"Why Gold?" and other issues with fixed currency
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Good point. I was thinking backwards, b/c gold is something you buy.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Gold and silver is in limited supply
If we declare that our currency is now fixed, it's a limited supply.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The problem with this is that the government will always debase the currency. History proves it. The only way to keep government currency manipulation in check is to use something real like gold and silver.
Hence, you make it completely illegal and unconstitutional (through amendment) for the government to manipulate the money supply. If you're just going to assume that any system is going to be corrupted except for your favorite one, then you're not contributing to this discussion at all.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is no reason why checks, and debit/credit cards can't be used with a gold and silver currency. Also, people typically have some change in their pockets, since gold and silver is so valuable, a couple ounces of silver coin would be around 50 bucks in today's dollar. A cellphone weighs more than that. Gold is even more valuable.
A fair statement, though it would require that ALL currency was metal. We'd need a lot of different denominations of coins (To be able to reasonably carry a few bucks or a few thousand bucks), since no one wants to carry $1,000 in twenty-dollar coins.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
When the coin is lost, it is out of circulation. When currency is out of circulation, the value of that lost coin is transferred to all of the other coins in circulation.
In other words, we'd have a constant trickle of deflation.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
Hence, you make it completely illegal and unconstitutional (through amendment) for the government to manipulate the money supply.
That go against everything the United States has ever stood for. It stands for freedom for the people, not freedom for the government and corporations to do as it wants. You want to know why the corporations are growing up around you? It's this very issue.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
If you're just going to assume that any system is going to be corrupted except for your favorite one, then you're not contributing to this discussion at all.
It's not about favorites. Like CSS said, it's about history.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
A fair statement, though it would require that ALL currency was metal.
The problem is, what's currency and what isn't? Technically, if the "currency" was backed by gold, and redeemable (key word), then that "currency" really isn't the currency. The gold is.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
We'd need a lot of different denominations of coins (To be able to reasonably carry a few bucks or a few thousand bucks), since no one wants to carry $1,000 in twenty-dollar coins.
I'd be for certificates.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
In other words, we'd have a constant trickle of deflation.
Yes. Like Tom Woods says, "oh no! Prices are going down! We're in a deflationary spiral!" There's nothing wrong with a little deflation.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two. -
The point of the thread is that if we all suddenly decided "Ok, we're going to switch to some form of fixed currency," then how do we deal with these issues? As in, if we ARE going to use fixed currency, why does it have to be based on gold/silver? And how do we deal with the currency (Whether it's valued in itself or representative of metal) being destroyed? I described these issues in detail in the original post of this thread.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
As in, if we ARE going to use fixed currency, why does it have to be based on gold/silver?
Gold and silver are in limited supply, and cannot be created out of thin air. Gold and silver are stable, unlike platinum, which swings in price depending on how the auto industry is doing (platinum is used in catalytic converters).
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Working under the assumption that we're using gold/silver-backed currency... In the old days, gold/silver were only used as currency and for luxury goods. Now, they have uses in industry. Let's go with a hypothetical situation... Some research lab just developed a new form of small-scale energy production, maybe a new kind of solar cell or a more efficient battery for electric vehicles. This is something that could revolutionize its industry and push us, as a society, way ahead on the technological curve. The catch, though, is that it requires some amount of gold or silver to construct. Other than that, the materials are dirt cheap. Since gold/silver is our currency, it's hundreds of thousands of dollars per ounce (It would have to be, for our gold supply to match our currency supply) - Or regardless of the exact numbers, it's going to be much more expensive BECAUSE it's our currency. Now, instead of these solar cells - Let's use that as the example - costing next-to-nothing and paying for their initial cost via energy savings in the first year, they're now so expensive that it's not economically-viable to implement them. Alternatively, if they're still economically-viable and DO catch on, the currency begins to deflate more and more, because the gold/silver is being used in these new solar cells to bring us to the next level of energy production (Get us off oil, etc etc). We're being deflated not because of market factors, but because of technological factors. Does this fit into your ideal system?
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
I love how you can't answer any point I raise, but you think that calling me a moron makes you look less stupid.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Ian Shlasko wrote: But like I said in the original post... Transporting metal back and forth in this age of global markets is no longer economical. Hence, we use electronic and paper representations. So what makes it more valuable than just declaring that our currency is now fixed, and that the government no longer has the power to increase or decrease the money supply? Let's go down your list. 1. You're not connecting the dots here. If the currency was fixed, no one would be yelling for metal to backup the currency. 2. Also, we don't have to carry gold or silver around to do commerce, people would be satisfied with paper or electronic medium for exchanges as long as they are pegged to something considered valuable and don't depreciated rapidly (it could be moon rock or whatever). 3. People keep on harping on gold because it's the metal where just about everyone recognized that it has value. Some people might deny gold has value, but you cannot deny the fact that central banks around the world are storing it as reserves. If gold has no value, why would central banks have gold as reserves to back up their fiat currencies? 4. You are asking these questions in the wrong forum. If you really want to understand or get real answers, I'd suggest joining one of the financial/market forums. (Personally, I visit a few of them, myself.)
CodeMonkey928492743 wrote:
If gold has no value, why would central banks have gold as reserves to back up their fiat currencies?
This is the big key. I've asked this before with no good answer in this forum. Because there is no good answer, IMO. To "believe" in paper, or artificial accounts as we have today, is the biggest con of the banks. They base 10% of their worth on paper and the rest on computer accounts. The central banks base 10% of their worth on gold, more on paper and the rest on computer accounts. But we're progressing.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two. -
I love how you can't answer any point I raise, but you think that calling me a moron makes you look less stupid.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
You don't understand basic economics, you don't even understand the difference between inflation and deflation. You don't understand anything.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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CodeMonkey928492743 wrote:
If gold has no value, why would central banks have gold as reserves to back up their fiat currencies?
