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  4. This is fantastic stuff, truly epic.

This is fantastic stuff, truly epic.

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved The Back Room
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  • L Lost User

    Ian Shlasko wrote:

    Did you read the rest of the sentence, or just gravitate toward a few words you can argue against?

    Ian Shlasko wrote:

    As in, political issues are tackled so slowly that by the time we have any sort of politically-accepted answer, so much time will have passed that the prediction would have already manifested itself.

    If thats what you meant then why not write it rather than bitch about it later. I am not psychic, I cant read your meanings, only your words.

    Ian Shlasko wrote:

    Sure, every organism changes its environment, but show me one other species that has changed it even CLOSE to as much as humanity

    Rabbits in Australia (they are a plague). Bees. Without them you wouldnt have flowers. And I read somewhere the total mass of termite nests outweighs all mans constructions. Fact is energy is abundant, so are resources, and mankinds population in the developed countries has stabilised. CO2 is good for plants and there is no evidence at all that it causes warming, only a suspicion. So all in all, whats the big deal, or are you just down on humanity like so many other environmentalists (and other religious orders)?

    Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

    D Offline
    D Offline
    Distind
    wrote on last edited by
    #48

    fat_boy wrote:

    CO2 is good for plants and there is no evidence at all that it causes warming, only a suspicion

    Hokay, this set by bullshit alarm off with the phrasing. CO2 traps heat, as such an increased concentration of it will capture more heat. The debated point is just how much of a concentration difference will effect the earth as a whole, or how else the potentially localized trapped heat may alter local, or even global, climates. Say for instance a magical sum of CO2 gets trapped over the glaciers, they all melt, now take two guesses at how screw much of humanity is. Now, the questions are, can it get trapped there, what's the magical sum, and how the bloody hell can we keep that from ever happening. This is pretty much the worst case scenario, second would be what the magical quantity of CO2 it would take before we manage to give humanity a collective case of heatstroke, which would be the wet bulb scenario you were ranting about a few weeks back. From what I've seen we don't know if the first is possible, or how much CO2 would be required in either case. Personally I'd rather not find out by trial and error. I'd rather my kids didn't either. I'd vastly prefer it if people would shut the fuck up and let the actual scientists figure out just how screwed we could make ourselves(I'm including Al Gore in the shut the fuck up group btw), and try to explore ways to keep that from happening.

    L 1 Reply Last reply
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    • I Ian Shlasko

      What, this[^]!? Do you just believe EVERY conspiracy theory out there, no matter how daft, or is there a selection process?

      Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
      Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)

      P Offline
      P Offline
      pelnor
      wrote on last edited by
      #49

      Ian Shlasko wrote:

      believe EVERY conspiracy theory out there

      That's the problem with conspiracy theories. If you don't believe them all you might miss the one that was actually out to get you. :laugh:

      Latest toys built for fun: 3D gravity simulation using xbap
      full size Google image search.

      1 Reply Last reply
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      • D Dalek Dave

        Good job too as he was British Aristocracy who disliked America and it's violence, both domestic and as part of it's foreign policy. Philospher, Logician, Mathematician and Linguist. Also won the Nobel Prize. Read before talking bollocks.

        ------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave

        C Offline
        C Offline
        CaptainSeeSharp
        wrote on last edited by
        #50

        Disliked it's violence? Disliked it so much he calls for putting sterialents in the water supply and making people so dumb and domesticated that they obey any authority? That sounds incredibly violent to me.

        Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]

        L 1 Reply Last reply
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        • I Ian Shlasko

          fat_boy wrote:

          Rabbits in Australia (they are a plague). Bees. Without them you wouldnt have flowers. And I read somewhere the total mass of termite nests outweighs all mans constructions.

          These things haven't changed in thousands of years (More, but let's keep it simple)... Look at what the human race has done in that time... Forests leveled, air pollution, damaged ozone, dammed rivers, oil spills... This is obvious stuff, and I could go on and on...

          fat_boy wrote:

          act is energy is abundant, so are resources, and mankinds population in the developed countries has stabilised. CO2 is good for plants and there is no evidence at all that it causes warming, only a suspicion.

