Gotcha
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Stan Shannon wrote: Enlighten me as to what he is doing that is so dangerous. no. you enlighten me: where is it written that any country has the right to kill people: a. in countries they're not at war with b. who are merely suspected of something c. without even the slightest pretense of a trial ? that's right: nowhere. it is an absolutely despicable way for any country to behave. the CIA should have captured the suspects, handed them over to the military and put them on trial. -c
“losinger is a colorizing text edit control” -- googlism
Chris Losinger wrote: no. you enlighten me: OK. First, for what its worth, I don't like the tactics of using smart weapons and supermen (Special forces) to allow an individual politician to exhert his will around the world. We should have overtly declared war against these nations and done our business the old fashioned way - millions of poorly trined draftees in a hurry to get back home, combined with carpet bombing. But thats just me. We cannot do that because of world opinion. Terrorists are running around freely and openly in countries like Yemen. Either Yemen does not care to police them up, or they are just too incompetent to do so. We also do not have the authority to have the CIA arrest people in other countries and hand them over to anyone. We are left with no legal or effective method of dealing with terrorists. We can do nothing. We can't invade, can't assassinate, can't arrest. Apparently we are supposed to set with our thumbs up our butts waiting for Islam to finally become civilized enough to deal with hordes of religious fanatics determined to kill us. Chris Losinger wrote: it is an absolutely despicable way for any country to behave. It is not all that dispicable. It was merely impolite. Sorry... "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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Stan Shannon wrote: If it comes to that, Islam will lose and lose big. You reckon ? Have you considered that they outnumber us (i.e. the West) and are willing to die for their cause ? Have you considered that a *proportion* of those Islamic folks living in your country would respond to a religious war by following their god rather than their country ? Or that attempting to contain that problem would only make it worse ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: Have you considered that a *proportion* of those Islamic folks living in your country would respond to a religious war by following their god rather than their country ? Well, numbers are not a concern. Ironically, those numbers would evaporate overnight if their supply lines of food and medicine to the west were cut off. We wouldn't need to fire a shot. Besides, they are not the only ones prepared to die for thier cause. Aren't you? Christian Graus wrote: Have you considered that a *proportion* of those Islamic folks living in your country would respond to a religious war by following their god rather than their country ? I would be disappointed if they didn't. However, I've been doing a lot of driving back and forth between Indiana and Tennessee of late and have not seen a single Muslim anywhere. Just good Christian rednecks. I don't think its a concern here in the heartland. They can shoot the seaboard up all they please. I'll start worrying once they manage to fight their way through the Appalachians and the Rockies. Christian Graus wrote: Or that attempting to contain that problem would only make it worse ? Worse than what? "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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Stan Shannon wrote: Pick a side. and what are these "sides" ?
“losinger is a colorizing text edit control” -- googlism
The good side and the evil side, of course. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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OK, everyone sit down and remove any sharp objects from your immediate vicinity I'm about to shock you: I, Mike Mullikin, agree that the US/CIA should not have targeted and killed these individuals. They should have been captured alive, tried and convicted of their crimes under due process. This is a serious mistake in world relations and should not be repeated. We cannot continue to be arbitrary judge, jury and executioner. That said, once convicted these individuals should have been publicly tortured to death in an attempt to gain knowledge of their organization and for general entertainment purposes.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
Mike Mullikin wrote: They should have been captured alive, tried and convicted of their crimes under due process. How would you have liked to be the guy trying to do the arresting? And has it occured to you that arresting them would have been no more legal than blowing them up? Any such arrest would have been thrown out of any international court. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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Christian Graus wrote: Have you considered that a *proportion* of those Islamic folks living in your country would respond to a religious war by following their god rather than their country ? Well, numbers are not a concern. Ironically, those numbers would evaporate overnight if their supply lines of food and medicine to the west were cut off. We wouldn't need to fire a shot. Besides, they are not the only ones prepared to die for thier cause. Aren't you? Christian Graus wrote: Have you considered that a *proportion* of those Islamic folks living in your country would respond to a religious war by following their god rather than their country ? I would be disappointed if they didn't. However, I've been doing a lot of driving back and forth between Indiana and Tennessee of late and have not seen a single Muslim anywhere. Just good Christian rednecks. I don't think its a concern here in the heartland. They can shoot the seaboard up all they please. I'll start worrying once they manage to fight their way through the Appalachians and the Rockies. Christian Graus wrote: Or that attempting to contain that problem would only make it worse ? Worse than what? "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Stan Shannon wrote: Aren't you? Hell, no. MY cause is to grow as old as I can, and see how ugly I can get. Stan Shannon wrote: Ironically, those numbers would evaporate overnight if their supply lines of food and medicine to the west were cut off. In the case of Iraq, you've done that. The innocents are both dying and learning to hate the USA. Stan Shannon wrote: Just good Christian rednecks. I don't think its a concern here in the heartland. To be honest, I'd rather have the Islamic people for neighbours. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Stan Shannon wrote: Do we wait for the U.N. to dictate to us how we are to act? Either that, or stop pretending that the US is in fact trying to be the ruler and final arbiter over the planet. Stan Shannon wrote: I feel an overwhelming commitment to bequeath to my children what was bequeathed to me. And here is the problem. You are raised to make your country your religion. It's not your fault, you've been brainwashed since you were born. Australia has it's own traditions, but while they leave me in a fortunate position, they need to be viewed in light of the current situation. I have no more in common with the diggers at Galipoli than the Pope does, and it would be wrong to live my life through some association with past events. No matter what, history is written by the winners, everyone is raised to believe they are lucky that things turned out the way they did. Stan Shannon wrote: It may not be fair to you, but world affairs have never been managed more fairly and peacefully than they have been under Pax Americana. Fair to you, maybe. Not fair to those who choose a way of life that conflicts with the ideals of the USA. How many people died in the past 50 years at the hands of the USA for desiring to live under a non-democratic system of government, for example ? Stan Shannon wrote: Sure, we are a violent, poorly educated, capitalistic pigs, but that is the source of our strengh. It's more I think that you've seen too many movies and want the world to be as black and white as Hollywood makes it look. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: . You are raised to make your country your religion. It's not your fault, you've been brainwashed since you were born. OK, I won't deny that. But what religion should I exchange it for? Who's brainwashing should I expose my children to? Christian Graus wrote: I have no more in common with the diggers at Galipoli than the Pope does, and it would be wrong to live my life through some association with past events. Its not a question of living your life for the past, it is about having the same regard for the future that those who came before you did. The same commitment to independence and liberty as traditionally viewed within the context of American culture. I just do not see that same commitment around the world. It worries me. Christian Graus wrote: It's more I think that you've seen too many movies and want the world to be as black and white as Hollywood makes it look. You seem to think I go to a lot of movies. I think you give Hollywood far too much credit. I actually got most of my brainwashing from visiting cemetaries. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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Stan Shannon wrote: Aren't you? Hell, no. MY cause is to grow as old as I can, and see how ugly I can get. Stan Shannon wrote: Ironically, those numbers would evaporate overnight if their supply lines of food and medicine to the west were cut off. In the case of Iraq, you've done that. The innocents are both dying and learning to hate the USA. Stan Shannon wrote: Just good Christian rednecks. I don't think its a concern here in the heartland. To be honest, I'd rather have the Islamic people for neighbours. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: To be honest, I'd rather have the Islamic people for neighbours. Probably a wise choice. I wish more of the world's people felt the same. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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Bilal wrote: You seem to think that terrorists are pouring out of some wormhole called the "Islamic society". Aren't they? Bilal wrote: Didn't Bush say this wasn't a war against Islam? But if this is the state of American public opinion then who is he kidding? Being an American, I generally think for myself, and derive my own conclusions from my own observations. I don't really care what Bush or any other American thinks about anything. And yes, I think Islamic society, in general, has some serious problems which it badly needs to deal with. I think the terrorism we are seeing now is a natural out growth of core Islamic principles and beliefs (I'm not necessarily refering to the religion. The problems go far beyond that). You guys need to deal with these issues yourselves - openly and honestly. Blaming everything on the west and the U.S. will not help you. If you don't get it under control and fast, this is going to become a clash of cultures. If it comes to that, Islam will lose and lose big. BTW, I am not impressed by the word "Moderate". A moderate is just a coward waiting to see which side wins. Pick a side. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Stan Shannon wrote: I think the terrorism we are seeing now is a natural out growth of core Islamic principles and beliefs (I'm not necessarily refering to the religion. The problems go far beyond that). I can assure you that core Islamic principles and beliefs (aka 'religion') forbid attacking innocents, even during wartime. However, I don't blame you for thinking that isn't so. The failure is ours. We allowed them to hijack "Jihad" when it served our interests, but now when they're rendering more harm instead of service to the religion, we're asking the victims to stop crying foul. Stan Shannon wrote: Pick a side. Side with the US on how to deal with terrorism? No way, thank you. Aerial assassinations, plans for invading Iraq, calling the destruction in Afghanistan "collateral damage". This gung-ho approach completes the vicious cycle of terrorism and the US is in so deep that you're beginning to see the world in black and white. You want shades of grey? US was pushing weapons to Saddam when he gassed the Kurds. IDF denies basic human rights to Palestinians but the US supports Israel unconditionally. Islam condemns terrorism but Arabs support Hamas anyway (since they love taking punches at Israel). Saudi monarchy claims to implement the Sharia but stifles all criticism (provides oil to US to keep it happy, in return for US arms). Suharto killed hundreds of thousands in Indonesia but where did he get the choppers and ammo for that? Now you tell me the world isn't a mess? You claim to have picked a side. Which side is it exactly? Bilal
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Christian Graus wrote: . You are raised to make your country your religion. It's not your fault, you've been brainwashed since you were born. OK, I won't deny that. But what religion should I exchange it for? Who's brainwashing should I expose my children to? Christian Graus wrote: I have no more in common with the diggers at Galipoli than the Pope does, and it would be wrong to live my life through some association with past events. Its not a question of living your life for the past, it is about having the same regard for the future that those who came before you did. The same commitment to independence and liberty as traditionally viewed within the context of American culture. I just do not see that same commitment around the world. It worries me. Christian Graus wrote: It's more I think that you've seen too many movies and want the world to be as black and white as Hollywood makes it look. You seem to think I go to a lot of movies. I think you give Hollywood far too much credit. I actually got most of my brainwashing from visiting cemetaries. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Stan Shannon wrote: But what religion should I exchange it for? Free will ? Stan Shannon wrote: Who's brainwashing should I expose my children to? Your own, I guess. My society functions quite well without this sort of thing, it's hardly a prerequisite. Stan Shannon wrote: The same commitment to independence and liberty as traditionally viewed within the context of American culture. I just do not see that same commitment around the world. It worries me. Like I said, we are not subject to the same brainwashing in our schools. I value freedom, but I see that to mean freedom to choose, not freedom to choose the American way, or die. Stan Shannon wrote: I actually got most of my brainwashing from visiting cemetaries. How does that work ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Mike Mullikin wrote: They should have been captured alive, tried and convicted of their crimes under due process. How would you have liked to be the guy trying to do the arresting? And has it occured to you that arresting them would have been no more legal than blowing them up? Any such arrest would have been thrown out of any international court. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Stan Shannon wrote: How would you have liked to be the guy trying to do the arresting? If I had chosen that to be my profession, I doubt I'd have a problem with it. Do you also think the local police should shoot all suspects first because it's safer than apprehension? Stan Shannon wrote: And has it occured to you that arresting them would have been no more legal than blowing them up? Any such arrest would have been thrown out of any international court. Who said anything about legal or illegal? Who said anything about international courts? I said capture, try, convict and punish. As far as I'm concerned the trial, conviction and punishment can be done on US soil by our courts (either civilian or military). We have a theory in this country that says everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. I really don't give a damn about the UN or world opinion. If we can't look in the mirror and know we did things by our standards, all is lost.
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap