Why Afghanistan is so f**cked up
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How about the Iran-Contra Affair or selling arms to Iraq? My only thought about it now is who are we selling arms to or propping up now that we're fight later? edited for clarity.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
modified on Monday, August 16, 2010 3:13 PM
The entire damn thing drives me nuts, between Oil and the red scare we've managed to screw ourselves for generations. All out of sheer stupidity, either a hysterical fear that blots out nationalistic revolutions in favor of seeing it as commie-empire-land or a blind greed that demands more oil. Mind you, I was born at least two decades late to have any influence on this and only this year could I have considered running for any office at the national level. Yet when we invaded Afghanistan I was still sitting there wondering why in the blazes we were doing it as none of the cases made any real sense or wreaked of tampering, while sitting at the lunch table with a few of my friends who I had to then explain much of the history to.
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Here is a little history lesson (edited from Wikipedia): The Pashtun tribes under Ahmad Shah Durrani created the Durrani Empire in 1747 which became the forerunner of modern Afghanistan. We (the British) used Afghanistan as buffer state in "The Great Game" between the British to prevent the Russian empires threatening the Indian Colonies (this is pre-partition, so this covers modern pakistan). During the great game Russia tried to de-stabilise British rule, eventually the British lost control in 1919, and became a kingdom once more. Since the late 1970s Afghanistan has experienced a continuous state of civil war. The US funded the Mujahideen to fight the code war-by proxy with the then USSR. The Mujahideen created a culture of semi-feudal warlords, the warlords spearheaded the Taliban revolution. Now discuss how the Taliban fucked up the country. I'm not saying the Taliban are a bunch of fluffy bunnies (or even fully paid up members of humanity) but it's the west that created the problems.
ragnaroknrol The Internet is For Porn[^]
Pete o'Hanlon: If it wasn't insulting tools, I'd say you were dumber than a bag of spanners. -
harold aptroot wrote:
Taliban still sucks.
Agreed, ar*eholes of the first water. If it would sort the problems out (or if were even possible), the Taliban should be rounded up, tried then put against a wall and shot. My main beef was the majority of opinion on this thread: http://www.codeproject.com/Messages/3566323/f-em-all.aspx[^] I just think some historical perspective might be better than the usual ill-informed musi-bashing and jingoism. The other thing history teaches is that Afghanistan is effectively uncontrollable by external force, and that a policy of sealing it off couldn't possibly work. If you "leave them to it", history also teaches, the violence will spread.
ragnaroknrol The Internet is For Porn[^]
Pete o'Hanlon: If it wasn't insulting tools, I'd say you were dumber than a bag of spanners. -
harold aptroot wrote:
Taliban still sucks.
Agreed, ar*eholes of the first water. If it would sort the problems out (or if were even possible), the Taliban should be rounded up, tried then put against a wall and shot. My main beef was the majority of opinion on this thread: http://www.codeproject.com/Messages/3566323/f-em-all.aspx[^] I just think some historical perspective might be better than the usual ill-informed musi-bashing and jingoism. The other thing history teaches is that Afghanistan is effectively uncontrollable by external force, and that a policy of sealing it off couldn't possibly work. If you "leave them to it", history also teaches, the violence will spread.
ragnaroknrol The Internet is For Porn[^]
Pete o'Hanlon: If it wasn't insulting tools, I'd say you were dumber than a bag of spanners. -
Here is a little history lesson (edited from Wikipedia): The Pashtun tribes under Ahmad Shah Durrani created the Durrani Empire in 1747 which became the forerunner of modern Afghanistan. We (the British) used Afghanistan as buffer state in "The Great Game" between the British to prevent the Russian empires threatening the Indian Colonies (this is pre-partition, so this covers modern pakistan). During the great game Russia tried to de-stabilise British rule, eventually the British lost control in 1919, and became a kingdom once more. Since the late 1970s Afghanistan has experienced a continuous state of civil war. The US funded the Mujahideen to fight the code war-by proxy with the then USSR. The Mujahideen created a culture of semi-feudal warlords, the warlords spearheaded the Taliban revolution. Now discuss how the Taliban fucked up the country. I'm not saying the Taliban are a bunch of fluffy bunnies (or even fully paid up members of humanity) but it's the west that created the problems.
