Is domocracy the best ????
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As think about it a little more, I can imagine that taxes should go down as less people are dependant on the government. If this is true then those self-sufficients, who are essentially the tax-payers, would be motivated to vote for government rules which help decrease dependency. If the lawmakers do this, they will be re-elected. and so on..... The constitution in this country would have to ensure, however that those who rely on government are not abandoned. Rohit Sinha wrote: This might have been good in an ideal situation, even then I have my doubts, but let them be, but the real world is slightly different It has aspects which rely on good intention I think and probably wouldn't work as is, but interesting none the less.:) BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
brianwelsch wrote: I can imagine that taxes should go down as less people are dependant on the government. What I fail to understand is, how can people stop depending on the government? :confused: :confused: :confused:
Regards,Rohit Sinha
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brianwelsch wrote: I can imagine that taxes should go down as less people are dependant on the government. What I fail to understand is, how can people stop depending on the government? :confused: :confused: :confused:
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Rohit Sinha wrote: how can people stop depending on the government They really can't. What I mean by less dependence is that someone is economically capable to survive without government help. (ie. welfare, education, food, etc.) Your only reliance would basically be military. BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
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Rohit Sinha wrote: how can people stop depending on the government They really can't. What I mean by less dependence is that someone is economically capable to survive without government help. (ie. welfare, education, food, etc.) Your only reliance would basically be military. BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
So basically this is a scenario where people can pay for what they use. The government makes atleast as much money as it spends on roads, healthcare, education, social security, etc etc. Isn't this already the case in the US? :cool:
Regards,Rohit Sinha
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Shamoon wrote: Shamoon wrote: Is domocracy the best ???? I've always prefered accessing XML through the DOM, rather than SAX. But sometimes, SAX is the best. Shamoon wrote: My question is that what is democracy ??? An elegant lie. The people have no power, it is simply taken away more subtly in a 'democracy'. Shamoon wrote: Then is it appropriate to call such government non-democratic ?? Yes, unless the people have the right to vote on that government and elect their chosen representatives. Shamoon wrote: Consider two countries one where there is a democratic government which is corrupt. That is the point at which a democracy is not what it promises to be. The point though is that in theory if the corruption of government affects the people, they have the right to fire that government come election time. Now suppose if it is written in your constitution that Supreme Court can make any change in it and so Supreme Court allows Military rule in country for certain time period, then is it against constitution and is it approprate to call such government a non-constitutional government??? This is word games. Can people in Pakistan elect their government ? Can they, through an established process, indicate their support or otherwise for the current government with no fear of reprisals, and as a result of that indication, see total change of government ? Can any member of society present themselves to be considered by this process ? If not, it is not a democracy. Shamoon wrote: In a nut shell just suppose that a military rule is fully compliant with the definition of democracy, now is it justified to oppose such rule and force that country to return to democracy?? If a country is happy, if it's people are happy, then no-one else has the right to tell them how to govern themselves. The USA has tried to do this in the past ( think Vietnam ) and failed. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002
Christian Graus wrote: The USA has tried to do this in the past ( think Vietnam ) and failed. in all fairness, so has England, France, Portugal, Germany, Italy, Holland, Spain, Turkey, China, Japan, Egypt, etc.. it's probably easier to count the countries which haven't tried to control the innards of other countries. -c
A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking.
