"Why Gold?" and other issues with fixed currency
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
This is a straw man argument. Moving earth is not going to destroy the earth. Neither is carbon dioxide. The real environmental problems are genetically modified crops, chemicals, and biological threats.
Calling a strawman while using a strawman. I am going to have to invent a term for this. Mining causes chemical pollution. There is no way around this as the chemicals for the equipment, blasting, and moving the rock.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Free market logic dictates that we need a sound currency, and fiat is not sound by any measure. It must be physically difficult to manipulate the money supply.
Why must it be physically difficult? I can do it with some fools gold and idiots believing my coin is good.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Not really. All a country needs is to produce something people will buy, or compete in the labor market.
we can do that now without gold.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Well look at our current system. It is collapsing.
And Macintosh is a dead company, and computers will never be more than toys, and no one will ever need more than 512K RAM, and Japanese cars are junk, and man can't fly, and we'll never get a man on the moon, and the sky is falling. Funny thing about predicitions, so few come true.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
Calling a strawman while using a strawman. I am going to have to invent a term for this.
Single-threaded?
ragnaroknrol wrote:
Mining causes chemical pollution. There is no way around this as the chemicals for the equipment, blasting, and moving the rock.
No, it's just poisonous. I wouldn't call it pollution though (depending on the method).
ragnaroknrol wrote:
Why must it be physically difficult? I can do it with some fools gold and idiots believing my coin is good.
Hey, it works! lol
ragnaroknrol wrote:
we can do that now without gold.
But we don't. We're the largest debtor nation in the world.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two. -
josda1000 wrote:
I do still think that DC shouldn't technically be voting, because they aren't states, and really DC doesn't make up part of the Union, when talking in federal terms.
If you live in DC you don't even count as 1% human and that's okay?
josda1000 wrote:
I've never said that. I've been contending that we amend the Constitution. I'm not saying to scrap it. I'm not saying to just ignore it. Amend the damned thing.
Fine by me, but let's amend it smartly and not in some far out place. Those proposed amendments? SOme of them are outright foolish. Line item veto means the President doesn't need to be somewhat civil with congress. Bush effectively did this with his "signing statements" and it was a bad move. Other presidents doing it donesn't make it right either. Abortion laws, one way or the other, marriage definitions, letting Scwartzenegger be President, none of these need to be there.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
If you live in DC you don't even count as 1% human and that's okay?
I never said you don't count as human. But the District of Columbia was set up to be the capital, and not a state. 10 miles square. All you have to do is move to Virginia. Even if you want to be on the border.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
Fine by me, but let's amend it smartly and not in some far out place. Those proposed amendments? SOme of them are outright foolish.
I'm glad you agree.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
Line item veto means the President doesn't need to be somewhat civil with congress. Bush effectively did this with his "signing statements" and it was a bad move. Other presidents doing it donesn't make it right either.
Those aren't amendments to the Constitution. That's legislation. I mean, if what Congress did was make amendments to the constitution, we definitely would be living in tryanny.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
Abortion laws, one way or the other, marriage definitions, letting Scwartzenegger be President, none of these need to be there.
Again, legislation.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two. -
Dalek Dave wrote:
Happy not to discuss, but QE is Not Inflation.
Yes it does mean inflation, if the newly created currency ever goes into circulation.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
When a brainless uneducated cunt utters shite, the educated tend not to listen. Go learn some shit wank hole. Then you too can join the ranks of the educated. Quantitative easing is not a money supply issue, it is an interbank debt release. Or are big numbers too hard for you while you wank on your pizza delivery round?
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
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But again, why does it have to be metal? Do you consider the numbers in your savings account any less valuable than the $20 bills in your wallet? I think we've moved beyond the age where you need to hold something in your hand for it to have value.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
I think we've moved beyond the age where you need to hold something in your hand for it to have value.
Why is now different from ever before? I can't eat the internet, if I'm hungry. I can't eat gold either - it is as much fiat as the dollar. It only has value because people are willing to pay for it. From a practical point of view, it has no intrinsic value, as none of us use it for anything but fashion. Industry uses it, but I don't want to go give it to Apple for a bunch of iPads. Jewelers use it, but only because people like fashion. Unless you can eat it or use it to make your life better, it is all fiat value.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
I think we've moved beyond the age where you need to hold something in your hand for it to have value.