ragnaroknrol The Internet is For Porn[^]
Pete o'Hanlon: If it wasn't insulting tools, I'd say you were dumber than a bag of spanners.And then there are the Americas, the far east, and the Caribean, fought over by the French, Spanish, English, Dutch and Portuguese Empires for centuries, all of which are not fucked up in any unusual way (unusual compared to how fucked up say Norther Ireland is, or the Basque region). No, these people, Afghans, Iranians, Kurds, etc have a screw loose up top.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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And then there are the Americas, the far east, and the Caribean, fought over by the French, Spanish, English, Dutch and Portuguese Empires for centuries, all of which are not fucked up in any unusual way (unusual compared to how fucked up say Norther Ireland is, or the Basque region). No, these people, Afghans, Iranians, Kurds, etc have a screw loose up top.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Here is a little history lesson (edited from Wikipedia): The Pashtun tribes under Ahmad Shah Durrani created the Durrani Empire in 1747 which became the forerunner of modern Afghanistan. We (the British) used Afghanistan as buffer state in "The Great Game" between the British to prevent the Russian empires threatening the Indian Colonies (this is pre-partition, so this covers modern pakistan). During the great game Russia tried to de-stabilise British rule, eventually the British lost control in 1919, and became a kingdom once more. Since the late 1970s Afghanistan has experienced a continuous state of civil war. The US funded the Mujahideen to fight the code war-by proxy with the then USSR. The Mujahideen created a culture of semi-feudal warlords, the warlords spearheaded the Taliban revolution. Now discuss how the Taliban fucked up the country. I'm not saying the Taliban are a bunch of fluffy bunnies (or even fully paid up members of humanity) but it's the west that created the problems.
ragnaroknrol The Internet is For Porn[^]
Pete o'Hanlon: If it wasn't insulting tools, I'd say you were dumber than a bag of spanners.1: Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. 2: Bit late to worry about it: we are where are and we have to deal with it and, plainly, we are not dealing with it. 3: Regardless of how they came to wield power the Taliban are an obscenity intent on dragging the country back to the stone age and they are partly funded by Pakistan and the drugs trade. What is the answer? Far cleverer people than me don't seem to know. Anyone out there with a good idea?
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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Its because they dont allow themselves to fuck, or drink, or have a laugh. Luxemberg, 2.5 times the GDP per capita of the UK. About as rich a place as you could imagine. Yet by the station are a load of bars, strip clubs, prossies hanging out on corners, kebab shops, (no, the other kind of kebab), music shops etc. And the people are happy! Admit that mans nature contains both the noble and the sordid, then redefine sordid to 'expressing our animal nature' and you have a perfect cocktail for wealth and happiness! These arab/afghani/iranian types are just so fucked up.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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1: Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. 2: Bit late to worry about it: we are where are and we have to deal with it and, plainly, we are not dealing with it. 3: Regardless of how they came to wield power the Taliban are an obscenity intent on dragging the country back to the stone age and they are partly funded by Pakistan and the drugs trade. What is the answer? Far cleverer people than me don't seem to know. Anyone out there with a good idea?
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
digital man wrote:
Anyone out there with a good idea?
Carpet bomb the entire region. --edit-- Quite clearly these peoplel dont like being alive. The cant fuck, drink, enjoy themselves, so clearly thet would rather be with their beloved Allah in heaven,m where they can fuck and drink and have a laugh. (Yes, the koran says that in paradise you will 'drink sweet wine that doesnt befuddle your senses'. Dontn know about the virgins, but you will be served this drink by boysa as 'pretty as pearls'. Which is kind of questionable in itself). Anyway, so carpet bombing the entire regions merely puts these people where they want to be. So lets get 'em off our little chunk of paradise and put them in theirs!
