Gotcha
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KaЯl wrote: I could agree on this one, but what about Justice ? What about the people perhaps standing near the bombed car ? I agree with your concern, but I feel that all are responsible for what they allow their country (region) to support to at least some extent. They support harboring these criminals so have taken on that risk. KaЯl wrote: What about a mistake ?? Also agree with your concern here. However other options for my country do not exist other than doing nothing (because we may make a mistake) and just sit back for more of our citizens to be randomly murdered. "We are what we repeatedly do. excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." Aristotle
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: I agree with your concern, but I feel that all are responsible for what they allow their country (region) to support to at least some extent. They support harboring these criminals so have taken on that risk. The citizens of those regions being bombed probably have no idea what is going on and why they're under fire. They work and struggle daily to make barely enough to support themselves and perhaps their families. You think ordinary people would put in the time and effort to harbor terrorists? Terrorists exploit weaknesses in infrastructure, and infrastructure is the responsibility of the government. Go after the governments! Bilal
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: This would not be the case if all others would support bringing terrorist to justice, but that is does not happen, so to defend ones country you are forced into action like this. Amen. Islamic society could end terrorism tomorrow if it really wanted to. Either it does not want to, or its political/social structure is simply too incompetent to deal with the problem. In either case, the U.S. is not answerable to any external political authority to do what we must to avoid being attacked. The rest of the world can help us, get out of our way, or fight with the bad guys, makes me no never mind either way. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Stan Shannon wrote: Islamic society could end terrorism tomorrow if it really wanted to. I see. What Islamic society is this? You seem to think that terrorists are pouring out of some wormhole called the "Islamic society". So you blame all Muslims collectively? We must all be doing our little devilish bit to support terrorism, musn't we? Didn't Bush say this wasn't a war against Islam? But if this is the state of American public opinion then who is he kidding? Bilal
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Stan Shannon wrote: Islamic society could end terrorism tomorrow if it really wanted to. I see. What Islamic society is this? You seem to think that terrorists are pouring out of some wormhole called the "Islamic society". So you blame all Muslims collectively? We must all be doing our little devilish bit to support terrorism, musn't we? Didn't Bush say this wasn't a war against Islam? But if this is the state of American public opinion then who is he kidding? Bilal
Bilal wrote: You seem to think that terrorists are pouring out of some wormhole called the "Islamic society". Aren't they? Bilal wrote: Didn't Bush say this wasn't a war against Islam? But if this is the state of American public opinion then who is he kidding? Being an American, I generally think for myself, and derive my own conclusions from my own observations. I don't really care what Bush or any other American thinks about anything. And yes, I think Islamic society, in general, has some serious problems which it badly needs to deal with. I think the terrorism we are seeing now is a natural out growth of core Islamic principles and beliefs (I'm not necessarily refering to the religion. The problems go far beyond that). You guys need to deal with these issues yourselves - openly and honestly. Blaming everything on the west and the U.S. will not help you. If you don't get it under control and fast, this is going to become a clash of cultures. If it comes to that, Islam will lose and lose big. BTW, I am not impressed by the word "Moderate". A moderate is just a coward waiting to see which side wins. Pick a side. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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Ray Cassick wrote: Besides the fact that you can never 'win' against a terrorist that is willing to die for thier cause, you HAVE to look deeply into what motivates them. Stooping to their level is not the answer. If we continue down that road we become them. Ray Cassick wrote: The problem with this is that they have no due-process. They are not citizens, they are not ruled by our constitution, why should we treat them as such? The US constitution is more than a set of rules for American citizens, it also is a set of ideals that we mean to live up to. Due process is one of these ideals. Ray Cassick wrote: You don't honestly think that if we just pulled back and just decided to ignore every country, and stay out of world politics, that things would get better do you? No. I didn't say these individuals should be ignored. I said they should be captured, tried, convicted. If you read the fine print I also mentioned something about their punishment.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
Mike Mullikin wrote: The US constitution is more than a set of rules for American citizens, it also is a set of ideals that we mean to live up to. Due process is one of these ideals. Again, I agree here. BUT, realizam needs to be brought into the mix. In a prefect world, wheer everyone is govourned buy the same set of rules, ti makes sense to follow the rules. They don't live, nor want to live, by our rules, no matter how good they are. Why should they have the bennifit of them. Yes, yes, I know.... We don't want to become THEM. Mike Mullikin wrote: No. I didn't say these individuals should be ignored. I said they should be captured, tried, convicted. If you read the fine print I also mentioned something about their punishment. The problem with this is that, unless there is an real chance that they could be found not guilty, the entire process of trial would only be looked upon as a sham, and carry no weight with it.