Why is now different from ever before? I can't eat the internet, if I'm hungry. I can't eat gold either - it is as much fiat as the dollar. It only has value because people are willing to pay for it. From a practical point of view, it has no intrinsic value, as none of us use it for anything but fashion. Industry uses it, but I don't want to go give it to Apple for a bunch of iPads. Jewelers use it, but only because people like fashion. Unless you can eat it or use it to make your life better, it is all fiat value.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
RichardM1 wrote:
Unless you can eat it or use it to make your life better, it is all fiat value.
That's one way of looking at it, true, and in a technical and semantic sense I would agree. Of course, we know the commonly-accepted definition of "fiat" currency vs "fixed" :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
When a brainless uneducated cunt utters shite, the educated tend not to listen. Go learn some shit wank hole. Then you too can join the ranks of the educated. Quantitative easing is not a money supply issue, it is an interbank debt release. Or are big numbers too hard for you while you wank on your pizza delivery round?
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
You Keynesian clowns don't know shit, that is why the economy is so fucked right now. Bunch of Keynesian retards.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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When a brainless uneducated cunt utters shite, the educated tend not to listen. Go learn some shit wank hole. Then you too can join the ranks of the educated. Quantitative easing is not a money supply issue, it is an interbank debt release. Or are big numbers too hard for you while you wank on your pizza delivery round?
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
I can't help but think that giving him a spray like that excites him somehow... You needn't lower yourself to his level!! ;-)
I don't have ADHD, I have ADOS... Attention Deficit oooh SHINY!! If you like cars, check out the Booger Mobile blog | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
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RichardM1 wrote:
Unless you can eat it or use it to make your life better, it is all fiat value.
That's one way of looking at it, true, and in a technical and semantic sense I would agree. Of course, we know the commonly-accepted definition of "fiat" currency vs "fixed" :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)I understood that - my point is that the definitions assume metal has value, as a precondition. It has no more intrinsic value than paper, and won't keep you as warm, if you try and burn it. If you want to get to the root of the issue, you have to look at the hidden beliefs, as well.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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I can't help but think that giving him a spray like that excites him somehow... You needn't lower yourself to his level!! ;-)
I don't have ADHD, I have ADOS... Attention Deficit oooh SHINY!! If you like cars, check out the Booger Mobile blog | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
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No, it's still 12 zeros. It's exactly what it used to be.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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I understood that - my point is that the definitions assume metal has value, as a precondition. It has no more intrinsic value than paper, and won't keep you as warm, if you try and burn it. If you want to get to the root of the issue, you have to look at the hidden beliefs, as well.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
Yep, I agree completely.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
If the economy fails then gold is not going to help. People will want to trade something of value, a cow might work, food most likely, guns with ammunition probably. I see barter coming back which will thin out the population quickly. Sorry I read way to much SF.
djj55 wrote:
Sorry I read way to much SF.
That's not a bad thing. But you've hit upon the problem, trying to make Gold the core backbone won't work because, as has been said more thana few times before, worth would be relative. It'd be nice to think of some immutable commodity to use as the bedrock but there's no such thing that exists.
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What sort of moron would say that gold has no value ? Whoever they are, I hope they have gold, I'll take it.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
What sort of moron would say that gold has no value
It has no value to me. I possess gold merely because it has value to morons. If everyone felt the same about gold as I do ("It's bright and shiny - so what?") gold would have no value other than as a commodity.
Bob Emmett New Eugenicist - The weekly magazine for intelligent parenting. Published by the New World Order Press.
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You Keynesian clowns don't know shit, that is why the economy is so fucked right now. Bunch of Keynesian retards.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
The economy is 'so f***ed' because nobody in the USA will enforce the laws that protect your financial system. Even after deregulation, there are still plenty of controls that, had they been enforced, would have prevented this mess. Political Expediency trumps the Law. Political Avarice trumps the Law. BTW: Bernanke is not a Keynesian, he is a Monetarist, a follower of the libertarians Milton Friedman and Anna Schwartz. Go learn something before you shoot your mouth off.
