I didn't realise Mexico could tell the US what to do...
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Distind wrote:
But harassing everyone that the cops assume is Mexican is going to cause issues, and anything less wouldn't qualify as enforcement of the law and could get the cops sued.
As I understand the law, the police officers can only ask for proof of legal status if someone has ALREADY been stopped for an offence and there is probable reason to suspect the person may not be in the United States legally. As a permanent alien resident, I make it a point to carry identification. Also, the state I live in requires proof of status before issueing a driver's license. If I am committing a traffic offence, I don't object to having my status checked... I am here legally. Tim
Right, but Illinois, New Mexico, Utah, and Washington don't require proof of citizenship before they issue driver's licenses, and someone who's stopped for a non-driving offense (Jaywalking, for example), or someone who's just a passenger in a stopped car, won't necessarily have a license on them. So maybe immigrants are already obligated to carry ID (I don't know - I'm third-generation), but this could make things difficult for foreign-looking citizens.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
You are right...you are required to carry your permanent resident card. And, yes, a driver's license would be proof that you are here legally. Just look at what you have to show to get a driver's license. Basically, you have to show that you're a US citizen, or here legally. In Arizona, the list is here: http://mvd.azdot.gov/mvd/formsandpub/viewPDF.asp?lngProductKey=1410&lngFormInfoKey=1410[^] There are a few things that you can use if you're not a US citizen, such as your Permanent Resident/Alien Card, Foreign Passport with US visa, a couple of documents from the US Citizenship and Immigration Services, proof that you're Native American, or here as a student. All of those prove that you're legally in the US. If you're illegally in the US, you can't get a driver's license...even in California, one of the easiest states to live in as an illegal. The California DMV requires you to provide "proof of legal residence". So, yeah, a driver's license would prove you're here legally.
William Winner wrote:
And, yes, a driver's license would be proof that you are here legally.
Except Illinois, New Mexico, Utah, and Washington[^].
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Mexico might have well just declared war on us. They are letting tens of millions of violent Mexican nationals in this country, with an outlaw mindset, and with the idea that the southern states belong to Mexico. Ontop of that our government is encouraging it, because the Mexicans want a communist revolution, and our government wants them to vote and fight against American citizens.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
You, AS ALWAYS, have no idea and just opening your mouth to say something... just go back to your basement, and before you say it, yes I have kissed and rubbed Che's poster, have you done the same with Ron's Paul poster??
I want to die like my grandfather- asleep, not like the passengers in his car, screaming!
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Good info... Just looked up the details[^], and it looks like Illinois, New Mexico, Utah, and Washington don't qualify (Their licenses don't prove citizenship)... Two of those are pretty close, geographically, to Arizona. So if you live in any of those states, and plan on going to/through Arizona, you better carry a passport...
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)In Illinois, you have to provide something showing your SSN, which AFAIK can only be obtained if you're here legally. New Mexico and Washington are the same. Utah requires you to prove your identity and legal/lawful status and your SSN.
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Right, but Illinois, New Mexico, Utah, and Washington don't require proof of citizenship before they issue driver's licenses, and someone who's stopped for a non-driving offense (Jaywalking, for example), or someone who's just a passenger in a stopped car, won't necessarily have a license on them. So maybe immigrants are already obligated to carry ID (I don't know - I'm third-generation), but this could make things difficult for foreign-looking citizens.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Actually, Arizona doesn't require proof of citizenship either. You can get an Arizona driver's license if you're here on a work or student visa and a couple of other categories. The question isn't citizenship though, but whether you're in the country legally. You don't have to be a citizen to be in the country legally.
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Actually, Arizona doesn't require proof of citizenship either. You can get an Arizona driver's license if you're here on a work or student visa and a couple of other categories. The question isn't citizenship though, but whether you're in the country legally. You don't have to be a citizen to be in the country legally.