          Here you go again... We've been through these arguments before, and I'm not going to start them up yet again, as when it comes to this issue, you "debate" just like CSS... You downplay any facts you don't like, and base your position on elementary speculation, claiming yourself as an "expert" because you took a few physics courses.

          fat_boy wrote:

          So all in all, whats the big deal, or are you just down on humanity like so many other environmentalists (and other religious orders)?

          And here's that CSS-style argument again... Anyone who isn't firmly on your side must be all the way on the other side. I've made my position on these issues quite clear, but since you're just ignoring everything I say anyway, aside from cherry-picking a couple words from each sentence that you can misinterpret, I won't bother repeating myself.

          Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
          Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)

          L Offline
          L Offline
          Lost User
          wrote on last edited by
          #51

          Ian Shlasko wrote:

          These things haven't changed in thousands of years (More, but let's keep it simple)...

          Bingo! You just got caught out being ignorant. Rabbits were introduced to Australia a few centuries ago.

          Ian Shlasko wrote:

          Forests leveled

          Tunguska.

          Ian Shlasko wrote:

          air pollution

          Natural fires.

          Ian Shlasko wrote:

          air pollution

          Ditto,

          Ian Shlasko wrote:

          damaged ozone

          And when we banned CFCs etc, the effect on the ozone hole was...? (Yepmm fuck all) So did we really damage it or is ti natural?

          Ian Shlasko wrote:

          oil spills.

          Los Anggeles tar pits. Totally natural oil spil.

          Ian Shlasko wrote:

          I could go on and on...

          Please do, refuting your immature arguments is mildly ammusing.

          Ian Shlasko wrote:

          We've been through these arguments before

          And I proved all of them.

          Ian Shlasko wrote:

          I won't bother repeating myself.

          And yet you do, without adding anything of substance to your debate.

          Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

          I 1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • L Lost User

            And since mankind lives in temperatures ranging form -40 to +50 I doubt there is little to fear from a few degrees.

            Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

            W Offline
            W Offline
            William Winner
            wrote on last edited by
            #52

            So here's a question...what would happen to the earth if temperature's went up 5 degrees Celsius (I'm assuming you meant Celsius, though like only a pseudo-scientist could, you left it off...in fact you didn't even say degrees this time, so maybe you think mankind survives in -40 to +50 Kelvin)? Would more of the ocean's ice melt? If so, what effect would that have? Would the ocean temperatures also go up? If so, what effect would that have? How would an increase in global temperature affect the weather patterns? Would there be more rain, less rain, more rain in some areas, less rain in some areas, less snow leading to less snow melt (many Californian's water supply is almost wholly depended on snow melt). If any of that were to happen, what other effects would that have? Simply saying that because man can live in a wide temperature range, therefore a change in temperature wouldn't be a problem is simplistic and exposes your ignorance. Aren't there more things to consider than just whether man keels over immediately in 125 degree F heat? Surely you have to admit that man's survival doesn't rely solely on whether he can live at a given temperature...

            L 1 Reply Last reply
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            • D Distind

              fat_boy wrote:

              CO2 is good for plants and there is no evidence at all that it causes warming, only a suspicion

              Hokay, this set by bullshit alarm off with the phrasing. CO2 traps heat, as such an increased concentration of it will capture more heat. The debated point is just how much of a concentration difference will effect the earth as a whole, or how else the potentially localized trapped heat may alter local, or even global, climates. Say for instance a magical sum of CO2 gets trapped over the glaciers, they all melt, now take two guesses at how screw much of humanity is. Now, the questions are, can it get trapped there, what's the magical sum, and how the bloody hell can we keep that from ever happening. This is pretty much the worst case scenario, second would be what the magical quantity of CO2 it would take before we manage to give humanity a collective case of heatstroke, which would be the wet bulb scenario you were ranting about a few weeks back. From what I've seen we don't know if the first is possible, or how much CO2 would be required in either case. Personally I'd rather not find out by trial and error. I'd rather my kids didn't either. I'd vastly prefer it if people would shut the fuck up and let the actual scientists figure out just how screwed we could make ourselves(I'm including Al Gore in the shut the fuck up group btw), and try to explore ways to keep that from happening.