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Ray Cassick wrote: Besides the fact that you can never 'win' against a terrorist that is willing to die for thier cause, you HAVE to look deeply into what motivates them. Stooping to their level is not the answer. If we continue down that road we become them. Ray Cassick wrote: The problem with this is that they have no due-process. They are not citizens, they are not ruled by our constitution, why should we treat them as such? The US constitution is more than a set of rules for American citizens, it also is a set of ideals that we mean to live up to. Due process is one of these ideals. Ray Cassick wrote: You don't honestly think that if we just pulled back and just decided to ignore every country, and stay out of world politics, that things would get better do you? No. I didn't say these individuals should be ignored. I said they should be captured, tried, convicted. If you read the fine print I also mentioned something about their punishment.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
Mike Mullikin wrote: No. I didn't say these individuals should be ignored. I said they should be captured, tried, convicted. For what? To prove what we already knew? To risk American lives trying to capture them? To waste our tax dollars in the courts? To make some lawyers more wealthy? To give these goons a chance to get off on some technicality? No thanks. Mike Mullikin wrote: If you read the fine print I also mentioned something about their punishment. Well, with punishment like you suggest (where we're stooping to their level or below), I say just blast them and go home. Regards, Alvaro
Well done is better than well said. -- Benjamin Franklin
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Mike Mullikin wrote: No. I didn't say these individuals should be ignored. I said they should be captured, tried, convicted. For what? To prove what we already knew? To risk American lives trying to capture them? To waste our tax dollars in the courts? To make some lawyers more wealthy? To give these goons a chance to get off on some technicality? No thanks. Mike Mullikin wrote: If you read the fine print I also mentioned something about their punishment. Well, with punishment like you suggest (where we're stooping to their level or below), I say just blast them and go home. Regards, Alvaro
Well done is better than well said. -- Benjamin Franklin
Alvaro Mendez wrote: For what? To prove what we already knew? To risk American lives trying to capture them? To waste our tax dollars in the courts? To make some lawyers more wealthy? To give these goons a chance to get off on some technicality? No thanks. Slow down and really read what you just wrote and apply it to domestic criminal activity. Do you really want to live in a society that arbitrarily kills people they suspect of crimes without due process? The US is supposed to be above that kind of thing. Our constitution demands it. Don't forget - in this situation, our CIA (an agency that is chartered to gather and deseminate information) is covertly operating in a cooperative country (Yemen) where they targeted and killed suspected terrorists using explosive weaponry. If this would have been our military working in Afghanistan or Iraq then it's a whole other story and I'd be their biggest cheerleader. Alvaro Mendez wrote: Well, with punishment like you suggest (where we're stooping to their level or below)... Our laws and collective morals as a country demand due process - not mercy once convicted.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
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Mike Mullikin wrote: The US constitution is more than a set of rules for American citizens, it also is a set of ideals that we mean to live up to. Due process is one of these ideals. Again, I agree here. BUT, realizam needs to be brought into the mix. In a prefect world, wheer everyone is govourned buy the same set of rules, ti makes sense to follow the rules. They don't live, nor want to live, by our rules, no matter how good they are. Why should they have the bennifit of them. Yes, yes, I know.... We don't want to become THEM. Mike Mullikin wrote: No. I didn't say these individuals should be ignored. I said they should be captured, tried, convicted. If you read the fine print I also mentioned something about their punishment. The problem with this is that, unless there is an real chance that they could be found not guilty, the entire process of trial would only be looked upon as a sham, and carry no weight with it.