Sorry, should have been more specific... From the Wikipedia article[^] I've linked a few times in this thread (emphasis added):
According to the Motor Vehicle Division of the Arizona Department of Transportation's "Identification Requirements", the only states that "do not verify lawful presence in the US" are "Illinois, New Mexico, Utah, and Washington (Washington verifies only for credentials labeled as 'Enhanced')"
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
In Illinois, you have to provide something showing your SSN, which AFAIK can only be obtained if you're here legally. New Mexico and Washington are the same. Utah requires you to prove your identity and legal/lawful status and your SSN.
Well, according to the the reference[^] behind that part of the article, Arizona doesn't consider them adequate. All that matters is whether the cop who pulls you over is going to accept that license as proof.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Sorry, should have been more specific... From the Wikipedia article[^] I've linked a few times in this thread (emphasis added):
According to the Motor Vehicle Division of the Arizona Department of Transportation's "Identification Requirements", the only states that "do not verify lawful presence in the US" are "Illinois, New Mexico, Utah, and Washington (Washington verifies only for credentials labeled as 'Enhanced')"
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)yeah...well, that wikipedia article is incorrect. If says that the Arizona DOT says that, but the links it provides do not say that. I also am just telling you what each of the states themselves say. Check out these sites: Washingtong DOL[^] Using that list, you can't get a Washington Driver's license without being a legal resident. Illinois[^] Group C requires proof of SSN New Mexico[^] Under proof of indentification number, there are a couple of options and if you were able to get a federally regulated financial institution to write you a letter and had a Canada driver's license, you could get one without SSN. Utah[^] Note: it says everyone will be required to show legal/lawful presence. Anyone can edit wikipedia...just check the page now.
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Mexico joins Arizona immigration lawsuit[^]. Looks like Arizona will have to secede from the union to protect itself... :-)
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
This is a problem that can't be explained in a very simple way... this is going to be a long post I'm mexican and I live in the US legally (H1B visa) and I totally support the law, why? many would ask... well, first, the mexican government has no right to say what's legal or illegal in the US, they can do it in Mexico, but not here, but why are they doing it? first, is because after oil income, the fees they charge for receiving money from the US is the second largest income the gov't has, so they don't want to lose that income. second, elections are coming very soon, so the current party in power wants to get as many votes as possible from the people that feel "offended" by this law, that are many, because that stupid feeling and nationalism that those states were once part of Mexico and they belong to us, that happened in the past, was it right or wrong doesn't matter, is something that can't be changed these days, so we, as mexicans (or they), need to get over it and move forward, it's like the british feel they have the right to receive taxes from the US because the US once was a british colony, that's just stupid. third, is because the mexican gov't uses this illegal immigration (and at some point supports it) to hide its own failures as a government, they mexican government hasn't been able to provide the opportunities to the citizens to get well paid jobs for example, do you know what's the minimum wage in Mexico? 4 USD/day, while in the US you get 5USD/hour (at least), in less than 1 week these people is making more than what they can make in Mexico in 1 month. Also, we need to understand the other side, the american side, americans are simply tired of the illegal immigration, it's not racism, everything is related to money, they're tired of paying, you have in Arizona around 400,000 illegals, that they work, but how many pay taxes? and if they pay taxes, how many steal identities (SSN, ID's etc) to get higher salaries? Illegals DEMAND education for their children, US citizens or not, well, education costs money, how do they expect to have some paying taxes (legal resident and citizens) to get schools working, while they're not paying them? The tuition cost for public schools in the US is somewhere around 6000/child/year, imagine an illegal that has 3 or 4 children, just the costs to educate those children all the way to high school is 72,000 each!!! now multiply that by 3, $216,000 USD for a family of 5 (mom, dad, 3 kids), now multiply that by lets say 800,000 children (2 for each illeg
