclined to crime, they could just flat out shoot people instead ? :P If those sort of incentives work, why did we form societies in the first place ?
josda1000 wrote:
If that's true, and with the fact that gold is money, why do we say that we "buy gold"? Why do we "buy euros" and "buy dollars"?
Because you have a certain amount of 'worth' from your endeavours, which comes to you typically in your local currency. I can decide it's a good investment to convert at the current rate to another currency, or to something like gold. How does that change anything I said ?
josda1000 wrote:
This isn't parsing words. It's a matter of fact that the Fed "produces" dollars, what were once commonly called bank notes. They take in a natural resource, paper, and output printed federal reserve notes.
Of course. But if they just print like crazy, they devalue the dollars out there. So, it's not money for nothing, it's a reflection on the worth of the US economy.
josda1000 wrote:
Wait a minute, so you're saying that the economy is antithetical to the state?
I'm saying that the CEO of a multinational company will not always work in the interests of the state. I'm saying the two are decoupled, not always opposed, or always aligned.
josda1000 wrote:
Seriously, interest rates rise and fall (back before the central banks) according to demand. If the demand was great, then the interest rate would rise. If the demand was small, it would fall. It's that simple.
Well, that is the theory.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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josda1000 wrote:
but think of it this way: more people would be less apt to lie or commit fraud, for the fact that if they did, the consequences for that person could be disastrous.
You mean if they were inclined to crime, they could just flat out shoot people instead ? :P If those sort of incentives work, why did we form societies in the first place ?
josda1000 wrote:
If that's true, and with the fact that gold is money, why do we say that we "buy gold"? Why do we "buy euros" and "buy dollars"?
Because you have a certain amount of 'worth' from your endeavours, which comes to you typically in your local currency. I can decide it's a good investment to convert at the current rate to another currency, or to something like gold. How does that change anything I said ?
josda1000 wrote:
This isn't parsing words. It's a matter of fact that the Fed "produces" dollars, what were once commonly called bank notes. They take in a natural resource, paper, and output printed federal reserve notes.
Of course. But if they just print like crazy, they devalue the dollars out there. So, it's not money for nothing, it's a reflection on the worth of the US economy.
josda1000 wrote:
Wait a minute, so you're saying that the economy is antithetical to the state?
I'm saying that the CEO of a multinational company will not always work in the interests of the state. I'm saying the two are decoupled, not always opposed, or always aligned.
josda1000 wrote:
Seriously, interest rates rise and fall (back before the central banks) according to demand. If the demand was great, then the interest rate would rise. If the demand was small, it would fall. It's that simple.
Well, that is the theory.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
You mean if they were inclined to crime, they could just flat out shoot people instead ? :P
Lol funny... though I wouldn't put it past them lol
Christian Graus wrote:
If those sort of incentives work, why did we form societies in the first place ?
Society exists for the sanity of people... people love to talk and converse. Interaction is great, and to work together to get things done is even better (better known today as companies). If you're talking about the state, the state exists to grant monopolies to certain companies. Why is legislation by far unfair and advantageous? If certain companies commit fraud or break the "law", why is it that they get away with it, even if there's a major uproar about it from the population? Remove yourself from the situation and think about this.
Christian Graus wrote:
Because you have a certain amount of 'worth' from your endeavours, which comes to you typically in your local currency.
No. Worth is decided by individuals, not by a "thing" arbitrarily. What matters to you may not matter at ALL to me. This is precisely why there is such a debate on metal vs paper in the first place. Worth comes to you inherently.
Christian Graus wrote:
I can decide it's a good investment to convert at the current rate to another currency, or to something like gold. How does that change anything I said ?