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I was reading the post below that discusses the topic of Democracy in Pakistan. The thread was started by person who himself live in democratic country and replied by others who are themselves living in democratic countries. All of these people were not pleased by the military rule in Pakistan and their way of expression reflects that they like democracy. I don't know too much about Pakistan so any PAkistani CPian correct me if i am wrong. My question is that what is democracy ??? I searched www.dictionary.com, and obtained something like: Government by popular representation; a form of government in which the supreme power is retained by the people, a constitutional representative government; a republic. Just a while concentrate on the first sentence: Government by popular representation Now can't a Military represents all sort of community members? Ofcourse yes. Military may include different people living at various parts of a country. Example that of India, China or many others. Similarly Pakistani milirary comprises of people that belong to various parts of country. A referendum was held to ask the people whether they like General or not. A hype created that the referendum is non-constitutional, but the polling was crystal-clear in which people accepted General as their leader, and also independent street surveys shows that Military dictator is popular among masses. Then is it appropriate to call such government non-democratic ?? Take a glance of second sentence: a form of government in which the supreme power is retained by the people Consider two countries one where there is a democratic government which is corrupt. This country is not making any progress and going to become defaulter. The other which is ruled by a military dictator who is not much corrupt and is supported by large number of people. This country is making progress by leaps and bounds Now, is it still appropriate to support such democracy that is under the hands of currupt civil rulers and oppose the popular military regeime?? Have a look at third sentence: a constitutional representative government I think that all the democratic countries in the world today, follow certain constitution. But it is not guarantee that constitution gives you the solution of all problems. Constitution has certain scope and limited boundaries. Frequently situation arises when there is need to consult the Supreme Court of that country to find the solution. Now suppose if it is written in your constitution tha
Shamoon wrote: Now can't a Military represents all sort of community members? For a while, possibly. However, "a Military" presumes or implies a dictatorship, which is ultimately bad (my opinion, obviously). Shamoon wrote: But it is not guarantee that constitution gives you the solution of all problems. Depends on what problems worry you. The constituition of the USA is a "living" document that can be changed through a documented process. So, if and when it falls short of the peoples' needs it can be changed to address the shortfall. Shamoon wrote: Frequently situation arises when there is need to consult the Supreme Court of that country to find the solution. In the USA, this is done only to interpret an existing law in the context of the constituition. While imperfect this tends to work since Supreme Court judges are appointed for life and do not answer to a particular administration. Shamoon wrote: In a nut shell just suppose that a military rule is fully compliant with the definition of democracy, now is it justified to oppose such rule and force that country to return to democracy?? I would. Once again, the implication of military rule is dictatorship. My personal assessment of dictatorships are that the prevalent view is that the individual is "the property of the state". I would rather be shot in the street laboring against this concept than live in compliance. Now we get to one of the additions to the constituition, the 2nd amendment. This amendment give US citizens the right, a guaranteed right, to possess arms. Regardless of what anyone might say, that right is so we as American citizens can equip ourselves with fire power to protect ourselves from the military. Mike
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Christian Graus wrote: The USA has tried to do this in the past ( think Vietnam ) and failed. in all fairness, so has England, France, Portugal, Germany, Italy, Holland, Spain, Turkey, China, Japan, Egypt, etc.. it's probably easier to count the countries which haven't tried to control the innards of other countries. -c
A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking.
Chris Losinger wrote: in all fairness, so has Yes, this is true. The US has only done it more recently because they *can*, and probably done so in a more benign way than, say, the Spaniards in Mexico, for example. Or even the British in the USA. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002
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I was reading the post below that discusses the topic of Democracy in Pakistan. The thread was started by person who himself live in democratic country and replied by others who are themselves living in democratic countries. All of these people were not pleased by the military rule in Pakistan and their way of expression reflects that they like democracy. I don't know too much about Pakistan so any PAkistani CPian correct me if i am wrong. My question is that what is democracy ??? I searched www.dictionary.com, and obtained something like: Government by popular representation; a form of government in which the supreme power is retained by the people, a constitutional representative government; a republic. Just a while concentrate on the first sentence: Government by popular representation Now can't a Military represents all sort of community members? Ofcourse yes. Military may include different people living at various parts of a country. Example that of India, China or many others. Similarly Pakistani milirary comprises of people that belong to various