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This is a problem that can't be explained in a very simple way... this is going to be a long post I'm mexican and I live in the US legally (H1B visa) and I totally support the law, why? many would ask... well, first, the mexican government has no right to say what's legal or illegal in the US, they can do it in Mexico, but not here, but why are they doing it? first, is because after oil income, the fees they charge for receiving money from the US is the second largest income the gov't has, so they don't want to lose that income. second, elections are coming very soon, so the current party in power wants to get as many votes as possible from the people that feel "offended" by this law, that are many, because that stupid feeling and nationalism that those states were once part of Mexico and they belong to us, that happened in the past, was it right or wrong doesn't matter, is something that can't be changed these days, so we, as mexicans (or they), need to get over it and move forward, it's like the british feel they have the right to receive taxes from the US because the US once was a british colony, that's just stupid. third, is because the mexican gov't uses this illegal immigration (and at some point supports it) to hide its own failures as a government, they mexican government hasn't been able to provide the opportunities to the citizens to get well paid jobs for example, do you know what's the minimum wage in Mexico? 4 USD/day, while in the US you get 5USD/hour (at least), in less than 1 week these people is making more than what they can make in Mexico in 1 month. Also, we need to understand the other side, the american side, americans are simply tired of the illegal immigration, it's not racism, everything is related to money, they're tired of paying, you have in Arizona around 400,000 illegals, that they work, but how many pay taxes? and if they pay taxes, how many steal identities (SSN, ID's etc) to get higher salaries? Illegals DEMAND education for their children, US citizens or not, well, education costs money, how do they expect to have some paying taxes (legal resident and citizens) to get schools working, while they're not paying them? The tuition cost for public schools in the US is somewhere around 6000/child/year, imagine an illegal that has 3 or 4 children, just the costs to educate those children all the way to high school is 72,000 each!!! now multiply that by 3, $216,000 USD for a family of 5 (mom, dad, 3 kids), now multiply that by lets say 800,000 children (2 for each illeg
Totally agree. I live in California and health care costs for illegals are massive. And, yes, there are a high number of illegals around here that drive all the time. (Of course, in my area, there are a large number of legal residents who drive without licenses or have been convicted of multiple, in some cases 13+, DUIs and are still on the road. So, that problem isn't limited to illegals.) I agree with the law and I don't see how Arizona can't say something that the federal government already says, "That people here illegally are here illegally"!
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This is a problem that can't be explained in a very simple way... this is going to be a long post I'm mexican and I live in the US legally (H1B visa) and I totally support the law, why? many would ask... well, first, the mexican government has no right to say what's legal or illegal in the US, they can do it in Mexico, but not here, but why are they doing it? first, is because after oil income, the fees they charge for receiving money from the US is the second largest income the gov't has, so they don't want to lose that income. second, elections are coming very soon, so the current party in power wants to get as many votes as possible from the people that feel "offended" by this law, that are many, because that stupid feeling and nationalism that those states were once part of Mexico and they belong to us, that happened in the past, was it right or wrong doesn't matter, is something that can't be changed these days, so we, as mexicans (or they), need to get over it and move forward, it's like the british feel they have the right to receive taxes from the US because the US once was a british colony, that's just stupid. third, is because the mexican gov't uses this illegal immigration (and at some point supports it) to hide its own failures as a government, they mexican government hasn't been able to provide the opportunities to the citizens to get well paid jobs for example, do you know what's the minimum wage in Mexico? 4 USD/day, while in the US you get 5USD/hour (at least), in less than 1 week these people is making more than what they can make in Mexico in 1 month. Also, we need to understand the other side, the american side, americans are simply tired of the illegal immigration, it's not racism, everything is related to money, they're tired of paying, you have in Arizona around 400,000 illegals, that they work, but how many pay taxes? and if they pay taxes, how many steal identities (SSN, ID's etc) to get higher salaries? Illegals DEMAND education for their children, US citizens or not, well, education costs money, how do they expect to have some paying taxes (legal resident and citizens) to get schools working, while they're not paying them? The tuition cost for public schools in the US is somewhere around 6000/child/year, imagine an illegal that has 3 or 4 children, just the costs to educate those children all the way to high school is 72,000 each!!! now multiply that by 3, $216,000 USD for a family of 5 (mom, dad, 3 kids), now multiply that by lets say 800,000 children (2 for each illeg
Gonzoox wrote:
The tuition cost for public schools in the US is somewhere around 6000/child/year, imagine an illegal that has 3 or 4 children, just the costs to educate those children all the way to high school is 72,000 each!!! now multiply that by 3, $216,000 USD for a family of 5 (mom, dad, 3 kids), now multiply that by lets say 800,000 children (2 for each illegal in Arizona), a total of 57,600,000,000, 57.6 billion USD to educate them, while their parents pay ZERO taxes!!! and that is just Arizona. (NOTE: I don't have the actual numbers of how many children they have or are attending school)
When speaking about school costs, one should know how schools are funded. The vast majority of the funding of a school system is local taxes. Property taxes along with sales taxes do most of the work here. Illegals rent property. The owner pays taxes with the money paid by the renters. Sales taxes are done on any good bought at a store. They use local option taxes to fund projects, build new buildings, and pay for stuff the normal yearly budget can't handle. These are voted on. Property taxes are they major source of funding here though. The other part is from the state education fund and federal grants. This is paid by sales taxes, income taxes, and payroll taxes. Illegals pay very little in these areas. This much is true and the basis for this constant belief that illegals pay nothing, which is wrong. While you were saying they pay no taxes, the truth is they pay around 50-80% of the taxes others pay for the same system. Yes, they are not paying their fair share, but it isn't anywhere near as bad as this was made out to be. They are not a $57billion drain on Arizona. They are likely a LOT less. I'm not going to say the rest is right, wrong, or whatever, I am just pointing out that these numbers are repeated a lot and are wrong.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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Distind wrote:
But harassing everyone that the cops assume is Mexican is going to cause issues
I hadn't realized that only Mexicans could be illegal aliens. Silly me: I thought it was anyone who either had no visa or overstayed. In any case what is the big deal? So a cop asks to see your papers. If you have them then no problem. If you don't then serves you right: after all, you are committing a crime even if the Federal government have no desire to prosecute.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
Have you got your passport or birth certificate on you? You need to go back to what ever country you came from! I'm for the law, but you picked a bad argument. ------------------------------------------------- mod Sorry, I had not read further, I see you have had the issue pointed out.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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In Illinois, you have to provide something showing your SSN, which AFAIK can only be obtained if you're here legally. New Mexico and Washington are the same. Utah requires you to prove your identity and legal/lawful status and your SSN.
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A driver's license is proof of legal residence. AFAIK, every state requires you to provide proof of legal residence in order to obtain a driver's license. That does include if you're here on a work visa, student visa, etc...but those people are here legally, so that still counts.
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If I'm here on a work visa, do I get a SSN so I can pay taxes? If I do, it never expires, even when my visa does.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
Yes, you would get a SSN. So, if you were here legally and then stayed past your visa, there may be a couple of states you could get a license...though I would imagine most don't start out with work visas. There are loopholes in any system...
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But they are only here legally until the visa expires. Do drivers licenses expiration date get tied to the visa date?
Opacity, the new Transparency.
I have no idea...I would hope that it expires when their visa expires.
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I have no idea...I would hope that it expires when their visa expires.
Driver's licenses are valid until the day your Visa expires. In order to get an extension (like say you had applied for a work Visa after being here on a student Visa) you have to show documentation that indicates a hearing is being done. The new license is only valid until your hearing date and you need to go in with the documentation showing the decision in order to extend it further. Most states did this anyway, but Real ID has made most of these common sense moves mandatory.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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yeah...well, that wikipedia article is incorrect. If says that the Arizona DOT says that, but the links it provides do not say that. I also am just telling you what each of the states themselves say. Check out these sites: Washingtong DOL[^] Using that list, you can't get a Washington Driver's license without being a legal resident. Illinois[^] Group C requires proof of SSN New Mexico[^] Under proof of indentification number, there are a couple of options and if you were able to get a federally regulated financial institution to write you a letter and had a Canada driver's license, you could get one without SSN. Utah[^] Note: it says everyone will be required to show legal/lawful presence. Anyone can edit wikipedia...just check the page now.