Bob Emmett New Eugenicist - The weekly magazine for intelligent parenting. Published by the New World Order Press.
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Christian Graus wrote:
What sort of moron would say that gold has no value
It has no value to me. I possess gold merely because it has value to morons. If everyone felt the same about gold as I do ("It's bright and shiny - so what?") gold would have no value other than as a commodity.
Bob Emmett New Eugenicist - The weekly magazine for intelligent parenting. Published by the New World Order Press.
Bob Emmett wrote:
If everyone felt the same about gold as I do ("It's bright and shiny - so what?") gold would have no value other than as a commodity.
Sure, I am with you. But, so long as it has an agreed value, it would be crazy to say it does not.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Bob Emmett wrote:
If everyone felt the same about gold as I do ("It's bright and shiny - so what?") gold would have no value other than as a commodity.
Sure, I am with you. But, so long as it has an agreed value, it would be crazy to say it does not.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Not supporting the idea of gold-backed currency, but to explain their viewpoint: The amount of currency that represents one ounce of gold would be fixed. The government would not be permitted to print more currency unless it obtains more gold to back it. The "value" would basically be like the consumer price index... As in, how much it costs to buy a loaf of bread. Hence, in your example, if the car was worth 2 pounds of gold, that would translate to a fixed dollar amount. If the amount of gold/currency in circulation was reduced (Trade deficit, hoarding, etc), our currency would become more valuable in that the car would now only cost 1.9 pounds of gold. Again, I'm not supporting the idea of gold-backed currency (I disagree with it). Just explaining how it would theoretically work.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)and I still don't see how gold will be better... there's no way gold and/or silver will be able to keep with our growing economies... but thanks for the explanation
I want to die like my grandfather- asleep, not like the passengers in his car, screaming!
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josda1000 wrote:
Gold is $1200 an ounce. I suggest you get to it. Oh but wait. If it became money, then the price of gold would rise, creating inflation. I don't understand why you hold back if you would make money
At $1200/ounce it wouldn't be worth teh time or money to get it. At 5k+ it would. Also, I like my neighbors, the fumes would kill people not prepared for it.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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ragnaroknrol wrote:
If you live in DC you don't even count as 1% human and that's okay?
I never said you don't count as human. But the District of Columbia was set up to be the capital, and not a state. 10 miles square. All you have to do is move to Virginia. Even if you want to be on the border.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
Fine by me, but let's amend it smartly and not in some far out place. Those proposed amendments? SOme of them are outright foolish.
I'm glad you agree.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
Line item veto means the President doesn't need to be somewhat civil with congress. Bush effectively did this with his "signing statements" and it was a bad move. Other presidents doing it donesn't make it right either.
Those aren't amendments to the Constitution. That's legislation. I mean, if what Congress did was make amendments to the constitution, we definitely would be living in tryanny.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
Abortion laws, one way or the other, marriage definitions, letting Scwartzenegger be President, none of these need to be there.
Again, legislation.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.josda1000 wrote:
All you have to do is move to Virginia. Even if you want to be on the border.
So if someone wants to vote for the President, they shouldn't live in the capital city. (ie, the President shouldn't get a vote in Presidential elections?!) DC operates in very strange ways, I don't agree that it should not count and people should be forced to live somewhere else to have rights eqal to someone a mile away.
josda1000 wrote:
Those aren't amendments to the Constitution. That's legislation. I mean, if what Congress did was make amendments to the constitution, we definitely would be living in tryanny.
Look at the link you provided again, all of the things I said were proposed amendments that didn't make it. Not legislation, attempts to amend the constitution that start in Congress and have to get enough support to go to the next step. We agree the constitution should be amended more often and more intelligently. I believe it is because it was intended to be a living document, updated as needed to keep it capable of surviving in the contemporary world.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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ragnaroknrol wrote:
At $1200/ounce it wouldn't be worth teh time or money to get it. At 5k+ it would. Also, I like my neighbors, the fumes would kill people not prepared for it.
And you dont have any mercury handy?
Shhhh, let me have my dreams.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.