              L Offline
              L Offline
              Lost User
              wrote on last edited by
              #53

              Distind wrote:

              CO2 traps heat

              Really? How? Go on, tell us how CO2 traps heat. What is it a mirror? An insulating blanket? Or is it a heat sink? How much heat can it hold? Whats its specific heat capacity?

              Distind wrote:

              I'd rather not find out by trial and error. I'd rather my kids didn't either

              So since the temperature has fallen in the last 10000 years by around 4 degrees while CO2 has increased do you not consider that as fairly convincing evidence that it isnt causing warming, or if it is, that any warming might be beneficial in preventing us form entering a new ice age? Any I refer you to Phil Jones who stated recently that the last warming period, ie 1980 to 1995 is stastically indiferent to the previous 3 (going back into the 19th century) He is a scientist, he was also head of CRU that prepard data for the IPCC. I might also refer you to Lindzen and Christy if you want to know what scientists think.

              Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

              J G 2 Replies Last reply
              0
              • W William Winner

                So here's a question...what would happen to the earth if temperature's went up 5 degrees Celsius (I'm assuming you meant Celsius, though like only a pseudo-scientist could, you left it off...in fact you didn't even say degrees this time, so maybe you think mankind survives in -40 to +50 Kelvin)? Would more of the ocean's ice melt? If so, what effect would that have? Would the ocean temperatures also go up? If so, what effect would that have? How would an increase in global temperature affect the weather patterns? Would there be more rain, less rain, more rain in some areas, less rain in some areas, less snow leading to less snow melt (many Californian's water supply is almost wholly depended on snow melt). If any of that were to happen, what other effects would that have? Simply saying that because man can live in a wide temperature range, therefore a change in temperature wouldn't be a problem is simplistic and exposes your ignorance. Aren't there more things to consider than just whether man keels over immediately in 125 degree F heat? Surely you have to admit that man's survival doesn't rely solely on whether he can live at a given temperature...

                L Offline
                L Offline
                Lost User
                wrote on last edited by
                #54

                William Winner wrote:

                what would happen to the earth if temperature's went up 5 degrees Celsius

                BAck to what it was 10000 years ago (vostok and greenland ice core data).

                William Winner wrote:

                Would more of the ocean's ice melt? If so, what effect would that have?

                Yes. The same effect as at the end of the ice age. Coastal flooding. (Which man survived wuite happily) Of course I wasnt suggesting that man will easilly face such an extreme of temperature, but he will adapt. He has already to these extremes.

                Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

                R 1 Reply Last reply
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                • L Lost User

                  Ian Shlasko wrote:

                  These things haven't changed in thousands of years (More, but let's keep it simple)...

                  Bingo! You just got caught out being ignorant. Rabbits were introduced to Australia a few centuries ago.

                  Ian Shlasko wrote:

                  Forests leveled

                  Tunguska.

                  Ian Shlasko wrote:

                  air pollution

                  Natural fires.

                  Ian Shlasko wrote:

                  air pollution

                  Ditto,

                  Ian Shlasko wrote:

                  damaged ozone

                  And when we banned CFCs etc, the effect on the ozone hole was...? (Yepmm fuck all) So did we really damage it or is ti natural?

                  Ian Shlasko wrote:

                  oil spills.

                  Los Anggeles tar pits. Totally natural oil spil.

                  Ian Shlasko wrote:

                  I could go on and on...

                  Please do, refuting your immature arguments is mildly ammusing.

                  Ian Shlasko wrote:

                  We've been through these arguments before

                  And I proved all of them.

                  Ian Shlasko wrote:

                  I won't bother repeating myself.

                  And yet you do, without adding anything of substance to your debate.