Hence my other post[^] in this thread... Look at the document it links to (Part of what you took out of Wikipedia). Arizona doesn't consider licenses from those four states to be proof of lawful residence. Actually, the document (Application for an Arizona license) just says "per Arizona law", so for definite proof, we'd have to hunt down the text of the actual law it refers to... I don't care enough about this issue to do that :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Gonzoox wrote:
The tuition cost for public schools in the US is somewhere around 6000/child/year, imagine an illegal that has 3 or 4 children, just the costs to educate those children all the way to high school is 72,000 each!!! now multiply that by 3, $216,000 USD for a family of 5 (mom, dad, 3 kids), now multiply that by lets say 800,000 children (2 for each illegal in Arizona), a total of 57,600,000,000, 57.6 billion USD to educate them, while their parents pay ZERO taxes!!! and that is just Arizona. (NOTE: I don't have the actual numbers of how many children they have or are attending school)
When speaking about school costs, one should know how schools are funded. The vast majority of the funding of a school system is local taxes. Property taxes along with sales taxes do most of the work here. Illegals rent property. The owner pays taxes with the money paid by the renters. Sales taxes are done on any good bought at a store. They use local option taxes to fund projects, build new buildings, and pay for stuff the normal yearly budget can't handle. These are voted on. Property taxes are they major source of funding here though. The other part is from the state education fund and federal grants. This is paid by sales taxes, income taxes, and payroll taxes. Illegals pay very little in these areas. This much is true and the basis for this constant belief that illegals pay nothing, which is wrong. While you were saying they pay no taxes, the truth is they pay around 50-80% of the taxes others pay for the same system. Yes, they are not paying their fair share, but it isn't anywhere near as bad as this was made out to be. They are not a $57billion drain on Arizona. They are likely a LOT less. I'm not going to say the rest is right, wrong, or whatever, I am just pointing out that these numbers are repeated a lot and are wrong.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
Just before, remember that I stated I'm mexican OK, let me understand this, I make 100,000/year, I end up paying around 35,000 in income taxes, plus the 7.75% sales tax I need to pay, so actually they're taking around 42,000 out of me every year on taxes, plus property taxes, plus other things I need to pay to the government, if this illegal is earning the same, he's not paying the federal income taxes just for a start, so that means he's only paying 7,750 USD in taxes, I don't see where the 50% is... the 50% would be around 21K And when I said 56 billion I was making numbers like I said without knowing how many of the kids that go to school are from illegals, but here's another story, did you know that in a small town next to the border, little mexicans were crossing every day the border to study in american schools, not only one or two, more like 150 kids, and they and their parents live in Mexico, so if they pay taxes they don't do it to the US, why they feel they have the right to cross the border, abuse the american education system and get away with murder? 150 kids multiplied by 6 thousand and something is around 1 mill every year!!! who is paying that million?? Arizona residents!!! What I was trying to point out, is that the mexican government is acting stupid for trying this, they have more problems to care about in Mexico than trying to tell Arizona or the US how to do things, the immigration laws in Mexico are way worse than the american laws, mexican agents kill hundreds of illegal immigrants that enter the country from the south border, and they're trying to tell the US how bad and evil they are? when they're worse than here? if you can read spanish I can point you to articles about central americans getting killed by the mexican immigration police or worse And also, i was trying to point out, that if this is happening is because these immigrants where asking for it to happen, they made sure to fed up legal residents and americans for not doing things right, when have you heard the chinese gov't complaining? or the vietnamese? or the english? because when chinese get to the country try to learn english, try to do things right, start a business (usually food), what mexicans do? talk to me in spanish, pay me but I don't want to pay taxes, give my kids education, I want health care, well, that's not how things work in the US, in Mexico health care is for free, not here So as I say, they are just starting to harvest their own ignorance...
I want to die like my grandfat
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isnt that exactly what the US did to get these states in the first place?
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start