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digital man wrote:
Anyone out there with a good idea?
Carpet bomb the entire region. --edit-- Quite clearly these peoplel dont like being alive. The cant fuck, drink, enjoy themselves, so clearly thet would rather be with their beloved Allah in heaven,m where they can fuck and drink and have a laugh. (Yes, the koran says that in paradise you will 'drink sweet wine that doesnt befuddle your senses'. Dontn know about the virgins, but you will be served this drink by boysa as 'pretty as pearls'. Which is kind of questionable in itself). Anyway, so carpet bombing the entire regions merely puts these people where they want to be. So lets get 'em off our little chunk of paradise and put them in theirs!
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And then there are the Americas, the far east, and the Caribean, fought over by the French, Spanish, English, Dutch and Portuguese Empires for centuries, all of which are not fucked up in any unusual way (unusual compared to how fucked up say Norther Ireland is, or the Basque region). No, these people, Afghans, Iranians, Kurds, etc have a screw loose up top.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
Specious reasoning. Not all colonies were colonised in the same way, to the same degree at the same time. Additionally, the US (and to an extent the old USSR) is at the root of a lot of the modern problems (along side decolonisation from the European Imperial powers), because it has been the de facto world power since the '30s. All the areas you mention were fought over by the French, Spanish, English (i.e. between one another), the native population was't kept in a semi-perpetual state of war, and any serious fighting there ceased a fair while ago. If you look at Africa, which was colonised and de-colonised more recently, there are many fucked up areas and countries, just you hear less about it because it doesn't effect us directly.
ragnaroknrol The Internet is For Porn[^]
Pete o'Hanlon: If it wasn't insulting tools, I'd say you were dumber than a bag of spanners. -
Bit of an inflammatory statement...
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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Specious reasoning. Not all colonies were colonised in the same way, to the same degree at the same time. Additionally, the US (and to an extent the old USSR) is at the root of a lot of the modern problems (along side decolonisation from the European Imperial powers), because it has been the de facto world power since the '30s. All the areas you mention were fought over by the French, Spanish, English (i.e. between one another), the native population was't kept in a semi-perpetual state of war, and any serious fighting there ceased a fair while ago. If you look at Africa, which was colonised and de-colonised more recently, there are many fucked up areas and countries, just you hear less about it because it doesn't effect us directly.
ragnaroknrol The Internet is For Porn[^]
Pete o'Hanlon: If it wasn't insulting tools, I'd say you were dumber than a bag of spanners.Keith Barrow wrote:
Specious reasoning
How can the colonisation of almost half the earth by 6 countries over many centuries be specious?
Keith Barrow wrote:
All the areas you mention were fought over by the French, Spanish, English (i.e. between one another), the native population was't kept in a semi-perpetual state of war, and any serious fighting there ceased a fair while ago. If you look at Africa, which was colonised and de-colonised more recently, there are many f***ed up areas and countries
What a load of cock. SOuth Africa. Not at all fucked up. Actually one of the least fucked up countries in Africa. Yet the dominant groups, Boers and British, were at war a mere century ago.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Keith Barrow wrote:
Specious reasoning
How can the colonisation of almost half the earth by 6 countries over many centuries be specious?
Keith Barrow wrote:
All the areas you mention were fought over by the French, Spanish, English (i.e. between one another), the native population was't kept in a semi-perpetual state of war, and any serious fighting there ceased a fair while ago. If you look at Africa, which was colonised and de-colonised more recently, there are many f***ed up areas and countries
What a load of cock. SOuth Africa. Not at all fucked up. Actually one of the least fucked up countries in Africa. Yet the dominant groups, Boers and British, were at war a mere century ago.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
How can the colonisation of almost half the earth by 6 countries over many centuries be specious?