                  Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

                  I Offline
                  I Offline
                  Ian Shlasko
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #55

                  fat_boy wrote:

                  Rabbits were introduced to Australia a few centuries ago.

                  Really... And did they swim there, or did humans bring them over?

                  fat_boy wrote:

                  Tunguska.

                  Again with your binary logic... Farming and logging operations bulldoze forests on a regular basis, so you point to one of a small number of times in recorded history that it happened naturally.

                  fat_boy wrote:

                  Natural fires.

                  Again, a matter of degree. Just look at the differences in air quality between urban and rural areas.

                  fat_boy wrote:

                  And when we banned CFCs etc, the effect on the ozone hole was...? (Yepmm f*** all) So did we really damage it or is ti natural?

                  The attribution of CFCs to ozone depletion isn't even a controversy... Are you just going to make this up as you go along?

                  fat_boy wrote:

                  Los Anggeles tar pits. Totally natural oil spil.

                  Yet again... One of a few natural examples, when the human race does it on a frequent basis.

                  Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
                  Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)

                  L 2 Replies Last reply
                  0
                  • C CaptainSeeSharp

                    Disliked it's violence? Disliked it so much he calls for putting sterialents in the water supply and making people so dumb and domesticated that they obey any authority? That sounds incredibly violent to me.

                    Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]

                    L Offline
                    L Offline
                    Lost User
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #56

                    CaptainSeeSharp wrote:

                    Disliked it so much he calls for putting sterialents in the water supply and making people so dumb and domesticated that they obey any authority?

                    First, you post Russell as a great visionary, warning us of the dangers of authoritarian societies, the mental moulding of the young physiologically (e.g., fluorinated water) and psychologically. Then I completely change your view of him simply by posting a couple of quotes where he appears to be supporting an authoritarian world government with genocidal tendencies. And what is missing from these quotes? Context, you great lummox! You have never read the books from which the quotes were taken. Consequently, you are unaware of whether he is proscribing or prescribing these scenarios. I have manipulated you just as Uncle Al and his ilk do. See how easy it is? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

                    Bob Emmett New Eugenicist - The weekly magazine for intelligent parenting. Published by the New World Order Press.

                    1 Reply Last reply
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                    • L Lost User

                      Distind wrote:

                      CO2 traps heat

                      Really? How? Go on, tell us how CO2 traps heat. What is it a mirror? An insulating blanket? Or is it a heat sink? How much heat can it hold? Whats its specific heat capacity?

                      Distind wrote:

                      I'd rather not find out by trial and error. I'd rather my kids didn't either

                      So since the temperature has fallen in the last 10000 years by around 4 degrees while CO2 has increased do you not consider that as fairly convincing evidence that it isnt causing warming, or if it is, that any warming might be beneficial in preventing us form entering a new ice age? Any I refer you to Phil Jones who stated recently that the last warming period, ie 1980 to 1995 is stastically indiferent to the previous 3 (going back into the 19th century) He is a scientist, he was also head of CRU that prepard data for the IPCC. I might also refer you to Lindzen and Christy if you want to know what scientists think.

                      Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

                      J Offline
                      J Offline
                      James L Thomson
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #57

                      fat_boy wrote:

                      Really? How? Go on, tell us how CO2 traps heat. What is it a mirror? An insulating blanket? Or is it a heat sink? How much heat can it hold? Whats its specific heat capacity?

                      Are you claiming that CO2 is not a greenhouse gas, or are you just being a pedantic jack***?

                      L 1 Reply Last reply
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                      • L Lost User

                        Distind wrote:

                        CO2 traps heat

                        Really? How? Go on, tell us how CO2 traps heat. What is it a mirror? An insulating blanket? Or is it a heat sink? How much heat can it hold? Whats its specific heat capacity?

                        Distind wrote:

                        I'd rather not find out by trial and error. I'd rather my kids didn't either

                        So since the temperature has fallen in the last 10000 years by around 4 degrees while CO2 has increased do you not consider that as fairly convincing evidence that it isnt causing warming, or if it is, that any warming might be beneficial in preventing us form entering a new ice age? Any I refer you to Phil Jones who stated recently that the last warming period, ie 1980 to 1995 is stastically indiferent to the previous 3 (going back into the 19th century) He is a scientist, he was also head of CRU that prepard data for the IPCC. I might also refer you to Lindzen and Christy if you want to know what scientists think.

                        Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

                        G Offline
                        G Offline
                        Gonzoox
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #58

                        fat_boy wrote:

                        Really? How? Go on, tell us how CO2 traps heat. What is it a mirror? An insulating blanket? Or is it a heat sink? How much heat can it hold? Whats its specific heat capacity?

                        "Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas." Wikipedia - Carbon dioxide next question, what's a greenhouse gas? Greenhouse gases are gases in an atmosphere that absorb and emit radiation within the thermal infrared range. This process is the fundamental cause of the greenhouse effect. Wikipedia - Greenhouse gas next question, what's the greenhouse effect? The greenhouse effect is a process by which radiative energy leaving a planetary surface is absorbed by some atmospheric gases, called greenhouse gases. Wikipedia - Greenhouse effect You can read more in each article that is very interesting that can support your theories, but for now, that will explain to you about CO2 and the greenhouse effect

                        I want to die like my grandfather- asleep, not like the passengers in his car, screaming!

                        L 1 Reply Last reply
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                        • I Ian Shlasko

                          fat_boy wrote:

                          Rabbits were introduced to Australia a few centuries ago.

                          Really... And did they swim there, or did humans bring them over?

                          fat_boy wrote:

                          Tunguska.

                          Again with your binary logic... Farming and logging operations bulldoze forests on a regular basis, so you point to one of a small number of times in recorded history that it happened naturally.

                          fat_boy wrote:

                          Natural fires.

                          Again, a matter of degree. Just look at the differences in air quality between urban and rural areas.

                          fat_boy wrote:

                          And when we banned CFCs etc, the effect on the ozone hole was...? (Yepmm f*** all) So did we really damage it or is ti natural?

                          The attribution of CFCs to ozone depletion isn't even a controversy... Are you just going to make this up as you go along?

                          fat_boy wrote:

                          Los Anggeles tar pits. Totally natural oil spil.

                          Yet again... One of a few natural examples, when the human race does it on a frequent basis.

                          Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
                          Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)

                          L Offline
                          L Offline
                          Lost User
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #59

                          Ian Shlasko wrote:

                          Really... And did they swim there, or did humans bring them over?

                          Just won a bet! I knew you would respond with that! OK, how about locust swarms? They strip the land bare all on their own without any help from man. Actually Beavers have quite a big impact on their environment by damming rivers. This has caused entirely different ecosystems to form. And, byu the way, if you are a pro-native chap, then the north american native had a huge impact on the environment. Check out their forest and game management. Anyway, this is about whether man has a bigger effect on the environment than other species. Of course he does. But so what? Man uses the earths natural materials for buildings. Principly houses, but all kinds of stuff. Why is it a big problem if man takes a load of rock thats lying around, or even breaks it free, and rearranges it into a house shaped object with the help of some trees, and some lime and sand? So an ant, termite, bird, ape, otter, beaver, and many other createures do the same, but to a lesser degree (and only becae they lack intemmigence). So mans only difference to nature is his increased intelligence. And yet you and many others like to make statements such as 'there is no square kilometer of ocean unaffected ny man'. Well there is almost no part of this earth unaffected by an animal in some form or another, why single out man for special attention. Why DONT we have the right to live on, and use, the planet for our own benefit? Of course we need to make sure we dont accidentally dammage it, but lets distinguish very carefully between what is and isnt damaging. And what is and isnt beneficial.

                          Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

                          I 1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • I Ian Shlasko

                            fat_boy wrote:

                            Rabbits were introduced to Australia a few centuries ago.

                            Really... And did they swim there, or did humans bring them over?

                            fat_boy wrote:

                            Tunguska.