This is the big key. I've asked this before with no good answer in this forum. Because there is no good answer, IMO. To "believe" in paper, or artificial accounts as we have today, is the biggest con of the banks. They base 10% of their worth on paper and the rest on computer accounts. The central banks base 10% of their worth on gold, more on paper and the rest on computer accounts. But we're progressing.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.What sort of moron would say that gold has no value ? Whoever they are, I hope they have gold, I'll take it.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
"Because that's how it was a hundred years ago"
Great traditions that have stood the test of time are hard to give up. But when we give them up, they can fall either quickly or slowly. This being dependent upon their managed demise.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Why does it have to be based on something physical?
It doesn't. But whatever value it attracts has to be of inherent value. Regulating the value attached to such a "something" requires intervention by some centralised authority otherwise the value of this "something" will mean different things to different people and this something can wildly vary. Defining something as 100% constant is dependent on who or what this constant is. If a constant does not change, how can the variability of the value of goods and labour change. All peoples whether they are individual wage earners or companies wish to acquire more of that something. And as the change in such requirements, so the something becomes that much more scarce so the 100% constant in many ways is a meaningless value. To retain that 100% constant in that scenario would require deflationary pressures to counter the effect of changing prices and changing workers earnings.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Defining something as 100% constant is dependent on who or what this constant is. If a constant does not change, how can the variability of the value of goods and labour change.
Ah, but the value of gold DOES change, however it is a lot less sporadic than fiat currencies. Gold does get inflated, and it does adjust with the market.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
All peoples whether they are individual wage earners or companies wish to acquire more of that something. And as the change in such requirements, so the something becomes that much more scarce so the 100% constant in many ways is a meaningless value.
Agreed. This is why I contend that we get rid of the Fed, and allow the privatization of money altogether. But this is probably way outside the scope of the thread, and definitely already outside the scope of most thinkers here.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two. -
You don't understand basic economics, you don't even understand the difference between inflation and deflation. You don't understand anything.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You don't understand basic economics, you don't even understand the difference between inflation and deflation. You don't understand anything.
I am not a whiny pussy like you. If I make a simple mistake, I admit it. I can see how when your life is one big mistake, you'd try to hide your failings. That I made a typo does not mean I don't know what inflation is. That you can read and watch youtube does not mean you know anything.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
As in, if we ARE going to use fixed currency, why does it have to be based on gold/silver?
Gold and silver are in limited supply, and cannot be created out of thin air. Gold and silver are stable, unlike platinum, which swings in price depending on how the auto industry is doing (platinum is used in catalytic converters).
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
Gold is used in all sorts of things, too.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Gold is used in all sorts of things, too.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Gold is used in all sorts of things, too.
Gold is stable. The price of gold isn't effected by industry nearly as much as the price of platinum.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Gold has been used in the electronics industry for years and years. The cost of electronic components and the finished product have, over the years, came down in price. Competition does that for you, but where a monopoly exists, prices could soar.
Right, so if gold was suddenly considered currency and increased a hundredfold in value, the costs of these components would skyrocket. I was trying to give a more obvious example of how this could affect technology in general, and vice versa.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
What sort of moron would say that gold has no value ? Whoever they are, I hope they have gold, I'll take it.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
http://www.codeproject.com/Messages/3499399/Re-JOTD-Bernanke-Puzzled-by-Gold-Rally.aspx[^] You didn't say that gold didn't have value, but you definitely didn't answer the question well.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two. -
http://www.codeproject.com/Messages/3499399/Re-JOTD-Bernanke-Puzzled-by-Gold-Rally.aspx[^] You didn't say that gold didn't have value, but you definitely didn't answer the question well.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.I said that gold DOES have value, as do all commodities. That is the truth. You're trying to argue with a straw man here, that's the issue.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Gold is used in all sorts of things, too.
Gold is stable. The price of gold isn't effected by industry nearly as much as the price of platinum.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
Not after you've got your way and made it into the core form of currency
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Gold is used in all sorts of things, too.
Gold is stable. The price of gold isn't effected by industry nearly as much as the price of platinum.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
Using your own example... Before catalytic converters were invented, wasn't platinum stable? Even assuming that gold is stable -now-, who's to say that won't change in a few years when the next "big thing" comes along?
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You don't understand basic economics, you don't even understand the difference between inflation and deflation. You don't understand anything.
I am not a whiny pussy like you. If I make a simple mistake, I admit it. I can see how when your life is one big mistake, you'd try to hide your failings. That I made a typo does not mean I don't know what inflation is. That you can read and watch youtube does not mean you know anything.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
I said if a coin taken out of circulation, its value is transferred to all the other coins in circulation. You asked me "How does that work, they do a poll to ask everyone how much they lost ?" as if some central authority sets the value of the coinage. That is not how it works. The value if the currency is set naturally by the amount of it in circulation. You are a moron.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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I said that gold DOES have value, as do all commodities. That is the truth. You're trying to argue with a straw man here, that's the issue.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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I said that gold DOES have value, as do all commodities. That is the truth. You're trying to argue with a straw man here, that's the issue.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Let me be more precise. Gold has value. We know that. That's not my point. You're saying that if we used gold, then the rich would get richer. If that's true, then you're suggesting that there would be only corporations and no money. Well, you're wrong, cuz you've already got minimum wage laws, welfare, and other such crap that doesn't make sense and is just political pandering. Look. It's nonsense. Gold is just a medium of exchange, just like paper is right now.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.