parts of country. A referendum was held to ask the people whether they like General or not. A hype created that the referendum is non-constitutional, but the polling was crystal-clear in which people accepted General as their leader, and also independent street surveys shows that Military dictator is popular among masses. Then is it appropriate to call such government non-democratic ?? Take a glance of second sentence: a form of government in which the supreme power is retained by the people Consider two countries one where there is a democratic government which is corrupt. This country is not making any progress and going to become defaulter. The other which is ruled by a military dictator who is not much corrupt and is supported by large number of people. This country is making progress by leaps and bounds Now, is it still appropriate to support such democracy that is under the hands of currupt civil rulers and oppose the popular military regeime?? Have a look at third sentence: a constitutional representative government I think that all the democratic countries in the world today, follow certain constitution. But it is not guarantee that constitution gives you the solution of all problems. Constitution has certain scope and limited boundaries. Frequently situation arises when there is need to consult the Supreme Court of that country to find the solution. Now suppose if it is written in your constitution tha
Shamoon wrote: Is domocracy the best ???? IMHO, NO !! Shamoon wrote: My question is that what is democracy ??? There is not one example of democratic government in the world. However there are many examples of elected representatives. Shamoon wrote: I think that all the democratic countries in the world today, follow certain constitution. Hmmm, only if you class unwritten constitutions as constitutions. Democracy as we know it is a sham. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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So basically this is a scenario where people can pay for what they use. The government makes atleast as much money as it spends on roads, healthcare, education, social security, etc etc. Isn't this already the case in the US? :cool:
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Rohit Sinha wrote: So basically this is a scenario where people can pay for what they use Yes. This is the view of our libertarian party[^]. (not to be confused with the democrats who are liberal :)) I don't believe in all their strict views, but in general I do like the idea of a very limited government, with many typically government run programs turned over to private companies. Rohit Sinha wrote: Isn't this already the case in the US? No. Not as much as I would like anyway. Through taxes: I pay for education, for children I don't have. I pay for Social Security, which may or may not be around when I retire. I pay for healthcare, and additionally pay for personal health insurance. I understand the overall benefit of these being social programs for the population, it's just that its really not "pay for what you use" in a strict sense. BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
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Shamoon wrote: I don't know too much about Pakistan Hmmm. Your profile says you live in the USA. But aren't you from Pakistan?[^] Shamoon wrote: but the polling was crystal-clear in which people accepted General as their leader, and also independent street surveys shows that Military dictator is popular among masses. Links please. :zzz: Shamoon wrote: Consider two countries... You can prove anything with contrived examples. :suss: Shamoon wrote: Pakistan made more progress in Military rules than in Civilian rules. That says a lot about the Pakistani citizens. X| Shamoon wrote: Whenever military arrived in the past, people welcomed them. Could you elaborate a bit on that please? I mean why would people welcome a military rule, as opposed to their own rule? Seriously though, where are you really from? ;)
Regards,Rohit Sinha
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Rohit Sinha wrote: aren't you from Pakistan?[^] No i am not. I am Iranian living in US. Though i'he many friends here with me working so, i've excellent understanding in topic.
Shamoon wrote: I am Iranian living in US. "Evidence"[^] seems to suggest you are from Pakistan though, and that you really are Imraan Farooqui from Pakistan[^], and the id Shamoon[^] that you created is just a cover-up. :suss: You have been talking about and defending Pakistan a lot in the posts I linked to, and the use of the word "we" liberally scattered here and there does seem to suggest to me that you are from Pakistan. And the email address in the FROM field of the notification also tells me that you are indeed Imran. :suss: :suss: :suss:
Regards,Rohit Sinha
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I was reading the post below that discusses the topic of Democracy in Pakistan. The thread was started by person who himself live in democratic country and replied by others who are themselves living in democratic countries. All of these people were not pleased by the military rule in Pakistan and their way of expression reflects that they like democracy. I don't know too much about Pakistan so any PAkistani CPian correct me if i am wrong. My question is that what is democracy ??? I searched www.dictionary.com, and obtained something like: Government by popular representation; a form of government in which the supreme power is retained by the people, a constitutional representative government; a republic. Just a while concentrate on the first sentence: Government by popular representation Now can't a Military represents all sort of community members? Ofcourse yes. Military may include different people living at various parts of a country. Example that of India, China or many others. Similarly Pakistani milirary comprises of people that belong to various parts of country. A referendum was held to ask the people whether they like General or not. A hype created that the referendum is