                            Again with your binary logic... Farming and logging operations bulldoze forests on a regular basis, so you point to one of a small number of times in recorded history that it happened naturally.

                            fat_boy wrote:

                            Natural fires.

                            Again, a matter of degree. Just look at the differences in air quality between urban and rural areas.

                            fat_boy wrote:

                            And when we banned CFCs etc, the effect on the ozone hole was...? (Yepmm f*** all) So did we really damage it or is ti natural?

                            The attribution of CFCs to ozone depletion isn't even a controversy... Are you just going to make this up as you go along?

                            fat_boy wrote:

                            Los Anggeles tar pits. Totally natural oil spil.

                            Yet again... One of a few natural examples, when the human race does it on a frequent basis.

                            Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
                            Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)

                            L Offline
                            L Offline
                            Lost User
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #60

                            Ian Shlasko wrote:

                            The attribution of CFCs to ozone depletion isn't even a controversy... Are you just going to make this up as you go along?

                            OK, so we have stopped using CFCs for almost 20 years now, so please show us all how much smaller the hole in the ozone layer has become in that time.

                            Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

                            I 1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • J James L Thomson

                              fat_boy wrote:

                              Really? How? Go on, tell us how CO2 traps heat. What is it a mirror? An insulating blanket? Or is it a heat sink? How much heat can it hold? Whats its specific heat capacity?

                              Are you claiming that CO2 is not a greenhouse gas, or are you just being a pedantic jack***?

                              L Offline
                              L Offline
                              Lost User
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #61

                              No, I am not. I want to know how much he really knows about this in order to make statements like 'CO2 traps heat'.

                              Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

                              D 1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • G Gonzoox

                                fat_boy wrote:

                                Really? How? Go on, tell us how CO2 traps heat. What is it a mirror? An insulating blanket? Or is it a heat sink? How much heat can it hold? Whats its specific heat capacity?

                                "Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas." Wikipedia - Carbon dioxide next question, what's a greenhouse gas? Greenhouse gases are gases in an atmosphere that absorb and emit radiation within the thermal infrared range. This process is the fundamental cause of the greenhouse effect. Wikipedia - Greenhouse gas next question, what's the greenhouse effect? The greenhouse effect is a process by which radiative energy leaving a planetary surface is absorbed by some atmospheric gases, called greenhouse gases. Wikipedia - Greenhouse effect You can read more in each article that is very interesting that can support your theories, but for now, that will explain to you about CO2 and the greenhouse effect

                                I want to die like my grandfather- asleep, not like the passengers in his car, screaming!

                                L Offline
                                L Offline
                                Lost User
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #62

                                Gonzoox wrote:

                                "Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas."

                                Sure, but do you know how it absorbs certain frequencies of radiation?

                                Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

                                G 1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • I Ian Shlasko

                                  There are extremists on both sides. At this point, it's just a numbers game... Lots of people are trying to model the trends, and the effects of all the greenhouse gases we're releasing into the atmosphere. No one has a definitive answer yet, and since the issue is becoming more and more political instead of purely scientific, we probably won't have a consensus until it's far too late to change anything. Personally, I don't see how the environment could possibly remain unchanged with all of this industrialization. To me, the question isn't whether things will change, but how and how much. Human extinction in 50 years looks like one hell of an exaggeration, but a global increase of a degree or two by then, coupled with climate shifts in individual regions (Some become warmer, some get cooler, some get wetter, some drier, etc)? Seems plausible, if the numbers hold.

                                  Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
                                  Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)

                                  L Offline
                                  L Offline
                                  Lost User
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #63

                                  Ian Shlasko wrote:

                                  There are extremists on both sides

                                  And yet one of those mentioned is in charge of one of the worlds well used temperature data sets.

                                  Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

                                  I 1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • L Lost User

                                    No, I am not. I want to know how much he really knows about this in order to make statements like 'CO2 traps heat'.