That's better. Yes, you decide. Correct. Why don't I just buy grain with wheat? It's valuable to many people. The problem with "fiat currencies" as we know it is the fact that we're TOLD to use it. If I were truly a free person, I would be trading in silver. I'd also stockpile a bunch of cans of tuna and use that if I really needed it, or I'd eat it. Nobody values it like I do, WTF!? lol Anyway, this is the fact: buying and selling are just terms used to describe the releasing of one product and the earning of another. It's just exchange. You may think and value in units of one currency, while I think in terms of, say, cans of tuna. "Oh! I can get 2 cans of tuna for that jar of almonds!" It's just a unit of measure, a medium of exchange. You and I can understand that. But what's the value of something that runs out of steam? What if the tuna goes bad? Why exchange it? With that, why u
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Christian Graus wrote:
You mean if they were inclined to crime, they could just flat out shoot people instead ? :P
Lol funny... though I wouldn't put it past them lol
Christian Graus wrote:
If those sort of incentives work, why did we form societies in the first place ?
Society exists for the sanity of people... people love to talk and converse. Interaction is great, and to work together to get things done is even better (better known today as companies). If you're talking about the state, the state exists to grant monopolies to certain companies. Why is legislation by far unfair and advantageous? If certain companies commit fraud or break the "law", why is it that they get away with it, even if there's a major uproar about it from the population? Remove yourself from the situation and think about this.
Christian Graus wrote:
Because you have a certain amount of 'worth' from your endeavours, which comes to you typically in your local currency.
No. Worth is decided by individuals, not by a "thing" arbitrarily. What matters to you may not matter at ALL to me. This is precisely why there is such a debate on metal vs paper in the first place. Worth comes to you inherently.
Christian Graus wrote:
I can decide it's a good investment to convert at the current rate to another currency, or to something like gold. How does that change anything I said ?
That's better. Yes, you decide. Correct. Why don't I just buy grain with wheat? It's valuable to many people. The problem with "fiat currencies" as we know it is the fact that we're TOLD to use it. If I were truly a free person, I would be trading in silver. I'd also stockpile a bunch of cans of tuna and use that if I really needed it, or I'd eat it. Nobody values it like I do, WTF!? lol Anyway, this is the fact: buying and selling are just terms used to describe the releasing of one product and the earning of another. It's just exchange. You may think and value in units of one currency, while I think in terms of, say, cans of tuna. "Oh! I can get 2 cans of tuna for that jar of almonds!" It's just a unit of measure, a medium of exchange. You and I can understand that. But what's the value of something that runs out of steam? What if the tuna goes bad? Why exchange it? With that, why u
josda1000 wrote:
Society exists for the sanity of people... people love to talk and converse. Interaction is great, and to work together to get things done is even better (better known today as companies).
We could do that without a rigidly defined system of laws. The fact is, such a system only works in small groups, where everyone knows everyone. If you live in New York, and there's no cops, why not mug a stranger ?
josda1000 wrote:
If you're talking about the state, the state exists to grant monopolies to certain companies
Rubbish. The state exists to define and enforce standards that allow communities to exist by making people feel safe.
josda1000 wrote:
If certain companies commit fraud or break the "law", why is it that they get away with it, even if there's a major uproar about it from the population?
That doesn't mean that's why the state exists.
josda1000 wrote:
No. Worth is decided by individuals, not by a "thing" arbitrarily.
Sure. Your boss decides your worth to him. How can he provide you with that 'worth' without some mutually agreed upon vehicle to do so ? Why does the vehicle have to be a piece of metal ? Is gold worth the amount we pay for it ? Why is it ? Because we agree it is. Money is no different.
josda1000 wrote:
What matters to you may not matter at ALL to me. This is precisely why there is such a debate on metal vs paper in the first place.
Money does not work on the basis of what matters to you, it works on the basis of a shared agreement of worth. So does gold.
josda1000 wrote:
Why don't I just buy grain with wheat?
You mean, use wheat to buy some other grain ? Barter does not work because you need to store the product you make, and you need to hope that everyone who has something you want, wants what you have.
josda1000 wrote:
The problem with "fiat currencies" as we know it is the fact that we're TOLD to use it.
Well, to be honest, you're free to try to barter if you want. But, it's not workable, that's why societies changed.
josda1000 wrote:
Anyway, this is the fact: buying and sellin