non-constitutional, but the polling was crystal-clear in which people accepted General as their leader, and also independent street surveys shows that Military dictator is popular among masses. Then is it appropriate to call such government non-democratic ?? Take a glance of second sentence: a form of government in which the supreme power is retained by the people Consider two countries one where there is a democratic government which is corrupt. This country is not making any progress and going to become defaulter. The other which is ruled by a military dictator who is not much corrupt and is supported by large number of people. This country is making progress by leaps and bounds Now, is it still appropriate to support such democracy that is under the hands of currupt civil rulers and oppose the popular military regeime?? Have a look at third sentence: a constitutional representative government I think that all the democratic countries in the world today, follow certain constitution. But it is not guarantee that constitution gives you the solution of all problems. Constitution has certain scope and limited boundaries. Frequently situation arises when there is need to consult the Supreme Court of that country to find the solution. Now suppose if it is written in your constitution tha
Your point is right, the definition you gave is not enough to describe what IMO a democraty is. The popular representation condition isn't sufficient, a democraty has also to respect moral positions, based on the Human Rights (either the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights[^] either a comparable one, as ours Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen[^])
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a Cathedral[^]. Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900-1944)
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Rohit Sinha wrote: But then why would we bother to vote if we had nothing to gain or lose? I'm obviously alluding to the Jeffersonian ideal here. The theory being that by being independent of the government for which one is voting would tend to make people vote for the public good and not out of greedy self interest. Rohit Sinha wrote: So you mean people who are not affected by which party is in power should be allowed to vote and those who are affected, those who do care, shouldn't be allowed to vote? Well, any party which derives its power from making people dependent upon it for their welfare would certainly have difficulty in my proposed democracy. All I am saying is that only free people should be allowed to participate in the democratic process. If you are a ward of the state, than you are not free, and cannot cast a free vote. In my system there would be no other barrier to voting. If you are producing more for the economy than you are consuming than you can vote. Otherwise not. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Stan Shannon wrote: Well, any party which derives its power from making people dependent upon it for their welfare would certainly have difficulty in my proposed democracy. All I am saying is that only free people should be allowed to participate in the democratic process So you consider that "free people" are the ones who think like you ? Stan Shannon wrote: If you are a ward of the state, than you are not free, and cannot cast a free vote I don't understand your reasoning. Why aren't you free if you work for the State, or even better, for the Nation ? Stan Shannon wrote: If you are producing more for the economy than you are consuming than you can vote = The richer you are the more powerful you are ?
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a Cathedral[^]. Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900-1944)
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Christian Graus wrote: The USA has tried to do this in the past ( think Vietnam ) and failed. in all fairness, so has England, France, Portugal, Germany, Italy, Holland, Spain, Turkey, China, Japan, Egypt, etc.. it's probably easier to count the countries which haven't tried to control the innards of other countries. -c
A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking.
Chris Losinger wrote: it's probably easier to count the countries which haven't tried to control the innards of other countries For the moment, I see only one, Tibet :-D
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a Cathedral[^]. Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900-1944)
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Shamoon wrote: I am Iranian living in US. "Evidence"[^] seems to suggest you are from Pakistan though, and that you really are Imraan Farooqui from Pakistan[^], and the id Shamoon[^] that you created is just a cover-up. :suss: You have been talking about and defending Pakistan a lot in the posts I linked to, and the use of the word "we" liberally scattered here and there does seem to suggest to me that you are from Pakistan. And the email address in the FROM field of the notification also tells me that you are indeed Imran. :suss: :suss: :suss:
Regards,Rohit Sinha
No, i am not Imran Farooqui, neither i know this CPian. Rohit Sinha wrote: You have been talking about and defending Pakistan a lot in the posts I linked to, Actually not. ;) I was not supporting, infact few of my coworkers in my office are Pakistanis. I show your posts to them, and typed their views. My last argument with you was also something like that. Actually, you ppl were criticising Jihad in that post so I sit with those pepole ant typed messages. You must noted that i've not yet replied to your posts here. Reason, is simple and that is i was not in office. I definitely reply posts of yours in this thread when i reach office tomorrow, after showing them your messages. Yea, email address imranf@msn.com, is mine and expired, thats why registered here at CP :-D BTW: i like the argument b/w you ppl... just kidding