No, your reasoning was specious, it looks fair, but it wasn't. The colonisations were not all equivalent.
fat_boy wrote:
What a load of c***
Nope, this better describes your reasoning:
fat_boy wrote:
What a load of c***. SOuth Africa. Not at all f***ed up. Actually one of the least f***ed up countries in Africa. Yet the dominant groups, Boers and British, were at war a mere century ago.
So all those years of aparthied and inter-tribal warfare were not fucked up? Afghanistan has been at an effective (or actual) state of civil war since the 70s, leave it until 2080. Additionally, it was the Boers and the British were at war, not the native Africans, this is not the case in Afghanistan. Both these things make your comparison invalid.
ragnaroknrol The Internet is For Porn[^]
Pete o'Hanlon: If it wasn't insulting tools, I'd say you were dumber than a bag of spanners. -
Bit of an inflammatory statement...
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
Must resist pun..... .....noooooo.... It could blow up in his face. There I feel better now.
ragnaroknrol The Internet is For Porn[^]
Pete o'Hanlon: If it wasn't insulting tools, I'd say you were dumber than a bag of spanners. -
fat_boy wrote:
How can the colonisation of almost half the earth by 6 countries over many centuries be specious?
No, your reasoning was specious, it looks fair, but it wasn't. The colonisations were not all equivalent.
fat_boy wrote:
What a load of c***
Nope, this better describes your reasoning:
fat_boy wrote:
What a load of c***. SOuth Africa. Not at all f***ed up. Actually one of the least f***ed up countries in Africa. Yet the dominant groups, Boers and British, were at war a mere century ago.
So all those years of aparthied and inter-tribal warfare were not fucked up? Afghanistan has been at an effective (or actual) state of civil war since the 70s, leave it until 2080. Additionally, it was the Boers and the British were at war, not the native Africans, this is not the case in Afghanistan. Both these things make your comparison invalid.
ragnaroknrol The Internet is For Porn[^]
Pete o'Hanlon: If it wasn't insulting tools, I'd say you were dumber than a bag of spanners.Intertribal warfare had nothing to do with the Boers and British fighting. THe Zulu and Xhosa (fuck, just how IS it spelt?) have been at each others throats for centuries, and in other teritories way before south africa even existed.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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The entire damn thing drives me nuts, between Oil and the red scare we've managed to screw ourselves for generations. All out of sheer stupidity, either a hysterical fear that blots out nationalistic revolutions in favor of seeing it as commie-empire-land or a blind greed that demands more oil. Mind you, I was born at least two decades late to have any influence on this and only this year could I have considered running for any office at the national level. Yet when we invaded Afghanistan I was still sitting there wondering why in the blazes we were doing it as none of the cases made any real sense or wreaked of tampering, while sitting at the lunch table with a few of my friends who I had to then explain much of the history to.
I'm still in my twenties. I've found that when you ask questions of why people believe something to be true they get very defensive most of the time. There is so much tied to oil, the military industrial complex, and other forms of big business that people by and large are so apathetic to it because they don't think they can do anything about it, don't believe their company is wrong, they're afraid of losing their jobs, etc. There are many reasons why people don't take action, mostly it all seems to be some form of apathy or fear. In some ways I almost wish the housing bubble and unemployment had gotten worse or near Great Depression status. At that point maybe big business and the uber rich could have had their heads wacked (figuratively) and we could get on making our country great again. Not thinking certainly doesn't do it. I don't see any real certain direction the country is going. Did you know that we used to have an income tax rate of 92% for the top 1%? But then again as I write this I'm doing nothing to make the country better either. Most of us are just so busy with our everyday lives that we vote thinking that this guy is better than the other guy because he's not this or that. I'm don't think it's their differences we should be so interested in but their similarities because the two parties are very similar.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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1: Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. 2: Bit late to worry about it: we are where are and we have to deal with it and, plainly, we are not dealing with it. 3: Regardless of how they came to wield power the Taliban are an obscenity intent on dragging the country back to the stone age and they are partly funded by Pakistan and the drugs trade. What is the answer? Far cleverer people than me don't seem to know. Anyone out there with a good idea?