Ray Cassick wrote: They don't live, nor want to live, by our rules, no matter how good they are. No, but in this case we are not living by our own rules. Ray Cassick wrote: The problem with this is that, unless there is an real chance that they could be found not guilty, the entire process of trial would only be looked upon as a sham, and carry no weight with it. If they committed crimes against Americans they should be tried by our courts with our rules. Once convicted they get punished by our methods. If the rest of the world doesn't like it or thinks it's a sham they can pound sand. I'm not really too concerned about what the rest of the world thinks of us, but at the end of the day we have to look in the mirror and know we did the right thing. Killing people (outside the scope of a war) without giving them a chance to prove their innocence is wrong no matter how you slice it.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
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Christian Graus wrote: I am saying that errors DO happen OK, Question: Do you allow your police or military to handle weapons? They may make an error and kill someone. Why do you allow this? "We are what we repeatedly do. excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." Aristotle
1. Our police operate within the bounds of our country, and are accountable to authorities within our country 2. When our military is active, they are active in a war zone. This is totally different to the US killing people in other countries, accountable to no-one. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Christian Graus wrote: Basically the USA is a law unto itself in the world arena. A right we've earned. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Stan Shannon wrote: Christian Graus wrote: Basically the USA is a law unto itself in the world arena. A right we've earned. I like you Stan, but the only way I can respond to this is, what a pile of crap. Why is it that Osama Bin Laden is not allowed to rule the world, but George Bush is ? Why is his view of who should die in another country not acceptable, but George Bushes view is ? I'm not saying that your country is killing innocent people, just saying that it seems to me that if they are, there is no way for me to know, and no-one else is getting a say. Imagine if Russia killed an American, on American soil, because they were found guilty by the Russian military of an act against Russia. Would you applaud ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Stan Shannon wrote: Christian Graus wrote: Basically the USA is a law unto itself in the world arena. A right we've earned. I like you Stan, but the only way I can respond to this is, what a pile of crap. Why is it that Osama Bin Laden is not allowed to rule the world, but George Bush is ? Why is his view of who should die in another country not acceptable, but George Bushes view is ? I'm not saying that your country is killing innocent people, just saying that it seems to me that if they are, there is no way for me to know, and no-one else is getting a say. Imagine if Russia killed an American, on American soil, because they were found guilty by the Russian military of an act against Russia. Would you applaud ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
of course there is no excuse. GWB is a dangerous fool and more than half the people in the US who voted on election day 2000 knew this. -c
“losinger is a colorizing text edit control” -- googlism
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Bilal wrote: You seem to think that terrorists are pouring out of some wormhole called the "Islamic society". Aren't they? Bilal wrote: Didn't Bush say this wasn't a war against Islam? But if this is the state of American public opinion then who is he kidding? Being an American, I generally think for myself, and derive my own conclusions from my own observations. I don't really care what Bush or any other American thinks about anything. And yes, I think Islamic society, in general, has some serious problems which it badly needs to deal with. I think the terrorism we are seeing now is a natural out growth of core Islamic principles and beliefs (I'm not necessarily refering to the religion. The problems go far beyond that). You guys need to deal with these issues yourselves - openly and honestly. Blaming everything on the west and the U.S. will not help you. If you don't get it under control and fast, this is going to become a clash of cultures. If it comes to that, Islam will lose and lose big. BTW, I am not impressed by the word "Moderate". A moderate is just a coward waiting to see which side wins. Pick a side. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Stan Shannon wrote: Pick a side. and what are these "sides" ?