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No, i am not Imran Farooqui, neither i know this CPian. Rohit Sinha wrote: You have been talking about and defending Pakistan a lot in the posts I linked to, Actually not. ;) I was not supporting, infact few of my coworkers in my office are Pakistanis. I show your posts to them, and typed their views. My last argument with you was also something like that. Actually, you ppl were criticising Jihad in that post so I sit with those pepole ant typed messages. You must noted that i've not yet replied to your posts here. Reason, is simple and that is i was not in office. I definitely reply posts of yours in this thread when i reach office tomorrow, after showing them your messages. Yea, email address imranf@msn.com, is mine and expired, thats why registered here at CP :-D BTW: i like the argument b/w you ppl... just kidding
Actually this is not happening first time with me. Some idiot previously also blamed me for creating multiple ids. Anyways thanks for informing me Mr.Democracy ;) Imran Farooqui World's first Urdu Instant Messenger[^] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Java is a tool for creating applications that torture users with its awful speed and its ugly interfaces. Daniel Turini commenting on this article
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Megan Forbes wrote: He also realised that we would continue to be greedy, even if we had everything we needed provided for us, work to keep us busy, education for our offspring, etc. I have always been amused at those who complain that capitalism is based upon greed. Human greed is inevitable in any system, as Plato observed. Capitalism merely accepts the inevitable and channels it towards productive purposes. One thing I would say about democracy is that it only works in a free market economy. No one who is dependent upon government for their welfare can ever cast a free vote. They must vote for those most likely to care for their needs. Only a person who is economically independent of government can cast a free vote, and they are the only ones who should be allowed to vote. *That* would be a true democracy. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Stan Shannon wrote: I have always been amused at those who complain that capitalism is based upon greed. Human greed is inevitable in any system, as Plato observed. Capitalism merely accepts the inevitable and channels it towards productive purposes. Very true...I just wish that as a society we were better able to curb our worst excesses. Probably an unrealisable dream, but I live in hope. Stan Shannon wrote: No one who is dependent upon government for their welfare can ever cast a free vote. They must vote for those most likely to care for their needs. I suspect this also is true of those not dependent on welfare...we all have our own self-interest in mind to one extent or another, right? Such a statement also assumes people behave in a logical and predictable manner. :laugh: Anna :rose: "Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch -
Actually this is not happening first time with me. Some idiot previously also blamed me for creating multiple ids. Anyways thanks for informing me Mr.Democracy ;) Imran Farooqui World's first Urdu Instant Messenger[^] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Java is a tool for creating applications that torture users with its awful speed and its ugly interfaces. Daniel Turini commenting on this article
Imran Farooqui wrote: Some idiot previously also blamed me for creating multiple ids. Calling someone an idiot behind his back is the lowest form of cowardice. Don't you have it in you to convince the other guy that you are what you are and remove his confusion, by whatever means? Or if you don't care, couldn't you just let it go? The fact that you hold a grudge shows that you do care, but don't have the balls to smoothen it out with him. If you read my above post to Shamoon, you will see why I got confused. So in case you are not Shamoon, my apologies. To tell you why I thought you and he were the same person: 1. His support for Pakistan and you being a Pakistani citizen. He jumps in whenever somebody says something about Pakistan, which would have been perfectly OK if he would only admit he was a Pakistani. Why else did he start this thread? 2. Both of you are muslims. 3. His email address has the initials imran f. in it, and your name is Imran Farooqui too. But in case you are indeed both Imran, and Shamoon, and whatever else, I don't understand why you are doing this, except troll (this has actually happened in the past). Anyway, forget it. I also wonder why you didn't reply to my post directly and let me know.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
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No, i am not Imran Farooqui, neither i know this CPian. Rohit Sinha wrote: You have been talking about and defending Pakistan a lot in the posts I linked to, Actually not. ;) I was not supporting, infact few of my coworkers in my office are Pakistanis. I show your posts to them, and typed their views. My last argument with you was also something like that. Actually, you ppl were criticising Jihad in that post so I sit with those pepole ant typed messages. You must noted that i've not yet replied to your posts here. Reason, is simple and that is i was not in office. I definitely reply posts of yours in this thread when i reach office tomorrow, after showing them your messages. Yea, email address imranf@msn.com, is mine and expired, thats why registered here at CP :-D BTW: i like the argument b/w you ppl... just kidding
Shamoon wrote: No, i am not Imran Farooqui, neither i know this CPian. Doh! My apologies in that case. X| Shamoon wrote: you ppl were criticising Jihad What do you think of Jihad, and why do you think it's good? I'd like to hear your views. Shamoon wrote: Yea, email address imranf@msn.com, is mine and expired, thats why registered here at CP :| Why do you have to use a fake email address here? And if you do, please continue to do it for as long as you wish, by all means, but please don't forget to uncheck the "Notify me by email if someone answers this message" checkbox at the bottom. X|
Regards,Rohit Sinha