                                    Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

                                    D Offline
                                    D Offline
                                    Distind
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #64

                                    I'd say go ask a real scientist, but you don't seem to give a shit what they have to say either. So here, from a source you might believe, with a surprisingly complete answer: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080109182727AAvuPHC[^]

                                    L 1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • L Lost User

                                      Ian Shlasko wrote:

                                      Really... And did they swim there, or did humans bring them over?

                                      Just won a bet! I knew you would respond with that! OK, how about locust swarms? They strip the land bare all on their own without any help from man. Actually Beavers have quite a big impact on their environment by damming rivers. This has caused entirely different ecosystems to form. And, byu the way, if you are a pro-native chap, then the north american native had a huge impact on the environment. Check out their forest and game management. Anyway, this is about whether man has a bigger effect on the environment than other species. Of course he does. But so what? Man uses the earths natural materials for buildings. Principly houses, but all kinds of stuff. Why is it a big problem if man takes a load of rock thats lying around, or even breaks it free, and rearranges it into a house shaped object with the help of some trees, and some lime and sand? So an ant, termite, bird, ape, otter, beaver, and many other createures do the same, but to a lesser degree (and only becae they lack intemmigence). So mans only difference to nature is his increased intelligence. And yet you and many others like to make statements such as 'there is no square kilometer of ocean unaffected ny man'. Well there is almost no part of this earth unaffected by an animal in some form or another, why single out man for special attention. Why DONT we have the right to live on, and use, the planet for our own benefit? Of course we need to make sure we dont accidentally dammage it, but lets distinguish very carefully between what is and isnt damaging. And what is and isnt beneficial.

                                      Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

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                                      Ian Shlasko
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #65

                                      fat_boy wrote:

                                      OK, how about locust swarms? They strip the land bare all on their own without any help from man. Actually Beavers have quite a big impact on their environment by damming rivers. This has caused entirely different ecosystems to form.

                                      Yep, was waiting for the beavers argument, and that one is valid... But again, none of these change the environment as much as humans.

                                      fat_boy wrote:

                                      And, byu the way, if you are a pro-native chap, then the north american native had a huge impact on the environment. Check out their forest and game management.

                                      They're humans too.

                                      fat_boy wrote:

                                      Anyway, this is about whether man has a bigger effect on the environment than other species. Of course he does. But so what?

                                      Ok, as long as you realize that... You seemed to be disputing that for a while.

                                      fat_boy wrote:

                                      Why DONT we have the right to live on, and use, the planet for our own benefit? Of course we need to make sure we dont accidentally dammage it, but lets distinguish very carefully between what is and isnt damaging. And what is and isnt beneficial.

                                      Hey, we can do whatever the hell we want to this planet, but we have to think of the consequences. We're the only species that has the capability to render this planet inhabitable (At least for us). Don't forget that things that are beneficial for the ENVIRONMENT may not be beneficial to us. And I know you keep making the argument over and over that the human race can adapt to any change... It's true that our technology would be able to sustain us further than we would normally be able to, but there are limits. As I keep saying, we need actual numbers, so we know exactly what effect we're having. Until we have that, I'm in favor of some actions to limit our impact. Sure, cut down on pollution... Switch to renewable energy... These are good things regardless of the greenhouse effect.

                                      Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
                                      Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)

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                                        Ian Shlasko wrote:

                                        The attribution of CFCs to ozone depletion isn't even a controversy... Are you just going to make this up as you go along?

                                        OK, so we have stopped using CFCs for almost 20 years now, so please show us all how much smaller the hole in the ozone layer has become in that time.

                                        Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

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                                        Ian Shlasko
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #66

                                        http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/16/2092527.htm[^]

                                        Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
                                        Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)

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                                          Ian Shlasko wrote:

                                          There are extremists on both sides

                                          And yet one of those mentioned is in charge of one of the worlds well used temperature data sets.

                                          Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription

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                                          Ian Shlasko
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #67

                                          Which are you talking about? The IPCC guys? As far as I can tell, they've been sticking to the numbers, and acting like scientists aside from a little immature behavior that was never meant to be public.

                                          Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
                                          Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)

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