“losinger is a colorizing text edit control” -- googlism
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of course there is no excuse. GWB is a dangerous fool and more than half the people in the US who voted on election day 2000 knew this. -c
“losinger is a colorizing text edit control” -- googlism
Does that mean that GWB has two years to bring about the end of the world before he gets voted out ? Or do you think the climate of fear surrounding these terrorist events will mean he will stay in power ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Bilal wrote: You seem to think that terrorists are pouring out of some wormhole called the "Islamic society". Aren't they? Bilal wrote: Didn't Bush say this wasn't a war against Islam? But if this is the state of American public opinion then who is he kidding? Being an American, I generally think for myself, and derive my own conclusions from my own observations. I don't really care what Bush or any other American thinks about anything. And yes, I think Islamic society, in general, has some serious problems which it badly needs to deal with. I think the terrorism we are seeing now is a natural out growth of core Islamic principles and beliefs (I'm not necessarily refering to the religion. The problems go far beyond that). You guys need to deal with these issues yourselves - openly and honestly. Blaming everything on the west and the U.S. will not help you. If you don't get it under control and fast, this is going to become a clash of cultures. If it comes to that, Islam will lose and lose big. BTW, I am not impressed by the word "Moderate". A moderate is just a coward waiting to see which side wins. Pick a side. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Stan Shannon wrote: If it comes to that, Islam will lose and lose big. You reckon ? Have you considered that they outnumber us (i.e. the West) and are willing to die for their cause ? Have you considered that a *proportion* of those Islamic folks living in your country would respond to a religious war by following their god rather than their country ? Or that attempting to contain that problem would only make it worse ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Does that mean that GWB has two years to bring about the end of the world before he gets voted out ? Or do you think the climate of fear surrounding these terrorist events will mean he will stay in power ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
i'd like to think the public will wake up and discover what a dangerous person he is. but i have no faith. -c
“losinger is a colorizing text edit control” -- googlism
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: They support harboring these criminals so have taken on that risk. Do you really think this ?! How a child playing around might be a support of terrorism and deserve to die ? Michael A. Barnhart wrote: However other options for my country do not exist other than doing nothing (because we may make a mistake) and just sit back for more of our citizens to be randomly murdered. I don't think so. If sometimes it's a valid option, it can't be a policy. Violence generates violence, so does hatred. Using terrorist methods changes the user in terrorist as well. The French Army did that during the Algerian Independance War, and the resulting wounds are still there as in our History than in the memories of the soldiers changed in torturers.
Who gives a f*ck If my life sucks ? I just know one day I won't give up Beg For Me/KoЯn
KaЯl wrote: How a child playing around might be a support of terrorism and deserve to die ? I absolutely never said anything like that. The innocent people do not deserve anything like this. All I said is due to the populace accepting and tolerating the situation, that they do create risks for them selves. I tolerate drinking in my society and assume the risk that a drunk kills me on the highway. "We are what we repeatedly do. excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." Aristotle
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1. Our police operate within the bounds of our country, and are accountable to authorities within our country 2. When our military is active, they are active in a war zone. This is totally different to the US killing people in other countries, accountable to no-one. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
First I do wish to say I do respect your views, although we obviously disagree. I am not trying to be offensive, just learn your opinions and share mine. If we do not take this step we truly have no possible solution. From your point 1 I take it that you do accept that sometimes the innocent do get hurt when authorities try to protect the populace. Not good but it does happen and not to much we can do about it. On your point 2. I believe this is called a war on terrorism. I disagree with accountable to no-one. So I believe the basic issue is finding a common ground that we both agree on how to hold the US soldiers (and policy makers) accountable.
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: I agree with your concern, but I feel that all are responsible for what they allow their country (region) to support to at least some extent. They support harboring these criminals so have taken on that risk. The citizens of those regions being bombed probably have no idea what is going on and why they're under fire. They work and struggle daily to make barely enough to support themselves and perhaps their families. You think ordinary people would put in the time and effort to harbor terrorists? Terrorists exploit weaknesses in infrastructure, and infrastructure is the responsibility of the government. Go after the governments! Bilal
Bilal wrote: You think ordinary people would put in the time and effort to harbor terrorists? I believe that the average person (any country) tends to ignore what is around them and not act. Today was election day here in the US. Once again I think I am going to be very disappointed in how few people vote. I also believe they must share responsiblity for doing nothing. At least here that is how we can go after our government and most do not.
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First I do wish to say I do respect your views, although we obviously disagree. I am not trying to be offensive, just learn your opinions and share mine. If we do not take this step we truly have no possible solution. From your point 1 I take it that you do accept that sometimes the innocent do get hurt when authorities try to protect the populace. Not good but it does happen and not to much we can do about it. On your point 2. I believe this is called a war on terrorism. I disagree with accountable to no-one. So I believe the basic issue is finding a common ground that we both agree on how to hold the US soldiers (and policy makers) accountable.