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
digital man wrote:
3: Regardless of how they came to wield power the Taliban are an obscenity intent on dragging the country back to the stone age and they are partly funded by Pakistan and the drugs trade.
There should be a global legislation enforcing all drugs to be labeled with country of origin. That way users could chose drugs from other parts of the world? :wtf:
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Here is a little history lesson (edited from Wikipedia): The Pashtun tribes under Ahmad Shah Durrani created the Durrani Empire in 1747 which became the forerunner of modern Afghanistan. We (the British) used Afghanistan as buffer state in "The Great Game" between the British to prevent the Russian empires threatening the Indian Colonies (this is pre-partition, so this covers modern pakistan). During the great game Russia tried to de-stabilise British rule, eventually the British lost control in 1919, and became a kingdom once more. Since the late 1970s Afghanistan has experienced a continuous state of civil war. The US funded the Mujahideen to fight the code war-by proxy with the then USSR. The Mujahideen created a culture of semi-feudal warlords, the warlords spearheaded the Taliban revolution. Now discuss how the Taliban fucked up the country. I'm not saying the Taliban are a bunch of fluffy bunnies (or even fully paid up members of humanity) but it's the west that created the problems.
ragnaroknrol The Internet is For Porn[^]
Pete o'Hanlon: If it wasn't insulting tools, I'd say you were dumber than a bag of spanners.It's because too many in the West (America, the UK, etc) think the world would be better if everyone was just like us.
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I'm still in my twenties. I've found that when you ask questions of why people believe something to be true they get very defensive most of the time. There is so much tied to oil, the military industrial complex, and other forms of big business that people by and large are so apathetic to it because they don't think they can do anything about it, don't believe their company is wrong, they're afraid of losing their jobs, etc. There are many reasons why people don't take action, mostly it all seems to be some form of apathy or fear. In some ways I almost wish the housing bubble and unemployment had gotten worse or near Great Depression status. At that point maybe big business and the uber rich could have had their heads wacked (figuratively) and we could get on making our country great again. Not thinking certainly doesn't do it. I don't see any real certain direction the country is going. Did you know that we used to have an income tax rate of 92% for the top 1%? But then again as I write this I'm doing nothing to make the country better either. Most of us are just so busy with our everyday lives that we vote thinking that this guy is better than the other guy because he's not this or that. I'm don't think it's their differences we should be so interested in but their similarities because the two parties are very similar.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
wolfbinary wrote:
Did you know that we used to have an income tax rate of 92% for the top 1%?
In the idealistic conservative 50s none the less. I love bringing that up. Funny how people fail to notice how prosperity for the nation at large can often be tied to a narrow gap between rich and poor. Less class strife when there is less of a class difference, less social agitation when there are fewer social irritants.
wolfbinary wrote:
Most of us are just so busy with our everyday lives that we vote thinking that this guy is better than the other guy because he's not this or that. I'm don't think it's their differences we should be so interested in but their similarities because the two parties are very similar.
To be fair, I voted for Obama because his policy proposals showed signs of realism and planning, where as I could always tell where the 8 years were over by McCain's projections as they all spiked after that. For what he was handed he's done a fair job, If anything I wish he and the democrats had grown a damn spine and taken the republicans to task on a number of the issues which have come up. But when it comes to the party at large, you really can't expect much difference and still have them able to achieve any serious power. They pull reps from every part of the country, for where they come from they're biased in the party's political direction. Given that nature the political mid ground of the nation is always going to be the primary factor in policy making. If you want to change how the country is going politically you're going to have to shift that middle ground, and in a culture where things like facts and reason are thrown out the window for blind political screeds I don't have the slightest clue what you would have to do to pull it off.