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: So I believe the basic issue is finding a common ground that we both agree on how to hold the US soldiers (and policy makers) accountable. I agree - that is my core point. I hope the US DOES find those responsible and that justice is done, but justice and vengeance are not always the same, and in any case, care must be taken to ensure the desire to punish SOMEONE does not result in punishment of the innocent. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Stan Shannon wrote: Christian Graus wrote: Basically the USA is a law unto itself in the world arena. A right we've earned. I like you Stan, but the only way I can respond to this is, what a pile of crap. Why is it that Osama Bin Laden is not allowed to rule the world, but George Bush is ? Why is his view of who should die in another country not acceptable, but George Bushes view is ? I'm not saying that your country is killing innocent people, just saying that it seems to me that if they are, there is no way for me to know, and no-one else is getting a say. Imagine if Russia killed an American, on American soil, because they were found guilty by the Russian military of an act against Russia. Would you applaud ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: the only way I can respond to this is, what a pile of crap. Just trying to get your goat;P I actually don't blame you for feeling the way you do. The U.S. takes actions which could have a tremendous impact on your way of life, yet you have no voice in the selection of those who make the decisions. Perfectly understandable that you would not be comfortable with that. Look at it from an American perspective for a moment though. Do we simply turn our hegemony over to world opinion? Do we wait for the U.N. to dictate to us how we are to act? Do we humbly bow do the superior intellectual authority of the Europeans? China? India? My people have had to sacrifice a great deal to achieve the way of life my family and I now enjoy. Centuries of sacrifice. I feel an overwhelming commitment to bequeath to my children what was bequeathed to me. I don't feel that I can both do that and also yield to what others would have me do. I just can't do it. We have earned by hard work, courage, integrity and intelligence, the right to defend ourselves in our own way. It may not be fair to you, but world affairs have never been managed more fairly and peacefully than they have been under Pax Americana. I think we are doing a good job. Sure, we are a violent, poorly educated, capitalistic pigs, but that is the source of our strengh. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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Here is the root of my problem with the situation: As a citizen of another country I want to be assured of two things. One, that the US alone does not just invade and destroy my country without worldwide agreement that we "deserve" it. i.e. The US must discuss things with the rest of the world and then even if the decision is not to their liking, comply. Right now this point is feeling very shaky what with Bush not giving a toss what even other bigger nations think. Two, that if a US soldier performs some kind of atrocity in my country that he is held up to our law, or at least a law that we agree to (like the ICC.) i.e. Right now that soldier is held to US law and my country may not agree with US law. When a US soldier enters another country they should do so with full realisation that they are outside of the US now, that this is not their personal stomping ground, that if they do something wrong they will be responsible for it according to the law of the country (or the the law the country agrees to.) I am sure there have been plenty of US soldiers court marshaled and locked up for doing something wrong in another country. But I think a lot of people feel that if the US soldier happens to be someone important to the US, then the US will step in and tell the rest of the world to fuck off. All in all none of us have faith that the US respects the rest of the world. You are untouchable and we don't like that. Enjoy the voting :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaRay Cassick wrote:
Well I am not female, not gay and I am not Paul WatsonPaul Watson wrote: The US must discuss things with the rest of the world and then even if the decision is not to their liking, comply. Right now this point is feeling very shaky what with Bush not giving a toss what even other bigger nations think. I understand your sentiment here. I agree that the rhetoric being used is not that which would make you at ease. Paul Watson wrote: Two, that if a US soldier performs some kind of atrocity in my country that he is held up to our law, or at least a law that we agree to (like the ICC.) i.e. Right now that soldier is held to US law and my country may not agree with US law. When a US soldier enters another country they should do so with full realisation that they are outside of the US now, that this is not their personal stomping ground, that if they do something wrong they will be responsible for it according to the law of the country (or the the law the country agrees to.) In peace time I totally agree with you. In declared war I do not. I do agree that the leadership in time of war must be accountable. If you read my interaction with Christian, we (my words) do agree the core issue is finding a common ground to use for this required accountablity. I agree that this accepted accountability should be a major effort. I can at least write and share those feelings. Paul Watson wrote: All in all none of us have faith that the US respects the rest of the world. If we achieve the above (yes a big if), I would assume it would be a major step in building that faith up.